Where are we really?

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all seeing eye

all seeing eye

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Nov 26, 2009
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Port Adelaide
The new coach thread is running strongly, but I thought maybe we should consider the even bigger issue of where we really see ourselves in terms of a timeline to the next Premiership.

If we don't have a real fix on this, we face the dangers of ending up in a longt erm mess having to totally rebuild or alternatively living in a perpetual state of middle table finishes with the occasional finals appearance. I have changed my mind a number of times over where we really stand at the moment and cant get a real fix on our list.

Has Hinkley squeezed us dry hence the window is closing or closed?

Do we need to go back somewhat to relaunch on the next phase, change and refresh the list?

Do we push on as is, trying to squeeze the last bit out of what we have now?

This fundamental question is critical to our future and any choice we make in the next coach.
 
Things can change quickly, especially the sentiment towards the club. We saw that in 2013, we turned it around after some horrible, horrible times and I would say almost everyone of us was optimistic as to what the future held.
Now we are stuck in a rut with a coach that has proven he can't take us to the ultimate goal and it's time to move on, which really should have happened after last year's prelim humiliation.
Clean house, get the right people in to the coaches box next year and I'm sure we will be feeling a bit better about things. We still have some great young players with proven talent, so it's not all doom and gloom. They just need the right development and a fresh perspective from the coaches box. Koch needs to do his job and start to heap the pressure on Ken. Give him to round 10, if we aren't 7-3 by then, he needs to go. If we do happen to make it to 7-3, which is looking extremely unlikely, he can finish the season, but he simply cannot coach this football club next year unless we win the premiership. (1% chance of that happening) Even then I'm not sold, but he has a contract till next year so if he delivers the premiership then I guess its fair to see him finish up his contract.
 

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davesnothere said:
The window on our current game plan is closed. I still rate our list in most parts.
Click to expand...
I am not so sure about our list, was confident , but starting to see some real holes being exposed. Injuries havent help, but they have served to show the fragility of the squad in key areas.
 
We are in a space where existing to exist is acceptable to our masters (the AFL). Whilst we are owned by the same organisation that owns the competition, we will never be allowed to be more than just TV fodder with the occasional break out season. Our board is happy to tolerate mediocrity on field, especially if off-field is humming. I guess that's what you get with professional sport. I've long thought our fans are far more invested in us than either our board or management (and possibly even many players, but that's another debate).

I don't think we change this until we clear our debt and take back board control, which I guess means attracting another Allan Scott if we are to do this in the short term. Trouble with this is no benefactor is going to (a) support the dross that is our current game "plan" or (b) put up with the substandard exposure opportunities all "interstate teams" are dished up.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with our list. Yeah sure we may be down a player here or there, but which team isn't? That's the whole point of a draft and salary cap - some level of equalisation. I have seen a few entertaining games this year played by lists no better than ours. We squeeze the individual strengths out of our players and force them into manic-ball, so it is true that many of our players are not delivering what they are capable of.

It was kinda like at my last place of employment. We claimed to look for people with individual traits of excellence and getting the job done, then micro-managed them by spreadsheet and wondered why their productivity dropped off.

I think effective leadership could turn this around fairly quickly. So where is this coming from?
 
Midfield still quite capable, same with outside and flankers, but all on borrowed time.

Desperately need another mature big forward target, and more appropriately sized one on one defenders.
 
backtozero said:
Please don't start ragging on the list. The club will start thinking that Ken needs more time to build it.
Click to expand...
See where you are coming from, think we all agree that Kens time is pretty well up , short of a miracle. Just thinking if you are selling the vision to a prospective new coach, are you telling them to squeeze whats there to the max to try for the premiership now ie (a clarkson type) or are you given them the chance to rebuild slightly , restructure and implement a new game plan for a re launch at a slightly delayed timeframe.
 
We're likely a step away from a rebuild. The young core is there with Butters, Rozee, Duursma, Hayes, Jones, Mead, Georgiadis etc. The senior players are coming to the end in Gray, Dixon, Boak they deserve to be handled with respect if we commit to a proper rebuild.

The problem is where and how do you rebuild? We have a chairman who won't admit to a rebuild. He's still hung up on we've won a lot of games the past 2 years, and he will not admit that Hinkley has ultimately failed. He said as much on 5aa this morning. His ego won't allow it, it's becoming a problem for us as a footy club. 2013/14 Koch had credits in the bank, and he deserves credit for financially helping the club. But from the INXS moment of 2015 Koch has burnt every single credit he has, and continues to with his media statements like this morning. That's a massive issue for us in the direction we take as a club. Will.the chairman lead it or will he go down with the Titanic so to speak?

