Why we are where we are at

[Noidnadroj]

We're done. We gambled, we lost and we lost worse than you could ever imagine. We get one good game out of Taranto or Hopper each week, but never one out of both of them and it's cost us our short term future.

We haven't had a good group of young players since Baker, Balta and Bolton who are all approaching their mid 20's. We're hopeful with Gibcus and Cumberland will be okay. But Sonsie, HRS, Ross and Clarke are way, way off it. There was a reason Sonsie was subbed - he was awful. The plan 100% would have been to sub Soldo or Miller, but Sonsie was that bad he demanded the sub. Clarke then came on and did regular Clarke things like burn the footy inside 50 and have his tackles broken like he was never there.

In saying this. It's to play the kids. Get Cotch to 300 and then retire him.

This will be my last post relating to TT and Hopper. Take me through our midfield from 2025 onwards post- Cotch, Prestia and Dusty if we don’t get TT and Hooper.

It’s: Graham, Bolton, Ross, Sonsie, Dow and a couple of draftees who may or may not become elite.

If we miss with the draft picks we gave for TT and Hopper (as we did with C Ellis, Dow, RCD, Martyn, Conca and others), and are stuck with the above midfield we would be non-competitive for a generation.

‘Rolling the dice’ would have been not getting TT and Hopper and praying we had multiple picks become elite midfielders, which is highly unlikely.

And once you become no-hopers you get no quality free agents and no trade requests coming your way.

TT and Hopper are the absolute least of our problems. Without them we’d be non-competitive in 2023 like North and Eagles, let alone the future.



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[Noidnadroj]

Where are we at? We are farked

Why?

Neil Balme got sidelined.
Dimma shagged the office girl.
Our fitness staff are shite because Dimma has taken all the soft cap $
Our assistant coaches are shite - see above.
Matty Clarke is close to the worst recruiter in the league.
We sold the farm for 2 GWS players that are ok players but nothing special.
Our older players are cooked
Our younger players aren't very good; and
Dimma is a stubborn prick that refuses to see commonsense and ditch his shite game plan

Good post. I mean let’s be real, why can’t we contend for flags a few seasons after winning 3 in 4 in an 18-team competition. Just not good enough.


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[Rioli2Rioli]

Carlton are Carltons problem tbh, why you comparing us? I also don't think they are that far away, the honestly look exactly like us just before we took a leap. all key players in the perfect age bracket - a few regular years in or around the finals race. Their meltdown last year reminded me of our 2016 season after a few years of consecutive finals. I think they are well poised to make a run if they can keep Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Cerra, Docherty on the park;

What are you actually saying? That you don't think you'd want Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Curnow on your team? I don't understand your comparison

Jacob Wietering - 25 years
Patrick Cripps - 28
Harry MacKay -25
Docherty - 29
Cerra - 23
Charlie - 26
Hewett - 27
Saad - 29
Walsh - 22
Williams - 28
Mc Govern - 29
TDK - 23

Carlton are in the prime age position in the next 5-6 years to win a flag or 2 with the amount of talent they have on the list with only the highlighted players that will retire.

But there is no guarantee they will win as they have a terrible game plan with no too much speed in the side and Voss doesnt look like the type of coach that can implement a change in game style like Hardwick or Macrae

They could have spent the last 20 years rebuilding for no reward and in 6 years time need to start again

Thats the difference of Richmond and Dimma Hardwick
we have a great coach that had 5-6 stars but filled the remaining 16 spots with role players to get that job done with his game plan

 

[Noidnadroj]

This doesn't stand up for mine. The observation is factual, that we only brought in Lynch as a free agent during those 5 trade periods 2017-2021, and did not trade for any players or pick up delisted free agents.

But there are good reasons for that....

1. If you didn't notice, we were in a Premiership dynasty window and couldn't afford to even keep all the talent we had on the list, thus the drain of B Ellis, Conca, Higgins, Coleman-Jones, Butler, Chol to other clubs on bigger contracts than we could afford,

2. A player like Mason Wood in his current role is going brilliantly. But you would have needed to be able to envisage that he was going to be better than players OF SIMILAR AGE we already had playing that role reliably in Premiership teams, McIntosh and Pickett.

3. Hunter would not fit within our system. Hill is a small forward and we are already struggling to find space to fit a player like Cumberland in down there. If Hill plays for us, Rioli Junior doesn't. Why would you recruit a player to replace a player you are perfectly happy with?

4. Frampton, jesus wept, we have way better players and prospects in the roles he plays. Tylar Young on a rookie deal already looks better than Frampton a handful of games into life as a pro footballer. And Weideman you are stumping up a pretty decent contract to get him, by avoiding you are also banking the difference between say Miller at $250k and Weideman at $500k(or more) for 2 years = $500k to put towards a quality free agent key forward.

