Scandal Tom Wills - not a good guy?

[Ron The Bear]

Seems it's you that is triggered by it, eg trying to turn it all into a swipe at the ABC.

I've already stated that it's possible Wills was involved in reprisals. I very much doubt we'll ever know. There is documented evidence that he recuperated at a nearby station while the initial raid was conducted, and that later justice was meted out by the Queensland Native Police. I also doubt Wills would've felt any remorse whatsoever at the Aboriginal deaths, as asserted by one of those quoted.

No, I'm not a huge fan of Russell Jackson's work.

 

[Kwality]

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying but that doesn’t mean that this new revelation doesn’t change the way we should remember Tom Wills.

Its more about what is being recalled from our history for the majority of people, who arent interested in the detail.
Remembering Wills achievements is not the endorsement of his life as some here want it to be.

Its not as if there is a statue endorsing his life, its to do with his (dubious) role in the early days of Aussie Rules footy.

 

[SpareTowel]

The only "telling material" is the reference to the I Zingari jacket. Wills mentioned in desptaches that Zingari shirts were stolen.

The account is muddled as hell but one aspect that is interesting it describes Tom having a kind of premonition beforehand, which I'm pretty sure is an established fact. And he's away at the time with two drovers

 

[SpareTowel]

The account is muddled as hell but one aspect that is interesting it describes Tom having a kind of premonition beforehand, which I'm pretty sure is an established fact. And he's away at the time with two drovers

The writer also quotes Tom as saying there were "two friendly native trackers" there on the scene in the aftermath, which seems right. They can be seen at the bottom left in the painting of the aftermath of the massacre

 

[Ron The Bear]

The account is muddled as hell but one aspect that is interesting it describes Tom having a kind of premonition beforehand, which I'm pretty sure is an established fact. And he's away at the time with two drovers

Not sure about any premonition. His father was generally a cautious man but may have become lax regarding security after the initial friendly disposition of the locals, and prided himself on experience with Victorian Aboriginals. Tom disapproved and always carried two pistols about the station.

And yes, he went 80 miles for supplies to Albinia Downs, near Springsure... not to Melbourne.

Not aware of him expressing any premonition as such, apart from this letter.

 

[SpareTowel]

Not sure about any premonition. His father was generally a cautious man but may have beecome lax regarding security after the initial friendly disposition of the locals and prided himself on experience with Victorian Aboriginals. Tom disapproved and always carried two pistols about the station.

Not aware of him expressing any premonition as such, apart from this letter.

I'll try find the source but I remember reading that pretty much everyone there had a sense of foreboding, and Tom sensed something was wrong

 

[conrad_437]

Historians say there's no evidence of this or Wills even witnessing a game. There's further evidence that Wills influence on the creation of the sport is in fact minimal.
This whole thing is a very recent connection by afl to gloss over a terrible record of treating ppl of non Anglo background.
Fact protagonist is now linked to these claims is fitting beyond belief

Historians say there's no evidence of this or Wills even witnessing a game.

Does no evidence of a then-child in Tom Wills participating (or witnessing) in marngrook, which was clearly prevalent across the Western Victorian region during the 1840s point to the fact that it never happened?

This whole thing is a very recent connection by afl to gloss over a terrible record of treating ppl of non Anglo background.

Yes, European settlers treated Aboriginies poorly during this era. However, both Horatio (Tom's father) and Tom Wills were notably fond of these local communities. These instances include:
- H.C.A Harrison (Wills cousin) noted that Tom learnt Aboriginal songs, mimicked their voice and gestures, and "spoke their language as fluently as they did themselves, much to their delight" (Hibbins & Mancini, 1987)
- Horatio wrote fondly of his son's kinship with the aboriginal community and allowed local clans to hunt and live on Lexington (de Moore, 2011).
- Tom decorated his study at Rugby School with objects to remind him of Australia, including aboriginal weapons. Horatio informed him that the local aboriginal community often spoke about him: "They told me to send you up to them as soon as you came back" (De Moore, 2011).

Where does the Cullin-la-ringo massacre fall as a factor as to why Marngrook didn't influence Tom's thinking in creating the game of Aussie Rules? Especially since the rules of the game were drawn up in 1858 and Cullin-la-Ringo occurred in 1861.