As for the coach, it's clear to everyone Hinkley's message is getting lost on the players now. It's been 9 seasons and 2 games eventually the message will become stale no matter how much the players love him. Time comes for everyone and everything and ultimately time has come for Hinkley. His most rusted on supporters via Facebook pages etc have seen it, there is no turning back for him now. He either has to see it himself, or Koch and the board do. I think Snowden will see it before the other established board members do, but I doubt he'll get the support to act as decisively as required.

Hinkley has had every chance, and every assistant required to achieve the ultimate success with Walsh, Richo, Voss, Schofield etc. He as a coach as the buck stops there has failed. 2013 & 14 he had turned us around and we were headed places it appeared post the 2014 Preliminary Final loss. Problem was the signs were there of what we have ultimately become under him in 2014. A team that fails in the biggest of moments. We sat 10-1 at the midway point of 2014, with a list at its peak with young up and coming superstars in Wingard and Wines behind them. We subsequently finished 14-8 and missed top 4, made a run in the finals but we blew it. People look back fondly on 2014 and the finals run we had, I don't. We wasted a chance to win a Premiership from top spot. Something that has happened more recently. We roared into 2015 as a flag favourite, a hot ticket item in the competition. We flamed out relatively quickly that year and into the wilderness from 15-2019. The signs we're seeing now 2 rounds in have already happened in those years. We added Dixon, Ryder, Motlop, Rockliff, Watts and other senior players in that period to top up for Ken, it didn't work. We stayed middle of the road during 2015-2019. We started a mini rebuild when we traded Wingard (as apparently it was all his fault not the coach's), Polec, Pittard and others and bought in elite young talent or so it seemed in Butters, Duursma & Rozee amongst others. Butters seemingly the only elite onw of the the three now with Rozee tracking like Wingard, and Duursma flattering to deceive. We lifted in 2020 & 2021 to home preliminary finals, after squandering a finals spot in 2019 to a Ben Brown lead North Melbourne. But ultimately the 2014 ghosts appeared in home preliminary finals losing to a Dusty lead Richmond (no shame in that) and a annihilation at the hands of the Bulldogs that has bled all over summer into season 2022.

Ken's time has come, otherwise we will make the same mistake, with the same ending as evidenced over the history of Ken's reign. A fresh message is needed for the players & the supporters before it bleeds into membership numbers and financial numbers which we have seen before in 2011/12.

As for a replacement there are three ready made coaches in Clarkson, Lyon & Buckley all who would bring a level of excitement and ruthlessness required at our club. We could go down the Schofield route or other highly rated assistants like Yze etc but we have to make the first move to start walking down the path. The longer we stand still as a club at board level the harder it will become.

Sorry for the monologue and I hope it reads as well as it did in my head, but that's my thoughts on the current situation of our club.
 
AdamMarrett said:
We're likely a step away from a rebuild. The young core is there with Butters, Rozee, Duursma, Hayes, Jones, Mead, Georgiadis etc. The senior players are coming to the end in Gray, Dixon, Boak they deserve to be handled with respect if we commit to a proper rebuild.

The problem is where and how do you rebuild? We have a chairman who won't admit to a rebuild. He's still hung up on we've won a lot of games the past 2 years, and he will not admit that Hinkley has ultimately failed. He said as much on 5aa this morning. His ego won't allow it, it's becoming a problem for us as a footy club. 2013/14 Koch had credits in the bank, and he deserves credit for financially helping the club. But from the INXS moment of 2015 Koch has burnt every single credit he has, and continues to with his media statements like this morning. That's a massive issue for us in the direction we take as a club. Will.the chairman lead it or will he go down with the Titanic so to speak?

As for the coach, it's clear to everyone Hinkley's message is getting lost on the players now. It's been 9 seasons and 2 games eventually the message will become stale no matter how much the players love him. Time comes for everyone and everything and ultimately time has come for Hinkley. His most rusted on supporters via Facebook pages etc have seen it, there is no turning back for him now. He either has to see it himself, or Koch and the board do. I think Snowden will see it before the other established board members do, but I doubt he'll get the support to act as decisively as required.

