Why we are where we are at

[Daka]

Why we are are where we are

• Rance retired too early
• Lamberts body broke down too early
• Astbury body broke down too early
• Castagna retired too early due to form
• Higgins left
• Butler left
• Chol left
• B.Ellis left
• Dusty's body & soul got battered

It basically brought our end forward faster by 1-2 seasons minimum. It made the ability to merge the era's without a dramatic fallout impossible.

The other reason is we have struggled to either hit the right draft picks, or failed to put the appropriate time in to develop players between 2017-2020

As it stands this is the list of players in drafted order that remain on our list from that period

Remaining

Noah Balta ( 2017 / p25 )
Ben Miller ( 2017 / P68 )
Liam Baker ( 2017 / rookie )
Jack Ross ( 2018 / P63 )
Marlion Pickett ( 2018 / Mid Season Pick )
Thomas Dow ( 2019 / P21 )
Noah Cumberland ( 2018 / P43 )
Hugo Ralph-Smith ( 2018 / P46 )
Biggy Nyuon ( 2018 / P54 )
Samson Ryan ( 2019 / P40 )
MRJ ( 2020 / Pick 51)
Rhyan Mansell ( 2020 / Pre Season )
Mate Colina ( pick 2020 / Rookie )

Gone
Jack Higgins ( 2017 / P17 )
Callum Coleman Jones ( 2017 / P20 )
Patrick Naish (2017 /P34 )
Derek Eggsontoast ( 2017 / Rookie )
Riley Collier Dawkins ( 2018 / P20 )
Fraser Turner ( 2018 / P58 )
Luke English ( 2018 / P62 )
Jake Aarts ( 2018 / Rookie )
Sydney Stack ( 2018 / Pre-Season )
Maverick Weller ( 2018 / Pre-Season )
Will Martyn ( 2019 / Pick 44 )
Matthew Parker ( 2022 / Mid-Season )



For whatever reason, we haven't hit a first round pick for a 4 year period & except for Noah Balta, haven't hit on a 2nd round pick. As always we have a good strike-rate with later picks, especially considering Baker is the best player we have gotten for that entire period.

Essentially though - outside of Balta, Baker, Cumberland & Pickett - we are not entirely sure if we have many 100 game players in that group. Most of our wins have been from lower picks. We have a massive hole in our list because of this & unfortunately that hole has the potential to get larger as we have zero good picks 22-23 now. We are relying on that one 2021 draft to carry us from 2017 till 2024.Its not hard to see where this is going to possibly head. It also means we have failed to pick up a possible elite young player for 7 seasons.

If we do fail to pick up steam, the club might have to consider finding a way to trade back into this years draft first round. It might mean trading Broad or Short.

I'm not buying this as an excuse it, because it didn't all happen at once it happened over time, the only thing is we didn't get is great draft picks for being near the top of the ladder maybe didn't get get the best bang for buck from the players that left but we knew it was happening & let them go so we can't blame anyone. we could have easily got cheap players in the trade period/delisted free agents similar skilled players to the people we lost but didn't.

To me we have loaded up with kids in draft that don't cut it at AFL level Ralphsmith, Ross, Sonsie, Sam Banks, Tom Brown, Dow. we would have been better filling the gaps with recylced players AFL experience players like we did in the 2012-2016 time period.

 

[RJK Tiger]

I'm not buying this as an excuse it, because it didn't all happen at once it happened over time, the only thing is we didn't get is great draft picks for being near the top of the ladder maybe didn't get get the best bang for buck from the players that left but we knew it was happening & let them go so we can't blame anyone. we could have easily got cheap players in the trade period/delisted free agents similar skilled players to the people we lost but didn't.

To me we have loaded up with kids in draft that don't cut it at AFL level Ralphsmith, Ross, Sonsie, Sam Banks, Tom Brown, Dow. we would have been better filling the gaps with recylced players AFL experience players like we did in the 2012-2016 time period.

No. What we need to do is hit on our draft picks like we did between 2006-2007+2009. In that period we drafted Jack Riewoldt, Trent Cotchin, Alex Rance, Shane Edwards, Dustin Martin, David Astbury & Dylan Grimes. You need to hit 3 drafts in a 5 year period to get elite & in that time you need to make sure it includes a Walsh, Dusty, Dangerfield, Bont quality player. When you trade out 2 years of top end draft picks, this becomes quite a bit harder to achieve.

