Was the recruitment of Lance 'Buddy' Franklin, the undoing of the Swans?

[Alphonse_]

2016 was the flag that got away for the Swans (lots of unfit players on the day, including to Buddy) and appalling umpiring . The whole narrative would be different if they won that day.

I think they still have time to challenge for the flag with Buddy, but i think a new coach and new direction is required.

Swans kids and recruiting is fine, but from what i have seen on field in the last 18 months, the players really don't respond to Horse anymore.

 

[demondavey]

Yeah so you're just starting to piss me off now. Come in here and derail a thread, just because you think your opinion overrules everyone else's. Closing the thread now, because it's just turned into your little jerk off fest over your own point of view.

Why don’t you answer my question? How was Franklin going to win a flag for Sydney?

 

[demondavey]

Thread closed, good job ruining an amicable debate

Well no it’s not, it’s still open

 

[demondavey]

Thread closed, good job ruining an amicable debate

Who promised a flag on his arrival?

 

[Shadow89]

Why don’t you answer my question? How was Franklin going to win a flag for Sydney?

It was about who he pushed out. Mitchell was a huge loss, along with Mumford to the Giants. It was also about their inability to recruit elite talent during that timeframe, given their cap was at bursting point due to Tippett and Buddy. Nowhere did I say that his lack of bringing them a flag, was the reasoning for this debate. I said their culture changing, as a result, was. If you actually read what I said instead of reaching your own conclusions, you (and others) would have realized that.

 

[Mitchell54]

Tippett was the one that hurt Sydney. If they knew they’d be getting Franklin then I doubt they would have formed out the money for Tippett. Franklin has done great for Sydney.

Franklin joining Sydney was good for Sydney and Franklin leaving Hawthorn was good for Hawthorn. It worked out as a win-win scenario imo. The results just haven’t quite come for Sydney and there’s a lot more that goes on at a footy club to blame it on the one guy. Yes, he was getting paid 1.12m a year but contributing massively to their side.

 

[UnitedWarrior93]

Sydney win the 2014 and 2016 flags and the Buddy move is an absolute success!!!! The move to get him was for winning premierships, they got there twice and failed, it happens.

Now they’re seeing the after effects and they might be down for a small period but it won’t be long.

 

[Shadow89]

Tippett was the one that hurt Sydney. If they knew they’d be getting Franklin then I doubt they would have formed out the money for Tippett. Franklin has done great for Sydney.

Franklin joining Sydney was good for Sydney and Franklin leaving Hawthorn was good for Hawthorn. It worked out as a win-win scenario imo. The results just haven’t quite come for Sydney and there’s a lot more that goes on at a footy club to blame it on the one guy. Yes, he was getting paid 1.12m a year but contributing massively to their side.

Culture does play a big part though. There's a reason why clubs like mine and yours, never pay the top players the kind of money they would get at other clubs. Sydney have had that in spades, but they let that go when they traded in names like Tippett and Buddy, at the expense of other players

 

[demondavey]

Hang in

It was about who he pushed out. Mitchell was a huge loss, along with Mumford to the Giants. It was also about their inability to recruit elite talent during that timeframe, given their cap was at bursting point due to Tippett and Buddy. Nowhere did I say that his lack of bringing them a flag, was the reasoning for this debate. I said their culture changing, as a result, was. If you actually read what I said instead of reaching your own conclusions, you (and others) would have realized that.

You said in your OP a flag was promised.

Since Sydney lost Mitchell they’ve still played finals. Post Mumford they played in two grand finals.

They’ve still got a core group who won’t go forever but who does? Nothing suggests they’ve got a poor culture at all.

 

[Mitchell54]

Culture does play a big part though. There's a reason why clubs like mine and yours, never pay the top players the kind of money they would get at other clubs. Sydney have had that in spades, but they let that go when they traded in names like Tippett and Buddy, at the expense of other players

Exactly. As far as I know Hawthorn don’t have anyone being paid over 800K per season atm. We had guys like Mitchell & Hodge take pay cuts for the greater good of the team. It’s stuff like that in which great teams are made as they sacrifice themselves to improve the team.