Hinkley has had every chance, and every assistant required to achieve the ultimate success with Walsh, Richo, Voss, Schofield etc. He as a coach as the buck stops there has failed. 2013 & 14 he had turned us around and we were headed places it appeared post the 2014 Preliminary Final loss. Problem was the signs were there of what we have ultimately become under him in 2014. A team that fails in the biggest of moments. We sat 10-1 at the midway point of 2014, with a list at its peak with young up and coming superstars in Wingard and Wines behind them. We subsequently finished 14-8 and missed top 4, made a run in the finals but we blew it. People look back fondly on 2014 and the finals run we had, I don't. We wasted a chance to win a Premiership from top spot. Something that has happened more recently. We roared into 2015 as a flag favourite, a hot ticket item in the competition. We flamed out relatively quickly that year and into the wilderness from 15-2019. The signs we're seeing now 2 rounds in have already happened in those years. We added Dixon, Ryder, Motlop, Rockliff, Watts and other senior players in that period to top up for Ken, it didn't work. We stayed middle of the road during 2015-2019. We started a mini rebuild when we traded Wingard (as apparently it was all his fault not the coach's), Polec, Pittard and others and bought in elite young talent or so it seemed in Butters, Duursma & Rozee amongst others. Butters seemingly the only elite onw of the the three now with Rozee tracking like Wingard, and Duursma flattering to deceive. We lifted in 2020 & 2021 to home preliminary finals, after squandering a finals spot in 2019 to a Ben Brown lead North Melbourne. But ultimately the 2014 ghosts appeared in home preliminary finals losing to a Dusty lead Richmond (no shame in that) and a annihilation at the hands of the Bulldogs that has bled all over summer into season 2022.

Ken's time has come, otherwise we will make the same mistake, with the same ending as evidenced over the history of Ken's reign. A fresh message is needed for the players & the supporters before it bleeds into membership numbers and financial numbers which we have seen before in 2011/12.

As for a replacement there are three ready made coaches in Clarkson, Lyon & Buckley all who would bring a level of excitement and ruthlessness required at our club. We could go down the Schofield route or other highly rated assistants like Yze etc but we have to make the first move to start walking down the path. The longer we stand still as a club at board level the harder it will become.

Sorry for the monologue and I hope it reads as well as it did in my head, but that's my thoughts on the current situation of our club.
Click to expand...
Pretty considered response , all agree we need a real refresh as the messaging has become stale. Surely the players are starting to feel that to. However there is a real diversity of opinions around the next coach, which goes to show the real challenge the club has in making the correct decision. I for one don't have much confidence in Koch doing it. Whatever, the next appointment is absolutely critical for the club to get right, if we f**k it up, it could set us back years.
 

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AdamMarrett said:
We're likely a step away from a rebuild. The young core is there with Butters, Rozee, Duursma, Hayes, Jones, Mead, Georgiadis etc. The senior players are coming to the end in Gray, Dixon, Boak they deserve to be handled with respect if we commit to a proper rebuild.

The problem is where and how do you rebuild? We have a chairman who won't admit to a rebuild. He's still hung up on we've won a lot of games the past 2 years, and he will not admit that Hinkley has ultimately failed. He said as much on 5aa this morning. His ego won't allow it, it's becoming a problem for us as a footy club. 2013/14 Koch had credits in the bank, and he deserves credit for financially helping the club. But from the INXS moment of 2015 Koch has burnt every single credit he has, and continues to with his media statements like this morning. That's a massive issue for us in the direction we take as a club. Will.the chairman lead it or will he go down with the Titanic so to speak?

As for the coach, it's clear to everyone Hinkley's message is getting lost on the players now. It's been 9 seasons and 2 games eventually the message will become stale no matter how much the players love him. Time comes for everyone and everything and ultimately time has come for Hinkley. His most rusted on supporters via Facebook pages etc have seen it, there is no turning back for him now. He either has to see it himself, or Koch and the board do. I think Snowden will see it before the other established board members do, but I doubt he'll get the support to act as decisively as required.

Hinkley has had every chance, and every assistant required to achieve the ultimate success with Walsh, Richo, Voss, Schofield etc. He as a coach as the buck stops there has failed. 2013 & 14 he had turned us around and we were headed places it appeared post the 2014 Preliminary Final loss. Problem was the signs were there of what we have ultimately become under him in 2014. A team that fails in the biggest of moments. We sat 10-1 at the midway point of 2014, with a list at its peak with young up and coming superstars in Wingard and Wines behind them. We subsequently finished 14-8 and missed top 4, made a run in the finals but we blew it. People look back fondly on 2014 and the finals run we had, I don't. We wasted a chance to win a Premiership from top spot. Something that has happened more recently. We roared into 2015 as a flag favourite, a hot ticket item in the competition. We flamed out relatively quickly that year and into the wilderness from 15-2019. The signs we're seeing now 2 rounds in have already happened in those years. We added Dixon, Ryder, Motlop, Rockliff, Watts and other senior players in that period to top up for Ken, it didn't work. We stayed middle of the road during 2015-2019. We started a mini rebuild when we traded Wingard (as apparently it was all his fault not the coach's), Polec, Pittard and others and bought in elite young talent or so it seemed in Butters, Duursma & Rozee amongst others. Butters seemingly the only elite onw of the the three now with Rozee tracking like Wingard, and Duursma flattering to deceive. We lifted in 2020 & 2021 to home preliminary finals, after squandering a finals spot in 2019 to a Ben Brown lead North Melbourne. But ultimately the 2014 ghosts appeared in home preliminary finals losing to a Dusty lead Richmond (no shame in that) and a annihilation at the hands of the Bulldogs that has bled all over summer into season 2022.