Yeah, we likely have missed a lot of picks from that 2021 group, but clubs rarely get it right on the first go. Its a numbers game. Lose. Draft. Repeat.

The trades around 12-16 were the icing on the cake. I'd be ok with a strategy that included making trades like we made for Houli, Nank & Grigg, but definitely not those like Yarran, Prestia, Caddy. Far too risky

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

I'm not buying this as an excuse it, because it didn't all happen at once it happened over time, the only thing is we didn't get is great draft picks for being near the top of the ladder maybe didn't get get the best bang for buck from the players that left but we knew it was happening & let them go so we can't blame anyone. we could have easily got cheap players in the trade period/delisted free agents similar skilled players to the people we lost but didn't.

To me we have loaded up with kids in draft that don't cut it at AFL level Ralphsmith, Ross, Sonsie, Sam Banks, Tom Brown, Dow. we would have been better filling the gaps with recylced players AFL experience players like we did in the 2012-2016 time period.

Iirc we had 3 picks in the top 29 in 2021 draft and not one of them at this stage looks like making it . In fact that whole draft year is looking meh , albeit early and it’s not surprising given fine eyes who was well known for it , mentored them .
Heads should roll .

 

[Daka]

Iirc we had 3 picks in the top 29 in 2021 draft and not one of them at this stage looks like making it . In fact that whole draft year is looking meh , albeit early and it’s not surprising given fine eyes who was well known for it , mentored them .
Heads should roll .

That's why I don't fully trust the draft & that's why we got Taranto & Hopper, I'd rather try get rookie/gems in the draft.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Iirc we had 3 picks in the top 29 in 2021 draft and not one of them at this stage looks like making it . In fact that whole draft year is looking meh , albeit early and it’s not surprising given fine eyes who was well known for it , mentored them .
Heads should roll .

We had 5 picks in the top 30 in the 2021 draft.

Pick 9 - Gibcus key or intercept defender, had a fantastic first year showing every sign of tracking to be gun player, albeit needs a bit more time to get there. Tore hamstring off bone late in this last pre-season when apparently flying. We might see a bit of him later this year, but remains about 3 years away from entering his prime.

Pick 17 - Brown mid sized defender, has been hampered by various injuries on and off since being drafted. May also be some questions about his tank at this stage. Appears a highly skilled but not overly physical player who may be a bit prone to injury. The club will be hoping his body strengthens up, but he is 3 months short of turning 20 and like the others from this draft pool will rightly be given plenty of time to develop physically.

Pick 28 - Sonsie one of the older ones in his draft class so a bit more advanced than some of the others. Had a super first year in 2022, impressing with his reading of the play and class disposal. Don't be fooled by his shocking game yesterday. He has been shoe-horned into the team after a badly interrupted pre-season, and just likely needs a run of games in the VFL to regain his touch and run into peak fitness.

Pick 29 - Banks another one selected for his excellent kicking skills after the introduction of the stand rule who has also had some interruptions along the way. We have seen enough of him at VFL level to see he can not be written off. Like the others of this batch is a skilled but not overly physical player who just needs to be given time.

Pick 30 - Clarke small frame and young in his draft class, has speed and skill. Has shown some really good things at AFL level but is very much an outside player at this stage.

These guys are class ball users, and in the case of Clarke and Gibcus at least look great runners. Apart from Clarke, who himself was drafted after recovering from an ACL, they have all had reasonable major interruptions since being drafted. It is obvious that this will delay their development. I will be more than mildly surprised if at least 3 of these guys don't become strong AFL players, and in the process help fix a lot of our ball use issues that are costing us at present. None of them are physical beasts though so they need time to build up their bodies and confidence. There would be absolutely no reason to question the recruitment of this batch of players at this stage. You might want to at least give them time to fail before doing that.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

LOL
Ross, Ralphsmith, Mansell - all duds as is our 2021 draft class apart from Gibcus.

Clarke is a hack

Re Ross, Ralphsmith and Mansell, you are talking about picks 43, 46 and an SSP selection. Every one of them has shown at least enough to justify their selection at those picks. You wouldn't mind being able to parcel up their respective strengths into one player, but it is far from out of the question that we get at least one decent AFL player out of this trio yet.

The 2021 draft class it is way too early to be writing any of them off yet, but Gibcus and Sonsie have already shown to be tracking as potential elite players.