 

[Muddiemoose]

It was about who he pushed out. Mitchell was a huge loss, along with Mumford to the Giants. It was also about their inability to recruit elite talent during that timeframe, given their cap was at bursting point due to Tippett and Buddy. Nowhere did I say that his lack of bringing them a flag, was the reasoning for this debate. I said their culture changing, as a result, was. If you actually read what I said instead of reaching your own conclusions, you (and others) would have realized that.

Don’t think you could get much more elite than buddy and looking at Sydney’s list over the time frame they haven’t really lacked in any position

The list management team put the Swans in a fantastic position to compete and win flags it’s just unfortunate that they never managed to snag one

 

[demondavey]

Exactly. As far as I know Hawthorn don’t have anyone being paid over 800K per season atm. We had guys like Mitchell & Hodge take pay cuts for the greater good of the team. It’s stuff like that in which great teams are made as they sacrifice themselves to improve the team.

But it also doesn’t mean much considering Sydney made two GF with Buddy and Tippett. It wasn’t buddys fault they lost them.

 

[Shadow89]

Hang in

You said in your OP a flag was promised.

Since Sydney lost Mitchell they’ve still played finals. Post Mumford they played in two grand finals.

They’ve still got a core group who won’t go forever but who does? Nothing suggests they’ve got a poor culture at all.

I said 'an elusive premiership' was promised by his arrival. I didn't say by who, I didn't say it was the club that said that, I said that was the expectation. Just like Judd was supposed to propel Carlton back up the ladder and just like Gibbs was meant to be the 'cherry on top' for a contending premiership side.

That wasn't the purpose of this debate. It was not about the same old question of whether a top-end player can help deliver a flag, it was about the intention of bringing that player, and its subsequent disruption to the structure of the club. If you don't think it plays a part at all, look at 2017 where they were 0-6, and there were reports that Tippett had been like 'too bad so sad' sort of attitude, after the Grand Final. There's internal mechanisms that we don't know about, but we can see how it plays out on field. Losing half of your midfield in Mitchell and Hanneberry, along with two of your ruckmen and some fringe players, is the result of a change of culture. Certain players are prioritized while others are not. Some players may take exception to this, which can lead to a lack of 'connection' on field. That is what this discussion is about.

I don't care whether Buddy brought them a flag or not. Even if they finished bottom 4, I'd be asking the same question; has the culture of the Swans changed due to a change of direction in the senior staff/club's attitudes?

 

[Shadow89]

Don’t think you could get much more elite than buddy and looking at Sydney’s list over the time frame they haven’t really lacked in any position

The list management team put the Swans in a fantastic position to compete and win flags it’s just unfortunate that they never managed to snag one

Outside mids and a genuine ruck since 2016? Rebounding half back? Genuine second or third tall? Lack of speed and spread from the contest? Agree that you can't get more elite than Bud, but if you're not filling other holes, then it doesn't matter how elite they are, your team will still have issues. Which is what we're seeing now with players like Newman/Jetta (rebounding half backs), Rohan (a pressure forward/third tall), Hanneberry (inside/outside mid with pace when fully fit), Mitchell (extractor and extremely tenacious inside mid), Mumford (strong ruck in the contest) etc.

 

[Mitchell54]

But it also doesn’t mean much considering Sydney made two GF with Buddy and Tippett. It wasn’t buddys fault they lost them.

Never said it was Buddy’s fault. I think he was worth the cash for Sydney.

 

[Scotland]

Sydney had Pyke until the end of 2015 and then opted to trade in Sinclair for Lewis Jetta. Naismith was coming along nicely in 2016/17 then did his knee and hasn't played since. Nankervis left when he was third in line, same as Sinclair from us.

The 2016 GF side had Jack (29), Kennedy (28), Hannebery (25), Parker (24), Mitchell (23). Mitchell wanted to return to Melbourne and not be the 4th or 5th banana and they got pick 14 for him, which after some swaps with Port with their own pick 17 became 11 (Florent) and 21 (Hayward).

 

[demondavey]

Outside mids and a genuine ruck since 2016? Rebounding half back? Genuine second or third tall? Lack of speed and spread from the contest? Agree that you can't get more elite than Bud, but if you're not filling other holes, then it doesn't matter how elite they are, your team will still have issues. Which is what we're seeing now with players like Newman/Jetta (rebounding half backs), Rohan (a pressure forward/third tall), Hanneberry (inside/outside mid with pace when fully fit), Mitchell (extractor and extremely tenacious inside mid), Mumford (strong ruck in the contest) etc.