We brought in Prestia, Caddy, Nankervis, Lynch, Hopper, Taranto, Tarrant from other clubs in the 7 trade periods 2016-22 inclusive. On average a player per season. And it has so far worked out brilliantly for us with all of them giving us at least fair value for what we are paying in salary and draft capital.

We've drafted a load of young talent and filling holes with mature cast offs is going to cost those young players games. The club has quite rightly avoided this.

Good reply. I can’t believe some posters and their lack of logic … ‘Gee, I wonder why we haven’t brought in more senior players from other clubs during our dynasty’ …. looks out the window and sees B Ellis, Higgins, Butler, Chol and CCJ getting in an UBER leaving Punt Road due to no cash and/or limited opportunity.


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[domin8]

Carlton are Carltons problem tbh, why you comparing us? I also don't think they are that far away, the honestly look exactly like us just before we took a leap. all key players in the perfect age bracket - a few regular years in or around the finals race. Their meltdown last year reminded me of our 2016 season after a few years of consecutive finals. I think they are well poised to make a run if they can keep Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Cerra, Docherty on the park;

What are you actually saying? That you don't think you'd want Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Curnow on your team? I don't understand your comparison

Thick as pig s**t again. You said you need high draft picks to succeed I say that’s a furphy. Look at Carlton and how many they’ve had for the last 20-25 years and flat out playing finals let alone winning premierships. High draft picks are a crock of s**t. For as many that make it as stars most flop and lucky to make 100 games. Where is you can have as much if not more success from having as many late picks.

You don’t need to bottom out or rebuild like you are alluding too. Most of the key pillars of our list are in or approaching prime time. Only one on the back end is Lynch. But he will still have 3-4 good years left. So do we sacrifice that to try and bottom out to roll the dice with draft picks that are more likely to not work out then work out.

What we’ve done past few years trade and draft wise looks astute to me. I’m also not naive enough to know we are transitioning some legends out that need to be replaced with some in experienced players that we need to get to 30-50 games as quick as we can. Few short term hits will see a long term gain by gaining experience. Use Ryan for example he is starting to show a few glimpses of being a very very good player for us.

Sonsie Banks Brown Gibcus even Cumbo all need more opportunity and games.

But you can’t see this through your celebrations after each loss

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Good reply. I can’t believe some posters and their lack of logic … ‘Gee, I wonder why we haven’t brought in more senior players from other clubs during our dynasty’ …. looks out the window and sees B Ellis, Higgins, Butler, Chol and CCJ getting in an UBER leaving Punt Road due to no cash and/or limited opportunity.


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Then when we finally do bring in quality players , Why did we give up a 1st rounder
FA becomes available - We are paying too much even though we have 15 older players finishing up in 2-3 years

I wonder what they intend to do with the cap space
maybe we can over pay spuds like McGuane like we used to

 

[TigerImposter]

Thick as pig s**t again. You said you need high draft picks to succeed I say that’s a furphy. Look at Carlton and how many they’ve had for the last 20-25 years and flat out playing finals let alone winning premierships. High draft picks are a crock of s**t. For as many that make it as stars most flop and lucky to make 100 games. Where is you can have as much if not more success from having as many late picks.

You don’t need to bottom out or rebuild like you are alluding too. Most of the key pillars of our list are in or approaching prime time. Only one on the back end is Lynch. But he will still have 3-4 good years left. So do we sacrifice that to try and bottom out to roll the dice with draft picks that are more likely to not work out then work out.

What we’ve done past few years trade and draft wise looks astute to me. I’m also not naive enough to know we are transitioning some legends out that need to be replaced with some in experienced players that we need to get to 30-50 games as quick as we can. Few short term hits will see a long term gain by gaining experience. Use Ryan for example he is starting to show a few glimpses of being a very very good player for us.

Sonsie Banks Brown Gibcus even Cumbo all need more opportunity and games.

But you can’t see this through your celebrations after each loss

You misread his post as I think he was implying you need to nail at least three first rounders. Carlton it that period didn’t just like we failed for years on end Until we got to Jack Cotchin Sheds Rance Dusty and Co.

 

[domin8]

You misread his post as I think he was implying you need to nail at least three first rounders. Carlton it that period didn’t just like we failed for years on end Until we got to Jack Cotchin Sheds Rance Dusty and Co.