Ken's time has come, otherwise we will make the same mistake, with the same ending as evidenced over the history of Ken's reign. A fresh message is needed for the players & the supporters before it bleeds into membership numbers and financial numbers which we have seen before in 2011/12.

As for a replacement there are three ready made coaches in Clarkson, Lyon & Buckley all who would bring a level of excitement and ruthlessness required at our club. We could go down the Schofield route or other highly rated assistants like Yze etc but we have to make the first move to start walking down the path. The longer we stand still as a club at board level the harder it will become.

Sorry for the monologue and I hope it reads as well as it did in my head, but that's my thoughts on the current situation of our club.
Click to expand...
Solid take.

I worry that rebuilding is something the board will seek to delay for as long as it possibly can, because they're deathly afraid of what a couple of years in the bottom 4-6 will do to the casual fans they've been prioritising for a decade. If the Koch-led board doesn't go with Hinkley, he/they may fight it all the more desperately, clinging to his/their remaining "legacy" of the club's financial recovery.

But a traditional rebuild will be absolutely necessary, eventually. Not just because we'll soon lose aging talent like Boak, Gray, and Dixon, and fixtures (as distinct from talent) like Jonas, but because our approach to list management since ~2014 has proven flawed.

We do not have enough tall talent up forward or down back. With the exception of Dixon and Aliir, we have not been able to find it by recruiting established players. Nor have we held high enough draft picks in most years to nab the best talls; instead "optimising" through the selection of best available talls with late first rounders in drafts with weaker tall stocks. Even when we did hold an aggressive draft hand, we opted for Rozee, Butters, and Duursma; all of whom should be in the core of our team for years to come, but none of whom we can build a line around in the way that teams might around one of the King brothers.
 
Heres our U25 team according to SEN.



We really aren't in bad shape. Aliir isnt much older. Just need to fill a few holes. If one of Vinsentininor Lord comes on it looks even better.

Your club's best 22 players under 25 heading into 2022

What does the future look like at your club?
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au

FB: Lachie Jones / Jake Pasini / Martin Frederick
HB: Josh Sinn / Sam Skinner / Dan Houston
C: Xavier Duursma / Willem Drew / Miles Bergman
HF: Connor Rozee / Todd Marshall / Kane Farrell
FF: Dylan Williams / Mitch Georgiades / Jed McEntee
Fol: Sam Hayes / Zak Butters / Sam Powell-Pepper
I/C: Jackson Mead / Hugh Jackson / Dante Visentini / Jase Burgoyne
 
agmsy said:
Solid take.

I worry that rebuilding is something the board will seek to delay for as long as it possibly can, because they're deathly afraid of what a couple of years in the bottom 4-6 will do to the casual fans they've been prioritising for a decade. If the Koch-led board doesn't go with Hinkley, he/they may fight it all the more desperately, clinging to his/their remaining "legacy" of the club's financial recovery.

But a traditional rebuild will be absolutely necessary, eventually. Not just because we'll soon lose aging talent like Boak, Gray, and Dixon, and fixtures (as distinct from talent) like Jonas, but because our approach to list management since ~2014 has proven flawed.

We do not have enough tall talent up forward or down back. With the exception of Dixon and Aliir, we have not been able to find it by recruiting established players. Nor have we held high enough draft picks in most years to nab the best talls; instead "optimising" through the selection of best available talls with late first rounders in drafts with weaker tall stocks. Even when we did hold an aggressive draft hand, we opted for Rozee, Butters, and Duursma; all of whom should be in the core of our team for years to come, but none of whom we can build a line around in the way that teams might around one of the King brothers.
Click to expand...
That's where I think seasons 2015-2019 are ultimately hurting us now. We didn't bottom out enough to get to the elite talent in the draft where we'd find the Petracca's, Bontempelli's etc. Hindsight we should've taken King over Rozee with his upside in comparison. We stayed middle of the road in 2015-19 where we can't get to the elite talent in the draft and we have suffered for that.