All these guys are being asked to play at present with a very unstable and inexperienced spine of Young, Balta, Miller, Ryan, Soldo with only 34yo Riewoldt in a role he has had time to properly master. We have no doubt struck some turbulence in recent weeks, especially with the Swans and Suns losses, but this is no reason to start finger pointing at every player and office holder and calling them a dud.

 

[_RT_]

YES i want to bring HH in to play as a 2nd KPF

All your other points are a perfect example on why he is so valuable as a KPF

You have made my point even better but you just dont understand the point

Hint : Read your post 5 times and see if you can understand the point

You want to have the club recruit and pay $750k a year for KPF who has kicked 30+ goals in a season twice in an 8 year career, with his average goals a game in those 2 seasons was 1.5 a game, where there was no playing down back or helping out in the ruck, just playing KPF and in teams that were good and competing for finals/grand finals.

It would be a waste of money and time, that would be better spent elsewhere in a list that clearly needs a bit of work to get back to being competitive again.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

I think what we are seeing now is a result of the complete disregard for bringing in value from other clubs over a 5 year period.

Trade periods for 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 we brought in zero players from other clubs either through trade or delisted FA's, in that time there has been heaps of players available that we could of looked at. I said 2 years ago that Mason Wood

32

Mason Wood

Age

30

Ht

192cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.3

2star

D

8.3

2star

K

2.7

1star

HB

5.7

3star

M

1.7

2star

T

1.3

2star

CL

0.0

1star

D

15.8

4star

K

8.6

4star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.6

3star

was worth a list spot and was howled down on here. even from last year if we'd taken Setterfield, Hill and Hunter, instead of the Hopper trade we would be far better placed, and still have next years first. Guys like Frampton or Weiderman would be a huge upgrade on some of the talls we have and would have cost next to nothing.

I'm not sure what our recruiting team were doing for 5 full years bringing in zero players, seems bizarre to be Honest as there has been plenty of solid players that could fill holes on our list that would have cost bugger all.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Dimma and coaching staff are on a hiding to nothing currently...But I reckon it is not easy to get a group of disparate players, young, old, (in)experienced, injured, unfit, suspended, lacking skills...all singing in harmony from the same hymn book...
Not sure where and or when it all started to unravel for Dimma and Co, this year, but the Team looks bereft of ideas and team cohesion/confidence/zest/fun...
In my coaching book once you have the team cohesion/confidence, the hard part, down pat...then the ideas and strategies come to the fore, flow, formulate..
It appears the side as a whole has had a tsunami of injuries, fitness issues, player suspension destabilization, and young players inexperience mixed with older declining stars and newer players intergration to the side...form loss...a recipe for where we are currently at...a very big shemozzle...
Maybe Dimma and Co ought to have read the warning signs sooner...prepared contingency plans quicker...but it currently is what it is...
And playing the blame game pile on is not going to help us at all...
We need to circle the wagons tight and weather the storm...if it doesn't kill us...it can only be the making of us...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I think what we are seeing now is a result of the complete disregard for bringing in value from other clubs over a 5 year period.

Trade periods for 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21 we brought in zero players from other clubs either through trade or delisted FA's, in that time there has been heaps of players available that we could of looked at. I said 2 years ago that Mason Wood was worth a list spot and was howled down on here. even from last year if we'd taken Setterfield, Hill and Hunter, instead of the Hopper trade we would be far better placed, and still have next years first. Guys like Frampton or Weiderman would be a huge upgrade on some of the talls we have and would have cost next to nothing.

I'm not sure what our recruiting team were doing for 5 full years bringing in zero players, seems bizarre to be Honest as there has been plenty of solid players that could fill holes on our list that would have cost bugger all.

This doesn't stand up for mine. The observation is factual, that we only brought in Lynch as a free agent during those 5 trade periods 2017-2021, and did not trade for any players or pick up delisted free agents.

But there are good reasons for that....

1. If you didn't notice, we were in a Premiership dynasty window and couldn't afford to even keep all the talent we had on the list, thus the drain of B Ellis, Conca, Higgins, Coleman-Jones, Butler, Chol to other clubs on bigger contracts than we could afford,

2. A player like Mason Wood in his current role is going brilliantly. But you would have needed to be able to envisage that he was going to be better than players OF SIMILAR AGE we already had playing that role reliably in Premiership teams, McIntosh and Pickett.

