List Mgmt. Welcome Liam Duggan Pick 11 2014 Draft

[Dark Sharks]

You seem to be concentrating on physical differences, no doubt these matter but differences in skill, awareness, smarts and composure are more important.

In that regard i'm not necessarily sure i see the comparison between the first group and the second. Especially considering they're being coached and drilled differently from day 1.

Physical differences lead to versatility, good overhead marking, line breaking and ball carrying abilities, flair etc etc.

I'll use Yeo as an example. All of those things apply to him ^ Because he's a fast 190cm player. Hutchings, on the other hand, none of them apply. Because he's an averaged sized, average paced, average skilled plodder. Hard for Hutchings to show flair when he only has 1 gear obviously.

I know people like yourself don't place much emphasis on physical attributes. But when you have an entire midfield which is roughly the same size and speed (Yeo and Shuey are the exception) i think it becomes more urgent. Highlighted by a character like Lamb, who can be anything.

All these important things of yours - skill, awareness, smarts, composure.... why hasn't Selwood got any? And yet he'll be starting for 5 more years.

 

[94_Eagles]

Physical differences lead to versatility, good overhead marking, line breaking and ball carrying abilities, flair etc etc.

I'll use Yeo as an example. All of those things apply to him ^ Because he's a fast 190cm player. Hutchings, on the other hand, none of them apply. Because he's an averaged sized, average paced, average skilled plodder. Hard for Hutchings to show flair when he only has 1 gear obviously.

I know people like yourself don't place much emphasis on physical attributes. But when you have an entire midfield which is roughly the same size and speed (Yeo and Shuey are the exception) i think it becomes more urgent. Highlighted by a character like Lamb, who can be anything.

All these important things of yours - skill, awareness, smarts, composure.... why hasn't Selwood got any? And yet he'll be starting for 5 more years.

Because he has that other attribute - hunger for the ball/contest

 

[Dark Sharks]

Because he has that other attribute - hunger for the ball/contest

Not really. How often is he standing up and desperately winning the hard ball with this attribute in a big game or something? That was Kerr's thing.

I would have said his ability to accumulate posessions, and perhaps his fitness, were Selwoods strengths and why he starts each week.

 

[Longwthebreeze]

I'm trying to understand what you're asking here.

Will Sheed, Waterman and Duggan improve as players by the time they are 25? Of course they will. Will they improve their Speed, Height, or X factor? No. Just like Selwood, Masten, Priddis and Hutchings haven't improved those areas over the last 5 years. Some things can be trained, some cannot.

Dangerfield? Griffin?

My point exactly. Does speed, height and xfactor spring to mind when you think of the best midfielders, Ablett, Pendlebury, J.Kennedy, A.Swallow, Swan, Hodge, Matthew Boyd, Montagna, Joel Selwood, oh my God its tiring going on and I wont even start with the Voss`s, Hirds, Buckleys or Simon Blacks of this world ...
*Or is it the pure football nous, beautiful all round skills, smarts, strength, endurance, leadership, toughness, desire or dead set great club men?
**Obviously height is important for you? I would counter that after 150 years of footy a quality mid is a quality mid, height is a slight bonus.
*** Maybe if the biggest Xfactor in the game today happens to be our ruckman and you chose to leave out Yeo, Shuey, Lamb & other youngsters in your qualifications, then you are correct.

Other than that, your support of our untried players is appreciated....

 

[Longwthebreeze]

Mitchell, Boak, Sloane, Hanneberry, Rockliff, Chapman

All players that are neither particularly tall or quick but by age 25 were/are accomplished players

Thanks, a few more fair mids to add

 

[Longwthebreeze]

Physical differences lead to versatility, good overhead marking, line breaking and ball carrying abilities, flair etc etc.

I'll use Yeo as an example. All of those things apply to him ^ Because he's a fast 190cm player. Hutchings, on the other hand, none of them apply. Because he's an averaged sized, average paced, average skilled plodder. Hard for Hutchings to show flair when he only has 1 gear obviously.

I know people like yourself don't place much emphasis on physical attributes. But when you have an entire midfield which is roughly the same size and speed (Yeo and Shuey are the exception) i think it becomes more urgent. Highlighted by a character like Lamb, who can be anything.

All these important things of yours - skill, awareness, smarts, composure.... why hasn't Selwood got any? And yet he'll be starting for 5 more years.

It amazes me you keep using Hutchings as an example of your midfield woes, where as every half interested WCE fan understands he is a bit-part, depth player with a fit list???
"Yeo and Shuey are the exception"??? To me, that seems a fair percentage of the midfield group???

 

[QS]

The more I read up on him the more highly regarded he seems, especially by those in Victoria. Excitement building.

Second this. I know nothing about these kids or how they will pan out at AFL level against men, but from what I've seen I like. Same goes for Lamb, even my missus (who saw me watching his highlights) said "that fyfe lookalike looks exciting". Good enough for me.

