Banter Who will be better in 2024? Carlton or Collingwood?

[Wosh]

Mainly here so we can enjoy the LOLs afterwards at the end of 2023, but also an interesting discussion point.

I’m in genuine two minds and can’t call it, but who do you see finishing higher in 2023?

Who is positioned better from a list/team perspective?

Let the games begin…

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Thank you.

 

[manicpie]

This is really useful info.

I'm gonna write it down somewhere for next time.

-Carlton supporter

Good to see a pussy on here from time to time.

 

[manicpie]

This is really useful info.

I'm gonna write it down somewhere for next time.

-Carlton supporter

On a serious note, would love your opinion on who will finish higher between us two, but you have to factor in our lack of teef and Carlton's brown paper bag

 

[PizzaPie]

H&A season ladder positions is one objective measure.
Season positions inclusive of finals results is another objective measure.
Both are used by the AFL for official purposes.
Fans arguing on the internet can take their pick, and if they state which measure they're using it's not an opinion. When morons shoe horn one or the other into their own irrelevant, made up 'category' to invalidate an objective measure and its official use cases, well.... that's how lives are wasted filling 400 pages of the internet debating each other but never the same thing like a bunch of madmen yelling at a fence.

It's what separates us from the animals.

 

[Attempted Moustache]

If we’re going back that far Carlton “won” premierships in 1914-15 and 1945, war years all.

I wonder were the players given premiership medallions or white feathers for their achievements?

They also bribed some of our players to play dead in the 1910 grand final.

 

[manicpie]

If we’re going back that far Carlton “won” premierships in 1914-15 and 1945, war years all.

I wonder were the players given premiership medallions or white feathers for their achievements?

I haven't seen you before but I love your username

 

[Mr Meow]

On a serious note, would love your opinion on who will finish higher between us two, but you have to factor in our lack of teef and Carlton's brown paper bag

It's actually a really tough one.

Looking through the squads, Carlton's still looks a bit stronger. I've had them finishing 4th right from pre-season through to now.

But there's no doubting Collingwood have located their mojo and their momentum will be a force. And the depth is looking quite good too. I think unless JDG finds his very best 2023 form there will be some midfield question marks given Mitchell is declining/injured - was 2023 his last hoorah?

It honestly could just come down to whoever wins the H&A rematch. Collingwood 3rd and Carlton 4th is where my recent ladder predictor had things, I think based on choosing Collingwood in that result. The premiers are still backed until dethroned, I reckon. 2nd vs 3rd with a QF face off would be the AFL's dream.

 

[manicpie]

It's actually a really tough one.

Looking through the squads, Carlton's still looks a bit stronger. I've had them finishing 4th right from pre-season through to now.

But there's no doubting Collingwood have located their mojo and their momentum will be a force. And the depth is looking quite good too. I think unless JDG finds his very best 2023 form there will be some midfield question marks given Mitchell is declining/injured - was 2023 his last hoorah?

It honestly could just come down to whoever wins the H&A rematch. Collingwood 3rd and Carlton 4th is where my recent ladder predictor had things, I think based on choosing Collingwood in that result. The premiers are still backed until dethroned, I reckon. 2nd vs 3rd with a QF face off would be the AFL's dream.

Ok, I need another cat for my poor lonesome one, would you like to find a new home

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

If we’re going back that far Carlton “won” premierships in 1914-15 and 1945, war years all.

I wonder were the players given premiership medallions or white feathers for their achievements?

People needed some cheering up during wartime mate. I have no problems with Carlton winning the flag in those years.

Collingwood took part in those seasons as well, so what you're saying doesn't make much sense at all.

 

[manicpie]

I just read that dwelling in the past is Depression and worrying about the future is anxiety. That means we need to stay in the present, so I have NFI

 

[CarmenSandiego]

We have the worst injury management in the league. Assuming that won’t get fixed this year, I’m officially tipping Collingwood to pip us.

We will be 5th-8th again, maybe lower if injuries get worse.

 

[PizzaPie]

I just read that dwelling in the past is Depression and worrying about the future is anxiety. That means we need to stay in the present, so I have NFI

Time is just a word made up by people and given a meaning so as to be able to communicate with languages made up by other such words and their meanings.
It's bullshit, if we have to stay in the present why does time keep going and who decided on that in the first place. If we all just agree to pause it we'll beat it and reveal the conspiracy but no one will believe me.

 

[Chief]

I just read that dwelling in the past is Depression and worrying about the future is anxiety. That means we need to stay in the present, so I have NFI

Excessively.

 

[manicpie]

We have the worst injury management in the league. Assuming that won’t get fixed this year, I’m officially tipping Collingwood to pip us.