3. Hunter would not fit within our system. Hill is a small forward and we are already struggling to find space to fit a player like Cumberland in down there. If Hill plays for us, Rioli Junior doesn't. Why would you recruit a player to replace a player you are perfectly happy with?

4. Frampton, jesus wept, we have way better players and prospects in the roles he plays. Tylar Young on a rookie deal already looks better than Frampton a handful of games into life as a pro footballer. And Weideman you are stumping up a pretty decent contract to get him, by avoiding you are also banking the difference between say Miller at $250k and Weideman at $500k(or more) for 2 years = $500k to put towards a quality free agent key forward.

We brought in Prestia, Caddy, Nankervis, Lynch, Hopper, Taranto, Tarrant from other clubs in the 7 trade periods 2016-22 inclusive. On average a player per season. And it has so far worked out brilliantly for us with all of them giving us at least fair value for what we are paying in salary and draft capital.

We've drafted a load of young talent and filling holes with mature cast offs is going to cost those young players games. The club has quite rightly avoided this.

 

[Simche]

You need to replace best 22 players at the rate of around 2 per season on average.

Since and including the 2017 draft, so 6 drafts, with only one top 10 draft pick and nothing else under pick 17, we have added the following players who look in the best 28 at the club right now, based on 2022-23 seasons to this point:

2017 Balta Baker
2018 Ross
2019 Pickett Cumberland
2020 Rioli Jnr
2021 Gibcus Sonsie
2022 Young

Already 4-5 of those players drafted from 2017 onwards look locks in our best 22, Pickett, Baker, Balta, and probably Cumberland and Rioli Jnr.

Add to that the 2 players we traded for, Taranto and Hopper, plus the free agent Lynch.

Further add players previously drafted who entered our best 22 after the 2017 draft: Short, Bolton

So we are up to a pretty strong collective of 9-10 players into our best 22 since the 2017 draft.

With the best of Ross, Dow, Ryan, Gibcus, Brown, Ralphsmith, Sonsie, Nyuon, Clarke, Banks, Young, and the 3 x 2022 draftees Campbell, Smith, Green to come, and you would bet 5-6 of those at least enter our best 22 over the next 3 years on top of whatever free agents or other players we acquire through trades and drafts.

So we'd have hoped to add 12 new and decent players to our best 22 since 2017. We have definitely added 8, and probably 10, already, depending how you view Cumberland and Rioli Junior. By the end of 2023 we should expect another couple are entrenched in our best 22, you could easily see Young, and Sonsie for example with at least a couple more banked up looking like strong candidates for 2024.

One thing that happened that probably set us back slightly in the immediate term was we had to swap Higgins, who would likely be established best 22 by now - for a 2021 draft pick, who will obviously take a bit of time to be determined.

But you can see from this we are adding decent players to our best 22 at the right sort of rate since 2017. Remembering also we added Prestia, Broad, Nankervis, Graham to our best 22 in 2017 from previous drafts or trades.

So we are getting our two per year in the period you are concerned about. There is essentially nothing wrong with the list bar the obvious hole behind Riewoldt and Lynch in our key forward stocks.

And there is absolutely no problem with our list management, save the normal after-timing you could apply to any club's list management.

I think you are a fair bit more optimistic than I am on the prospect of the current blokes on the list and I don't agree. Particularly after the defensive efforts of Sonsie yesterday, I can see why he fell so far in the draft as he really does not like the rough stuff. Junior also is nowhere near the standard of an AFL small forward and at the moment only represents our best option in terms of pressure which illustrates the shortsightedness of trading Butler and Higgins away.

I also don't agree that our list management has been up to scratch given the consistent drafting of kids in position where there has not been a need, principally at half back.

 

[tora tora tora]

Why are we here? Because we lost sight of what keeps sides like Geelong in contention - good list management.