Hannebery is done and will take a bucketload of work to come back. Plenty of word around that his summer was a bit too enjoyable.

Mumford isn’t bad but he doesn’t do a lot else than at a stoppage or contest, I’ve never rated him that high. Sinclair is a very good player.

Mitchell couldn’t break in due to the inside mid numbers at the club and Hannebery wasn’t expected to drop off as he did.

Florent, Heeney, Mills, Jones, Hewett, Lloyd, Ronke, McCartin, Blakey and Papley form a more than decent young brigade.

 

[Truckosaurus]

So far, no he hasn't. This assessment may change by the end of the deal, but he was very good for them for the first half of the deal. The worry I have is that he looks like he's breaking down. I don't think I've seen him get out of a jog in the Swans games I've seen this year. If his deal is as back-loaded as reported, the Swans might be stuck with another high-priced player they can't play but have to pay.


Of course, now that I've said that look for him to tear the Eagles a new one yet again when we play Sydney.

 

[The Final Word]

No.

It's been posted 1,000 times before but the undoing of the Swans was signing Kurt Tippett.

Sydney don't sign Franklin in 2013 and they're not likely to be any better than they are now. If they don't sign Tippett and do sign Franklin the AFL probably don't panic and axe the CoLA. Most of the players Sydney have lost haven't really hurt them. Sure Tom Mitchell has been great for Hawthorn but he arrived with O'Meara and a bit of a blank canvas. Sydney still had Hannebery, Kennedy, Parker (3 AAs the year Mitchell left) and Jack so another inside mid wasn't worth a fat contract. Almost a mirror image of Josh Kennedy going the other way in 2009. Good young player but when you have Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis he's not going to have the same impact.

All of this.

Tippett was stealing a wage in 2016 and helped to force Mitchell out while not being able to crack a game despite being fit.

 

[AG]

Comparing him to 2 of the worst value for money players ever doesn't make Buddy good value for money.

Yes it does, because part of the argument is about Sydney's salary cap and how much of a % Buddy takes. Which for some reason implies we lost Mitchell, Hannebery, Mumford etc because of Buddy. I'm saying if we went back in time I'd happily offer Buddy the same contract because his output so far has been good value. However I wouldn't offer Tippett a contract and I would have traded Reid rather than keep him on big coin (with the benefit of hindsight). Had we not made those two decisions then we'd probably still have Mumford and Mitchell to play alongside Franklin. I'd also argue Hannebery wasn't good value for money based on the large contract he signed a few years ago. Which is why he was traded as a salary dump and not Franklin.

Franklin has been worth it financially and I don't see any issues with a top 5 players in the comp across 2014-2018 being paid a crap load of money.

However, as I've always said we can't really judge this deal until he retires.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

God no it was the best thing that has happened to the club, we dont get to the GF in 2014, 2016 without him.

Of course now he is 32 and his best is behind him but nothing to do with the position of the team is currently in.

Magnitude of other reasons for us being 1-5 and not likely to play finals.

 

[The King!]

tippett was more the undoing, buddy has been great. why get tippett on big $
Will there be pain the last few years maybe, was worth a punt

disaapointed we wont (more than likely) get a flag from it


the end of cola ruined us a bit, not debating its merits, but it was there when the list was assembled, club didn't prepare well enough to live without it

 

[The King!]

buddys deal in terms of dollars is not an outlier in the league either

its the sexy topic to jump on though

 

[The King!]

Buddy’s contract didn’t have anything to do with swans losing Nank
It purely came down to Richmond offering Nank the ability to be the number 1 ruck and play Sr footy

At the time he was 3rd down the pecking order at the swans and as far as I’m aware he still has a great relationship with the swans and money didn’t come into the equation

he wanted to play in vic

 

[The King!]

Culture does play a big part though. There's a reason why clubs like mine and yours, never pay the top players the kind of money they would get at other clubs. Sydney have had that in spades, but they let that go when they traded in names like Tippett and Buddy, at the expense of other players

guys like Dangerfield will play for less and make up cash with all his tv gigs helps