We will be 5th-8th again, maybe lower if injuries get worse.

Geez Carmen, it's early days. I think both sides have the systems and processes to overcome this problem. Trust in your game plan because it goes a long way towards being successful

 

[manicpie]

Excessively.

Touche

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Geez Carmen, it's early days. I think both sides have the systems and processes to overcome this problem. Trust in your game plan because it goes a long way towards being successful

You can get through a stretch of games with a long injury list, but not a full season + finals.

There's been nothing to suggest our injury list will get shorter, players come back then just get injured again, or they come back and someone else gets injured.

Pies have found their groove, not sure if they'll win the whole thing (McStay going down hurts) but they'll be more of a threat than us imo.

 

[Robertio]

Total games won in 2023 after completion of the finals series:
21 Collingwood
19 Brisbane
17 Port Adelaide
16 Melbourne
15 Carlton, GWS
13 St Kilda
12 Sydney

Hmmmmm....

Absolutely pointless

 

[JustaBattler]

Total games won in 2023 after completion of the finals series:
21 Collingwood
19 Brisbane
17 Port Adelaide
16 Melbourne
15 Carlton, GWS
13 St Kilda
12 Sydney

Hmmmmm....

Total games won by fluke or umpire assisted after the completion of the 2023 finals series

Collingwood 21


see how easy it is to be just silly as you?

hmmm?

 

[Fadge]

Total games won by fluke or umpire assisted after the completion of the 2023 finals series

Collingwood 21


see how easy it is to be just silly as you?

hmmm?

Ironically, Carlton won more games by fluke or umpire assistance than Collingwood did in 2023, and still finished miles behind in our wake....

Dissentgate v. GWS
Petracca goal / non goal
Port resting half their team in preparation for the Pies clash
Pies dead rubber
Opponents kicking themselves out of a win in BOTH finals.

Hmmm....

 

[JustaBattler]

Ironically, Carlton won more games by fluke or umpire assistance than Collingwood did in 2023, and still finished miles behind in our wake....

Dissentgate v. GWS
Petracca goal / non goal
Port resting half their team in preparation for the Pies clash
Pies dead rubber
Opponents kicking themselves out of a win in BOTH finals.

Hmmm....

more blather and nasty - so boring fudgey so so so boring.

 

[Cyclops]

They also bribed some of our players to play dead in the 1910 grand final.

Nah that was South.

The stuff about the brewery is bulldust, CUB was formed by an Austrian called Carl Pinschoff who was a patron of the arts, not footy, and in the 30's I think the chairman was one of the Baillieu's who are Geelong supporters.

Jock McHale was a foreman at the Victoria Brewery IIRC and got many of the players jobs there, which shows how hard working and sensible they were .

The Pies also didn't pay players more than anyone else, in fact there was a flat rate of 3 quid a game (later raised to 5 quid). Quite a few players actually left the club for better pay, a Pannam went to Richmond, One of the Colliers left for a bit, and Des Fothergill and Ron Todd went to the VFA (Todd was offered a startling bonus of a pound a goal, and he kicked 188!). For our younger readers, those were big names: its like Trav Cloke, Pendles, JDG, Darcy Moore and Nick Daicos all left the club in a decade or so.

Wealthy supporters would help out players in need, eg John Wren, but of course this was interpreted as some sort of shady business. There was no salary cap, Collingwood was a poor club and we paid less than most.

Many Pies also worked in the numerous boot factories, and Lou Richards had a non-Collingwood boss who insisted he work Saturday mornings, meaning he had to sprint to catch the bus for Geelong games as they knocked off at 12.30.

Like many stories the furphy that Collingwood used its brewery connections corruptly sounds good but doesn't survive any sort of scrutiny.

 

[Cyclops]

People needed some cheering up during wartime mate. I have no problems with Carlton winning the flag in those years.

Collingwood took part in those seasons as well, so what you're saying doesn't make much sense at all.

We won one in 1917 when the whole conscription debate was raging. Catholics (Mannix, his ally Wren, so by association Collingwood) were being pilloried for disloyalty to the Protestant Empire, but oddly Fitzroy (a true Protestant pillar) got no stick for fielding a side in 1916 when most shut down, or for winning a flag. The Pies actual sent a fair load of volunteers, despite politically opposing conscription.

WW2 everyone pitched in and supported conscription, that was agreed by nearly all factions and creeds.

My old man called most of the war flags "firemens and policemen's flags" and Richmond (a lot of police) Essendon (cops and firemen and public servants) and Melbourne (loads of private schoolboys in essential trades like stockbroker and architect) did well. No disgrace to Tigers and Bombers, they were essential workers. Bluey Truscott and Barrassi snr do a lot of heavy lifting to keep Melbourne from disgrace.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Nah that was South.