Since 2017 we've done the following in terms of drafting and trading:

1. Traded a 23 year old Dan Butler for pick 56. We now have zero small forward players of Dan's capability.
2. Drafted Higgins and CCJ, neither of whom have turned into players, in Higgins case wasn't a need with Butler and Castanga and then lost both for no value in Higgins' case pick upgrade and future second that turned into Judson Clarke who at this stage we can't say whether he's going to be a player and for Tarrant who won't see out another year and a bevy of late picks.
3. Instead of the selections above, overlooked players like: Starcevich, Powell, Allen, Kelly, Ryan, Taylor, De Koning, Fritsch and McCartin
4. Spent our first two picks at the 2018 draft on RCD who was a massive bust and Ross. Not a great draft but have a look at Sydney to see what could be done with later picks that are nailed. We then spent our late picks on Turner, English, Aarts, Townsend (again when we'd already decided he wasn't up to it) and Chol.
5. Taking Dow, who isn't getting a game, and Martyn with high picks in 2019 when there are plenty of best 22 blokes that have been picked after them.
6. Took only two picks in the 2020 draft and were spooked by not enough exposed COVID form when we needed to get youth into the team. Blokes like O'Driscoll, McInnes and Holmes would have been available with our first pick if we hadn't pushed it back a year to select Brown.
7. I'm giving the 2021 draft some time, but the Brown selection at the moment is looking catastrophic given how dysfunctional our forward line looks and how much someone like Van Rooyen would be a successor to Jack or MacDonald would go in our midfield. Overlooking Owens also isn't looking terrific at the moment given we had 3 picks.
8. Prioritised average mid-season draft picks such as Matt Parker instead of long term development.
9. In addition to the above with the blokes we've actually taken to 2020 (I'm assessing 2021 as too early at this stage) we arguably got right: Balta, Baker, Cumberland. Jury still out on Dow, Ralphsmith, Nyuon, Ryan, Rioli. That's 3 best 22 and 5 maybe future best 22 blokes. We had 21 picks in total in that period. Not a great return any which way you look at it.

The other central reason we've fallen is:

• Our game plan is now stale and either no longer stacks up or we don't have the personnel to play it.
• Rule changes have made our game plan less effective and we've struggled to adapt.
• We have brought back old assistant coaches and lost good ones so there is not a lot of new ideas or evolution happening in the coach's box.
• We have lost key underappreciated players (I miss Kane Lambert so much) with others going on too long. Cotchin has arguably gone two seasons too long now and that same argument could be made about Jack.
• We have made the fatal mistake of overrating our list and overpaid for Hopper and Taranto who will now smooth our failure in multiple drafts in terms of age demographic but hurt our ability to pick up young stars (i.e. keep us not good enough for finals but out of the bottom four) that will propel our next tilt at a flag.

20:20 hindsight. I've got that too

Be like Geelong? I agree. How do they recruit old farts and win a flag? Smith at 33 y.o & you want to get rid of old players? Lambert was a great player, but chronic injury. Not good, Now coaching at Punt Road. What more could we do?

Edwards important 2022 swan song. Will also be a good coach. Was in a role but someone poached him.

Cotchin & JR are on one year contracts, Cotch relinquishes captain. Players are people and need to be managed out of their football careers. I'd rather not sack a club legend and have them play at another club.

Raw milk? Dank and Robinson were there for the previous flag. Danger & Ablett wanting to go home. Cameron wanting to live there.
They are unique.

Heres another story:
RFC just won 3 flags. Round 1 2021 our side was pretty much a triple flag team plus Aarts, Caddy, Ross. One ruck, pressure fwds. We lose players to other clubs. Butler was VFL in his last season. Higgins wanted out. When a team is in the middle of a dynasty, depth players don't get proper AFL game time. With COVID there was less exposed form, having said that RFC usully play 37 + players in a season. Griffiths & Elton et al played in 2017
By mid 2021 we were 7th to 10th on the ladder. Not an mid year unusual ladder position. Season falls apart with unprecendented injury to Martin. Who along with Lynch absorb a lot of salary.
2022 was an improvement on 21. Getting 2 mids should've addressed our weakness at clearances.

 

[tora tora tora]

Geelong's secret weapon...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I think you are a fair bit more optimistic than I am on the prospect of the current blokes on the list and I don't agree. Particularly after the defensive efforts of Sonsie yesterday, I can see why he fell so far in the draft as he really does not like the rough stuff. Junior also is nowhere near the standard of an AFL small forward and at the moment only represents our best option in terms of pressure which illustrates the shortsightedness of trading Butler and Higgins away.

I also don't agree that our list management has been up to scratch given the consistent drafting of kids in position where there has not been a need, principally at half back.

You are officially selling out on Sonsie and Rioli Junior?