 

[deanc]

I have read the whole thing. My only interest in this matter is that it expands our picture of Tom Wills. Everyone involved has acknowledged that it doesn't prove anything yet.

Seems it's you that is triggered by it, eg trying to turn it all into a swipe at the ABC.

But of course you're not an "activist".

Re swipe at the ABC - what an amazing coincidence the week the Demons are playing in a Grand Final, with an opportunity to win their first flag since 1964 that an article appears with historical references defaming the club's founder and first captain..?

Sadly, for some reason our taxpayer funded ABC has generally evolved into a platform promoting constant victimhood narratives and everything that is wrong in the World...! Even their presentation of the actual 'news' is often reinterpreted with similar spin...

 

[Aussie in exile]

There is no call or justification to pull down Wills' statue.

There has been no scrubbing of history. Knowledge is limited by the lack of permanent indigenous records. What was recorded has been preserved and is available to the interested. I suggest not too many are interested.

Rightly or wrongly i think Wills statue or any other memorial to him will suffer the same the same fate as Confederate Generals statues in the US. Like the US we have some history that we would like to erase.

 

[Pippen94]

Does no evidence of a then-child in Tom Wills participating (or witnessing) in marngrook, which was clearly prevalent across the Western Victorian region during the 1840s point to the fact that it never happened?


Yes, European settlers treated Aboriginies poorly during this era. However, both Horatio (Tom's father) and Tom Wills were notably fond of these local communities. These instances include:
- H.C.A Harrison (Wills cousin) noted that Tom learnt Aboriginal songs, mimicked their voice and gestures, and "spoke their language as fluently as they did themselves, much to their delight" (Hibbins & Mancini, 1987)
- Horatio wrote fondly of his son's kinship with the aboriginal community and allowed local clans to hunt and live on Lexington (de Moore, 2011).
- Tom decorated his study at Rugby School with objects to remind him of Australia, including aboriginal weapons. Horatio informed him that the local aboriginal community often spoke about him: "They told me to send you up to them as soon as you came back" (De Moore, 2011).

Where does the Cullin-la-ringo massacre fall as a factor as to why Marngrook didn't influence Tom's thinking in creating the game of Aussie Rules? Especially since the rules of the game were drawn up in 1858 and Cullin-la-Ringo occurred in 1861.

So no evidence he saw, played (?!) or even knew of the game.

Key term in your post is Rugby school. That's the biggest influence in creation of sport. Wills role in creation of afl is questionable at best, his connection to marngrook completely unsubstantiated.
It's a good yarn but historians will tell you the high marking aspect of afl never emerged until Wills long left this earth.

 

[Pippen94]

Re swipe at the ABC - what an amazing coincidence the week the Demons are playing in a Grand Final, with an opportunity to win their first flag since 1964 that an article appears with historical references defaming the club's founder and first captain..?

Sadly, for some reason our taxpayer funded ABC has generally evolved into a platform promoting constant victimhood narratives and everything that is wrong in the World...! Even their presentation of the actual 'news' is often reinterpreted with similar spin...

Who let the crazys in?!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Re swipe at the ABC - what an amazing coincidence the week the Demons are playing in a Grand Final, with an opportunity to win their first flag since 1964 that an article appears with historical references defaming the club's founder and first captain..?

Sadly, for some reason our taxpayer funded ABC has generally evolved into a platform promoting constant victimhood narratives and everything that is wrong in the World...! Even their presentation of the actual 'news' is often reinterpreted with similar spin...

Did you read the articles? You could not be more wrong.

Sheesh, talk about a kneejerk reaction.

 

[jwikked]

Does no evidence of a then-child in Tom Wills participating (or witnessing) in marngrook, which was clearly prevalent across the Western Victorian region during the 1840s point to the fact that it never happened?

No, but if you're going to make the claim that it DID happen and as a result was a part of the beginning of Aussie Rules - then you need to have evidence for that claim.

 

[conrad_437]

So no evidence he saw, played (?!) or even knew of the game.

Key term in your post is Rugby school. That's the biggest influence in creation of sport. Wills role in creation of afl is questionable at best, his connection to marngrook completely unsubstantiated.
It's a good yarn but historians will tell you the high marking aspect of afl never emerged until Wills long left this earth.