The stuff about the brewery is bulldust, CUB was formed by an Austrian called Carl Pinschoff who was a patron of the arts, not footy, and in the 30's I think the chairman was one of the Baillieu's who are Geelong supporters.

Jock McHale was a foreman at the Victoria Brewery IIRC and got many of the players jobs there, which shows how hard working and sensible they were .

The Pies also didn't pay players more than anyone else, in fact there was a flat rate of 3 quid a game (later raised to 5 quid). Quite a few players actually left the club for better pay, a Pannam went to Richmond, One of the Colliers left for a bit, and Des Fothergill and Ron Todd went to the VFA (Todd was offered a startling bonus of a pound a goal, and he kicked 188!).

Wealthy supporters would help out players in need, eg John Wren, but of course this was interpreted as some sort of shady business. There was no salary cap, Collingwood was a poor club and we paid less than most.

Many Pies also worked in the numerous boot factories, and Lou Richards had a non-Collingwood boss who insisted he work Saturday mornings, meaning he had to sprint to catch the bus for Geelong games as they knocked off at 12.30.

Like many stories the furphy that Collingwood used its brewery connections corruptly sounds good but doesn't survive any sort of scrutiny.

With regards to that bit about John Wren, well i think it is fair to say that John Wren was a very shady character by all accounts.

I think he had links to the Melbourne gangland fraternity as well. We're not in much of a position to point fingers there i suppose.

The grandfather of the infamous Moran brothers was a doorman at Carlton for many years. We even loaned out one of our premiership flags for Mark Morans funeral as well!

I think they kept that flag for a years as well! Apparently the Morans thought it was theirs for keeps!

 

[Cyclops]

Yes we're now time travelling back to World War One.

With regards to that bit about John Wren, well i think it is fair to say that John Wren was a very shady character by all accounts.

I think he had links to the Melbourne gangland fraternity as well. We're not in much of a position to point fingers there i suppose.

The grandfather of the infamous Moran brothers was a doorman at Carlton for many years. We even loaned out one of our premiership flags for Mark Morans funeral as well!

I think they kept that flag for a years as well! Apparently the Morans thought it was theirs for keeps!

Wren was an SP bookie, no more or less. He was so good at his job he got shopfront gambling legalised.

He probably bribed cops in his early days, but the lies Frank Hardy repeated in power Without Glory was communist propaganda cooked up as part of the 1950's split in the Labor Party: Wren was a powerbroker of the Catholic Right of Labor, opposed to communist infiltration.

Hardy claimed "West" (who represents Wren in the book) organized numerous murders: the thinly veiled identities of the victims turned out to be people whose families he aided after they died IRL.

The parallel with Eddie McGuire is not far off. He was an influential and very successful businessman, much bagged in the press. Wren was a much lower profile person, with a much bigger empire including public shows, pony tracks and business ventures (with the top end of town, Baillieus and Myers and so on), and in the early 20th century being Catholic was a cause for suspicion for gutter press, like Jews or Muslims these days. "A Catholic with money? I wonder how he got that?"

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

We won one in 1917 when the whole conscription debate was raging. Catholics (Mannix, his ally Wren, so by association Collingwood) were being pilloried for disloyalty to the Protestant Empire, but oddly Fitzroy (a true Protestant pillar) got no stick for fielding a side in 1916 when most shut down, or for winning a flag. The Pies actual sent a fair load of volunteers, despite politically opposing conscription.

WW2 everyone pitched in and supported conscription, that was agreed by nearly all factions and creeds.

My old man called most of the war flags "firemens and policemen's flags" and Richmond (a lot of police) Essendon (cops and firemen and public servants) and Melbourne (loads of private schoolboys in essential trades like stockbroker and architect) did well. No disgrace to Tigers and Bombers, they were essential workers. Bluey Truscott and Barrassi snr do a lot of heavy lifting to keep Melbourne from disgrace.

Hmm and i thought Fitzoy were a working class Irish/Catholic club. I always saw Melbourne and Essendon back in the day as the clubs of the ruling Anglo/Protestant elite.

 

[Robertio]

Ironically, Carlton won more games by fluke or umpire assistance than Collingwood did in 2023, and still finished miles behind in our wake....

Dissentgate v. GWS
Petracca goal / non goal
Port resting half their team in preparation for the Pies clash
Pies dead rubber
Opponents kicking themselves out of a win in BOTH finals.

Hmmm....

We're dealing with a child here, anyway Port resting half their side means it was a meaningless game for them doesn't it?