I definitely am not. They are 20 year olds. Both have displayed some excellent form and certain elite attributes at AFL level. That doesn't get wiped because they play a small handful of poor games. There could be a million reasons for the drop in form. If you sacked a 20yo every time he played a few poor games most of your gun players would be gone.

Sonsie was terrible yesterday but it is one game. Before that he had 2 x 15 possession games where he just looked like a version of himself that had missed the pre season. The guy can seriously play, just have some faith.

 

[tora tora tora]

I think you are a fair bit more optimistic than I am on the prospect of the current blokes on the list and I don't agree. Particularly after the defensive efforts of Sonsie yesterday, I can see why he fell so far in the draft as he really does not like the rough stuff. Junior also is nowhere near the standard of an AFL small forward and at the moment only represents our best option in terms of pressure which illustrates the shortsightedness of trading Butler and Higgins away.

I also don't agree that our list management has been up to scratch given the consistent drafting of kids in position where there has not been a need, principally at half back.

The drop off in form from last year to this year of MRJ is a worry. With Castagna retiring and Noah C emerging I was hoping We'd seen the end of that role at RFC. Most clubs have one, or 2. Good to see Clarke get games. Not Mansell.


These 181 cm players can play small fwd.

A few are injured. Like Brown. Which is a shame. Biggie, Banks and Bauer not far off a game

 

[mauricerioli]

Coaching and fitness/pre season preparation have both been terrible since the end of 2020.

 

[Wooden Robot]

To me we have loaded up with kids in draft that don't cut it at AFL level Ralphsmith, Ross, Sonsie, Sam Banks, Tom Brown, Dow. we would have been better filling the gaps with recylced players AFL experience players like we did in the 2012-2016 time period.

Yet, if the blokes you mentioned were five years older, most of them would have played in at least one or two premierships.
I know it's unpopular, but there were some average commodities among our premiership line-ups (even though we all love what they did).
But anyone could have slotted in alongside Dusty, Jack, Rancey, Cotch, Prestia, Grimes and Vlastuin in full flight.

I am sincere when I say I would love to see us go the draft and unearth some genuine stars over a few years like we did the aforementioned players and watching them grow together.
Equally as sincere in saying that I'm not opposed to the long haul approach.
There are a lot of people who I think disingenuously say the club etc. owes us nothing and they'd be happy with never winning another after what happened in 2017-20, but the responses and meltdowns on here after losses like yesterday paints a very different picture.

 

[Simche]

You are officially selling out on Sonsie and Rioli Junior?

I definitely am not. They are 20 year olds. Both have displayed some excellent form and certain elite attributes at AFL level. That doesn't get wiped because they play a small handful of poor games. There could be a million reasons for the drop in form. If you sacked a 20yo every time he played a few poor games most of your gun players would be gone.

Sonsie was terrible yesterday but it is one game. Before that he had 2 x 15 possession games where he just looked like a version of himself that had missed the pre season. The guy can seriously play, just have some faith.

I'm real worried about both.

I have no question over Sonsie's skill level, what I worry about is his ability and desire to get involved. Last year he attempted to tackle and bounced off most attempts. I thought 'no worries, he's a young player and when he puts on some size those will stick'. This year he's not even attempting to put those tackles on and yesterday was shirking any contested work whatsoever. Now some will say that's a result of an impacted pre-season, and I hope that's the case, but given the knocks on him in his draft year I'm thinking he just does not work anywhere near hard enough to play AFL at the moment.

Rioli worries me for different reasons. He's got some elite attributes in his pace and he genuinely creates pressure. That being said his output for a small forward is extremely underwhelming, he goes missing entirely for large swathes of games and at current he appears to run to the wrong spots when we're in possession. I'm far from convinced he's a lock for a future best 22 player unless he comes on significantly from where he is at right now.

 

[_RT_]

Yet, if the blokes you mentioned were five years older, most of them would have played in at least one or two premierships.
I know it's unpopular, but there were some average commodities among our premiership line-ups (even though we all love what they did).
But anyone could have slotted in alongside Dusty, Jack, Rancey, Cotch, Prestia, Grimes and Vlastuin in full flight.

I am sincere when I say I would love to see us go the draft and unearth some genuine stars over a few years like we did the aforementioned players and watching them grow together.
Equally as sincere in saying that I'm not opposed to the long haul approach.
There are a lot of people who I think disingenuously say the club etc. owes us nothing and they'd be happy with never winning another after what happened in 2017-20, but the responses and meltdowns on here after losses like yesterday paints a very different picture.