Maybe on that particular post but go back through this thread and others that have surfaced over past few weeks his tone is exactly the same. About bottoming out, rebuild, new coach, wasted picks of TT and JH etc etc. never seen a bloke get around with his chest puffed out so far after every loss

 

[TigerImposter]

Maybe on that particular post but go back through this thread and others that have surfaced over past few weeks his tone is exactly the same. About bottoming out, rebuild, new coach, wasted picks of TT and JH etc etc. never seen a bloke get around with his chest puffed out so far after every loss

It’s opinions my friend and there’s a lot of good points both camps are saying. I disagree with him on TT and JH , but some of his other points are honest and true. I,m not for sacking KDH atm, but I do want him to have better assistants who can prepare our players to a new game plan. Blind Freddy could see were were in trouble with our triple / double premiership jets ageing , injured , retiring and leaving. My concern atm is player fitness, player hunger , recent drafts, game plan -which is hard to assess with so many injuries ; kids development and decline of most , why so many injuries since we got a new fitness man in?, KDH hunger to succeed and his poor attitude in press conferences , Neil Balme seemingly to have lost his ruthlessness - maybe bc of his illness scare last year and finally what happens if Benny goes. There are a lot of issues now that are more serious than 2016 bc we had a stable and intelligent lot of people at the top which I shamefully underestimated back then. Peggy is also gone and the top decision makers are now thinner Or inexperienced.

 

[Livonski]

The draft is a numbers game. It sometimes takes 3 attempts to hit, but history once you hit big in one, you tend to have decent results over the following years as well. Does our soft cap have to include our scouting department? Perhaps that is another factor

Drivel.
Sometimes takes 3 attempts? Back that up. You realise that every club has picks every year? What are you talking about, number 1 picks, top 5, top 10…or 5 inside top 30(remember that one?).

Once you hit big in one you tend to…back that up. Like playing odds and evens on roulette right? Once you get one then you get a run. Embarrassing and naive statement.

Stop making up bullshit and then using it as a platform for an argument.
Your debating strategy is corrupt.

 

[Rayzorwire]

The draft is a numbers game. It sometimes takes 3 attempts to hit, but history once you hit big in one, you tend to have decent results over the following years as well.

 

[partycorolla]

Unfortunately, the size of our membership hasn’t helped get us into or over the line in a final in 35 of the last 43 years

The size of our membership was not big for 35ish of those 45 years either.

 

[RJK Tiger]

Drivel.
Sometimes takes 3 attempts? Back that up. You realise that every club has picks every year? What are you talking about, number 1 picks, top 5, top 10…or 5 inside top 30(remember that one?).

Once you hit big in one you tend to…back that up. Like playing odds and evens on roulette right? Once you get one then you get a run. Embarrassing and naive statement.

Stop making up bullshit and then using it as a platform for an argument.
Your debating strategy is corrupt.

You want me to provide proof......that sometimes to have a successful franchise changing draft..... you might need to have a few attempts before you land it? Thats just basic logic - more attempts = more chances. What part of it is making you angry?

I would also think its fairly logical that if you have a scouting team that are capable of landing you a fantastic 4 x +150game players in a single draft - something we have seen Richmond, Geelong, Carlton, Hawthorn, Melbourne, Eagles do over the last 20 years, they are more than likely capable of getting decent results the next year as they are clearly very good at their job. Quality people will get you good results from year to year. Its not a perfect theory, rarely any in sport are - but its just a flow on affect of having quality people involved. You have higher chances of repeat success

 

[Ctl]

Retirements
Players still performing but approaching the end
The sweet spot, quality players at a good age profile
Limited players at Afl level/list cloggers
Young players that look likely to be long term contributors
Promising players that are yet to be given an opportunity

Name	Age
Jack Riewoldt	34
Robbie Tarrant	33
Trent Cotchin	33
Dustin Martin	32
Dylan Grimes	32
Marlion Pickett	31
Dion Prestia	31
Tom Lynch	31
Nathan Broad	30
Kamdyn McIntosh	29
Nick Vlastuin	29
Toby Nankervis	29
Jayden Short	27
Ivan Soldo	27
Jacob Hopper	26
Daniel Rioli	26
Liam Baker	25
Tim Taranto	25
Jack Graham	25

Tylar Young	25
Shai Bolton	25
Ben Miller	24
Noah Balta	24
Rhyan Mansell	23
Jack Ross	23
Samson Ryan	23
Noah Cumberland	22
Bigoa Nyuon	22
Kalean Bradtke	22
Thomson Dow	22
Hugo Ralpsmith	22
Maurice Rioli	21
Jacob Bauer	21
Tyler Sonsie	20
Sam Banks	20
Josh Gibcus	20
Tom Brown	20
Judson Clarke	20
Steely Green	19
Kaleb Smith	19
Seth Campbell	19

We are lacking elite young talent which is to be expected given our recent success and access to early draft picks, but we are also thin on players in the "sweet spot" unless a couple of youngsters can take the next step sooner than expected

 

[dirtybizza]

I guess its mainly being so good for so long and not giving games to younger guys to develop them

 

[aislegi]

I guess its mainly being so good for so long and not giving games to younger guys to develop them

Apart from our woefully inconsistent form, which has plagued us for a decade or more, I think our inability to pick up a significant young player without a very high pick is probably the biggest reason we are where we are

 

[RJK Tiger]

Of the most successful teams of the modern era, if we keep heading in the direction we are in regards to list management & can't manage to turn our current form around to even 90% of the level from last season, our fall back down could end up being the most brutal.