Plenty of evidence he was extremely close in an Aboriginal community that almost certainly played the game. It doesn’t take a genius to connect the dots. There might be no evidence to suggest that he definitively played the sport, but there is certainly no evidence to suggest that he didn’t.

You are right that early Aussie rules was certainly more associated with Rugby. But the contested elements and kicking can be closer associated with Marngrook.

My issue isn’t necessarily that you dispute the connection between the two. It’s that you have derived from recent “findings” that there is therefore no way Wills utilised marngrook in his creation of Aussie Rules because of the Cullin-la-ringo massacres. Ridiculous comment to make for the reasons I have already stipulated.

 

[conrad_437]

No, but if you're going to make the claim that it DID happen and as a result was a part of the beginning of Aussie Rules - then you need to have evidence for that claim.

I never said it DID happen. I said it was ridiculous to definitively say that it didn’t.

 

[deanc]

Did you read the articles? You could not be more wrong.

Sheesh, talk about a kneejerk reaction.

At the risk of protracting a debate, I'm not sure which aspect of my post you interpret as 'knee jerk' as I'm merely highlighting that our national broadcaster and to be fair other media outlets, have become very astute at publishing and promoting controversial stories that coincide with related major events.

Melbourne Cup is next - watch this space...

 

[Ron The Bear]

Rightly or wrongly i think Wills statue or any other memorial to him will suffer the same the same fate as Confederate Generals statues in the US. Like the US we have some history that we would like to erase.

I'd happily wager against it.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Who let the crazys in?!

It's become a putrid campaigner of a thing that is deleterious to the interests of the nation. Defunding it is a cause I could get behind.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

At the risk of protracting a debate, I'm not sure which aspect of my post you interpret as 'knee jerk' as I'm merely highlighting that our national broadcaster and to be fair other media outlets, have become very astute at publishing and promoting controversial stories that coincide with related major events.

Melbourne Cup is next - watch this space...

The aspect of your post I feel is kneejerk is you automatically deciding the ABC is trying to stir up cheap controversy on the eve of the AFL Grand Final.

It was a bit of public interest news, is all. Personally couldn't imagine a more carefully-worded item. As I said to Ron The Bear, multiple people quoted in the articles pointed out that the discovery is riddled with errors, and no-one was saying it qualifies as out-and-out proof that Wills murdered aborigines in a reprisal.

Honestly, some people see conspiracies everywhere.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It's become a putrid campaigner of a thing that is deleterious to the interests of the nation. Defunding it is a cause I could get behind.

Well you're well in the minority there mate. Still one of the most trusted organisations in Australia, and has been for years.

Could do an even better job with proper funding, of course.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Well you're well in the minority there mate. Still one of the most trusted organisations in Australia, and has been for years.

Could do an even better job with proper funding, of course.

News service is reputable but political discussion is a propaganda arm of the left-wing parties.

 

[yodellinhank]

I'll try find the source but I remember reading that pretty much everyone there had a sense of foreboding, and Tom sensed something was wrong

I'm thinking could be in the Greg De Moore book, because I've a feeling I read he thought they'd dropped their guard and his father dismissed his concerns.

 

[Lip Gallagher]

Our Neanderball loving friends over at LU are baying for blood, those that can spell anyway.

 

[SpareTowel]

I'm thinking could be in the Greg De Moore book, because I've a feeling I read he thought they'd dropped their guard and his father dismissed his concerns.

This is a quote from Tom's younger brother about their dad at Cullin la Ringo. I think it's fair to presume that even if Tom's dad was having premonitions, then so was Tom. Because by all accounts it's Tom's dad who was trying to calm his son's fears. Maybe he was putting on a brave face, as the leader of the party, but privately shared in the sense of foreboding

 

[SpareTowel]

View attachment 1243589
This is a quote from Tom's younger brother about their dad at Cullin la Ringo. I think it's fair to presume that even if Tom's dad was having premonitions, then so was Tom. Because by all accounts it's Tom's dad who was trying to calm his son's fears. Maybe he was putting on a brave face, as the leader of the party, but privately shared in the sense of foreboding

Another account from Tom's other younger brother