Something must be going on, once again I find myself in agreement with you.

 

[RJK Tiger]

That's why I don't fully trust the draft & that's why we got Taranto & Hopper, I'd rather try get rookie/gems in the draft.

The draft is a numbers game. It sometimes takes 3 attempts to hit, but history once you hit big in one, you tend to have decent results over the following years as well. Does our soft cap have to include our scouting department? Perhaps that is another factor

 

[domin8]

The draft is a numbers game. It sometimes takes 3 attempts to hit, but history once you hit big in one, you tend to have decent results over the following years as well. Does our soft cap have to include our scouting department? Perhaps that is another factor

Yeah like Carlton have nailed it. Their top end picks have been pretty good over the years but got literally * all out of it. Draft picks are an over rated commodity

 

[RJK Tiger]

Yet, if the blokes you mentioned were five years older, most of them would have played in at least one or two premierships.
I know it's unpopular, but there were some average commodities among our premiership line-ups (even though we all love what they did).
But anyone could have slotted in alongside Dusty, Jack, Rancey, Cotch, Prestia, Grimes and Vlastuin in full flight.

I am sincere when I say I would love to see us go the draft and unearth some genuine stars over a few years like we did the aforementioned players and watching them grow together.
Equally as sincere in saying that I'm not opposed to the long haul approach.
There are a lot of people who I think disingenuously say the club etc. owes us nothing and they'd be happy with never winning another after what happened in 2017-20, but the responses and meltdowns on here after losses like yesterday paints a very different picture.

You are 100% correct. Our Dusty years were a bit like the Jordan Bulls. He always had couple of top level partners in Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Grant - but the next tier of Kerr, Armstrong, Longley, Cartwright etc were fairly average players with one strong skillset that Michale needed to round out his game. Our Dusty years were a bit like that with blokes like Townsend, Castagna, Aarts, Soldo, KMac,even Grigg & possibly Jack Graham if he cannot elevate - they were mostly celebrated due to playing minor supporting roles tightly in important matches.

I also agree with you that the supporters need to do better. Its time to embrace a long rebuild and use this year to celebrate the end of an era golden generation. This is the circle of life as an AFL time, we have already wasted 2 years in denial, lets not pressure the club into a 3rd

 

[RJK Tiger]

Yeah like Carlton have nailed it. Their top end picks have been pretty good over the years but got literally * all out of it. Draft picks are an over rated commodity

Carlton are Carltons problem tbh, why you comparing us? I also don't think they are that far away, the honestly look exactly like us just before we took a leap. all key players in the perfect age bracket - a few regular years in or around the finals race. Their meltdown last year reminded me of our 2016 season after a few years of consecutive finals. I think they are well poised to make a run if they can keep Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Cerra, Docherty on the park;

What are you actually saying? That you don't think you'd want Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Curnow on your team? I don't understand your comparison

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Iirc we had 3 picks in the top 29 in 2021 draft and not one of them at this stage looks like making it . In fact that whole draft year is looking meh , albeit early and it’s not surprising given fine eyes who was well known for it , mentored them .
Heads should roll .

So you have come to this conclusion just 15 months after they have been drafted and Gibcus , Banks , Sonsie , Brown have spent considerable time injured.

FMD

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Dimma and coaching staff are on a hiding to nothing currently...But I reckon it is not easy to get a group of disparate players, young, old, (in)experienced, injured, unfit, suspended, lacking skills...all singing in harmony from the same hymn book...
Not sure where and or when it all started to unravel for Dimma and Co, this year, but the Team looks bereft of ideas and team cohesion/confidence/zest/fun...
In my coaching book once you have the team cohesion/confidence, the hard part, down pat...then the ideas and strategies come to the fore, flow, formulate..
It appears the side as a whole has had a tsunami of injuries, fitness issues, player suspension destabilization, and young players inexperience mixed with older declining stars and newer players intergration to the side...form loss...a recipe for where we are currently at...a very big shemozzle...
Maybe Dimma and Co ought to have read the warning signs sooner...prepared contingency plans quicker...but it currently is what it is...
And playing the blame game pile on is not going to help us at all...
We need to circle the wagons tight and weather the storm...if it doesn't kill us...it can only be the making of us...

whats for dinner