2024 looms as a big moment for this club. By then we will likely have no Peggy, No Gale, No Dimma, No Cotchin, No Riewoldt, No Dusty, No Grimes, No Houli, No Lambert, No Rance & possibly no Balme as it seems bloody likely he would be ready at 74 years of age. What will this club look like then?

As we have next to no meaningful draft picks, what we have right now, minus all of the above-.... thats going to be where we are at as a club, most likely, but with also Benny & Dimma likely also moving on.

I am not at all confident there is any leadership potential in that group. I am also not confident how that group would handle the pressure that will be surely be applied to Richmond once Richmond goes back to doing Richmond things. Most teams don't nail there next coach after a generational one leaves. Sheedy. Malthouse. Clarkson. Matthews. The guy's that replaced them all pretty much failed. The transition of the dynasty team on the way down is the hardest one in football.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Anybody have a good pop corn brand they can suggest ?
Its kinda getting a bit tiresome reading Rubbish

 

[TigerImposter]

Since 2007 three teams have won 11 of the last 16 flags. Hawthorn and Geelong four apiece and us three . We unluckily missed out on a fourth in probably our best season of the lot. This is bc all these teams nailed consecutive drafts or a close cluster of them. It’s a staggering fact and that’s the business we are in. WINNING PREMIERSHIPS. Also imagine if Buddy didn’t leave Hawthorn or Junior mainly as he left Geelong in his prime and they’ve still always been in contention? Statistics or data in general are wonderful things bc the issuer can delude the ignorant into believing what they want their argument or outcome to be.

WHEN IT ALL COMES THROUGH THE WASH ITS THE FLAGS WON AND THE GREAT MEN IN THOSE TEAMS THAT WILL SURFACE BEING THAT THEY WERE HIGHLY REGARDED FROM THEIR RESPECTIVE DRAFTS.

 

[TigerImposter]

Imagine how many premierships we would’ve won if Casino Jackson had picked Franklin over Dickie Rambling ? Another 1000 goals and one of the greatest footballers of all time playing beside the great Jack Riewoldt who has another 800goals? Then add Dusty and Cotchin. You need to go to the draft to get these guys as freebies as getting them in their prime will cost you in picks. You only need to trade early picks when these great men are ready to open your premiership window. ATM our new breed are only opening up windows ranging from old Dimmers pantry to that nice one in his man cave, but the premiership window is fully closed with not enough elites in their prime on the list

 

[domin8]

Anybody have a good pop corn brand they can suggest ?
Its kinda getting a bit tiresome reading Rubbish

There’s some funny stuff there. Dusty contracted, Grimes contracted, Houli/Lambert retired 2 years ago. Surprised he didn’t bring up No KB, Dyer will be no longer with us, Clokey will be at Collingwood, Bones still on the darts. Place is falling apart. Burn it too the ground and start again

 

[Freddy Swift]

Of the most successful teams of the modern era, if we keep heading in the direction we are in regards to list management & can't manage to turn our current form around to even 90% of the level from last season, our fall back down could end up being the most brutal.

2024 looms as a big moment for this club. By then we will likely have no Peggy, No Gale, No Dimma, No Cotchin, No Riewoldt, No Dusty, No Grimes, No Houli, No Lambert, No Rance & possibly no Balme as it seems bloody likely he would be ready at 74 years of age. What will this club look like then?

As we have next to no meaningful draft picks, what we have right now, minus all of the above-.... thats going to be where we are at as a club, most likely, but with also Benny & Dimma likely also moving on.

I am not at all confident there is any leadership potential in that group. I am also not confident how that group would handle the pressure that will be surely be applied to Richmond once Richmond goes back to doing Richmond things. Most teams don't nail there next coach after a generational one leaves. Sheedy. Malthouse. Clarkson. Matthews. The guy's that replaced them all pretty much failed. The transition of the dynasty team on the way down is the hardest one in football.

Okay, I’ll play. If it were all up to you, what would you do to fix things? You always seem very critical about everything so let’s see your solution.

 

[domin8]

Okay, I’ll play. If it were all up to you, what would you do to fix things? You always seem very critical about everything so let’s see your solution.

Mate he has nothing. If Richmond said it was a beautiful sunrise he’d complain that it should have been called a moon set.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Apart from our woefully inconsistent form, which has plagued us for a decade or more,

2013-23 has produced 3 flags.
Missed finals twice in a decade.
Agree club has let us down in not winning all 10.

 

[domin8]

2013-23 has produced 3 flags.
Missed finals twice in a decade.
Agree club has let us down in not winning all 10.

That’s deplorable record. We should be better then that