Our recruiting team is arguably our best asset with the kids they've bought to the club. Then it becomes a development issue to get the best out of them. That's where we ultimately fall short. Wines has developed into what we thought he'd be, a credit to him. Butters seems to be to, he's out next star I feel. Then you hit Rozee, Wingard, Duursma and others that started like houses on fire and for various reasons being injury, lack of doing the hard work like Boak and Wines haven't kicked on.

I think with the inevitable coaching change we need to look at the development side of our coaching as well to get the best out of the talented kids we have and will get.
 
Enviable Tradition said:
Heres our U25 team according to SEN.



We really aren't in bad shape. Aliir isnt much older. Just need to fill a few holes. If one of Vinsentininor Lord comes on it looks even better.

Your club's best 22 players under 25 heading into 2022

What does the future look like at your club?
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au

FB: Lachie Jones / Jake Pasini / Martin Frederick
HB: Josh Sinn / Sam Skinner / Dan Houston
C: Xavier Duursma / Willem Drew / Miles Bergman
HF: Connor Rozee / Todd Marshall / Kane Farrell
FF: Dylan Williams / Mitch Georgiades / Jed McEntee
Fol: Sam Hayes / Zak Butters / Sam Powell-Pepper
I/C: Jackson Mead / Hugh Jackson / Dante Visentini / Jase Burgoyne
Click to expand...

Midfield is good, albeit with an untried ruckman.

Backline - smalls are good, talls are s**t/untried.

Forward line is ghastly with only Georgiades likely to end up AFL standard.

Recruiting priorities - key defenders, forwards.
 
The talent is there apart from a few gaps that every list has and needs to cover, noticably kpd and a goal kicking midfielder.
Problem is with hinkley in charge we don't play to the strengths of our players and everyone needs to play at their absolute peak with a few players going to God mode for us to beat a decent team. Look what happens to our forward line when our 31yo full forward gets injured. Heaven forbid we plan for the future around the 3 mobile talls also sitting in the forward line being used as crumbers.
We need a reliable system where players play to their role and those roles are actually useful not some stupid defensive high half forward or other pseudo netball crap that you sit your best player in to do shuttle runs for 4qtrs
The dynasty teams seem like they were all filled with superstars in retrospect but were good solid reliable players to begin with.
 
JayPea14 said:
Our list needs a fresh face to lead it...so many players going backwards
Click to expand...
This is spot on. With such poor leadership, at pretty much every level of the club it's impossible to assess where we're at and the damage it's already caused e.g. development of younger players.
 
Enviable Tradition said:
Heres our U25 team according to SEN.



We really aren't in bad shape. Aliir isnt much older. Just need to fill a few holes. If one of Vinsentininor Lord comes on it looks even better.

Your club's best 22 players under 25 heading into 2022

What does the future look like at your club?
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au

FB: Lachie Jones / Jake Pasini / Martin Frederick
HB: Josh Sinn / Sam Skinner / Dan Houston
C: Xavier Duursma / Willem Drew / Miles Bergman
HF: Connor Rozee / Todd Marshall / Kane Farrell
FF: Dylan Williams / Mitch Georgiades / Jed McEntee
Fol: Sam Hayes / Zak Butters / Sam Powell-Pepper
I/C: Jackson Mead / Hugh Jackson / Dante Visentini / Jase Burgoyne
Click to expand...

We can buy a forward. For under 25 I’d take that .
 
It is time to get rid of Koch because until he goes Ken stays. The question is how? It isn't like the old times when Members had the right to elect the Board they wanted. These days we are at the mercy of AFL approved appointments. Well, at least that seems to be the way it happens. No one has been open about how Koch became Chairman of the Board.

About the only way to oust Koch and consequently Ken is to confront the AFL machine by staging a public rally and demonstration which would be a sad way of achieving change in a once proud Club.
 
tumblr_lp6ci1Ofmc1qapfvgo7_400.gif
 
raptalia said:
It is time to get rid of Koch because until he goes Ken stays. The question is how? It isn't like the old times when Members had the right to elect the Board they wanted. These days we are at the mercy of AFL approved appointments. Well, at least that seems to be the way it happens. No one has been open about how Koch became Chairman of the Board.

About the only way to oust Koch and consequently Ken is to confront the AFL machine by staging a public rally and demonstration which would be a sad way of achieving change in a once proud Club.
Click to expand...
A few Sqiloianare benefactors willing to wipe our debt on condition that the board is replaced and Hinkley goes would probably do the trick.

Anyone here know any of those ?
 
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