 

[Matera92]

We should sack our current draftee's and go again next year. Obviously are no good.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Physical differences lead to versatility, good overhead marking, line breaking and ball carrying abilities, flair etc etc.

I'll use Yeo as an example. All of those things apply to him ^ Because he's a fast 190cm player. Hutchings, on the other hand, none of them apply. Because he's an averaged sized, average paced, average skilled plodder. Hard for Hutchings to show flair when he only has 1 gear obviously.

I know people like yourself don't place much emphasis on physical attributes. But when you have an entire midfield which is roughly the same size and speed (Yeo and Shuey are the exception) i think it becomes more urgent. Highlighted by a character like Lamb, who can be anything.

All these important things of yours - skill, awareness, smarts, composure.... why hasn't Selwood got any? And yet he'll be starting for 5 more years.

I do place emphasis on physical attributes. I just realize their is always a trade off. I try to ascertain the a players abilities in different areas. Which is why i talk about body shape, like leg and torso ratio, stride length, as well as hip articulation and it's effects on a players agility, strength over the ball and thus their capacity to play up on ball or not. You look for skills on both sides, especially their ball use by hand as taller/outside types universally develop a high degree of bias to one side of their body.

From an athletic stand point one of the things you learn pretty quickly watching Junior and Colts football is the difference between what a 185cm dashing defender looks like at U18's and what he looks like at AFL level, they go from above average height and quick to below average height and average paced instantly and you wonder why they struggle (Brad Sheppard). You quickly appreciate the value in 190cm line breakers who have long kicks and strength overhead. They're not particularly common because the often come on later from a development perspective.
While these taller utilities are useful from a juxtaposition point of view you also quickly appropriate shorter more balanced inside players that don't lose their feet, can wind their way our of a stoppage and give off clean hands. The capacity for 190cm types to do this and make the transition to supreme on ball player is a rare move, most are linear types who run on tracks and those that aren't (even more athletic) can lack balance and poise. Added height more often that not comes at the expense of ground level aptitude and agility.

RE: Scott Selwood has always been an average player when it comes to skills, awareness and composure. Selwood has and will continue to be a big part of our team because he has a concise role that he excels at and his game has some fundamental strengths to go alongside some of those weaknesses. He's a defensive machine who has proven when injuries permit that his best is good enough. Athletically he's also a long way from what you can reasonably call deficient or below average, in terms of his capacity for high intensity running is elite and speed on the spread has been excellent.

 

[willow70]

Mitchell, Boak, Sloane, Hanneberry, Rockliff, Chapman

All players that are neither particularly tall or quick but by age 25 were/are accomplished players

Nice

 

[Dark Sharks]

It amazes me you keep using Hutchings as an example of your midfield woes, where as every half interested WCE fan understands he is a bit-part, depth player with a fit list???
"Yeo and Shuey are the exception"??? To me, that seems a fair percentage of the midfield group???

Yeo has spent literally a handful of minutes playing midfield. To even call him a fulltime part of our midfield would be incorrect right now. I chose Hutchings as an example, yet i could have used Priddis, Masten or Selwood too. All of those things i mentioned are missing from their game due to their physical attributes.

Christ, the fact you need that explained to you is why i find it annoying replying to your posts.

 

[Obeanie1]

Was Woewodin A grade?

Well for at least one season he was.

 

[Obeanie1]

So you're going to be happy we "loaded up on midfielders" who sit in the WAFL? That's realistically going to be this entire draft crop.

A midfield which will eventually consist of Sheed, Waterman and Duggan?

Seriously how can you make that call?

So none of our new draftees have a chance of improving our best 22 and making an AFL career?

 

[Obeanie1]

Gaff tested better - 3.07

Duggan - 3.1

WOW 0.03 of a second.

Case closed.

How old was Gaff v Duggan BTW?

And you are incorrect in stating you can't train and be coached and get faster. Running, sprint training is just another aspect that players and clubs work on after being drafted. Fast twitch muscle can be developed / improved with the right training methods. Sprinting styles can be improved on and developed and yes some players are more developed than others. Especially those who are low age recruits.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Seriously how can you make that call?

So none of our new draftees have a chance of improving our best 22 and making an AFL career?

What the hell are you talking about? Did i say that? All of these draftees immediate future is in the WAFL, not for the rest of their lives.

The fact you need that spelt out to you is gobsmacking.

WOW 0.03 of a second.

Case closed.

How old was Gaff v Duggan BTW?

And you are incorrect in stating you can't train and be coached and get faster. Running, sprint training is just another aspect that players and clubs work on after being drafted. Fast twitch muscle can be developed / improved with the right training methods. Sprinting styles can be improved on and developed and yes some players are more developed than others. Especially those who are low age recruits.

All i did was post the test results FFS. He said Duggan looked much faster, so i posted the results, which showed that Gaff was. Can you stop nitpicking every single post?

 

[Eaglemaniac]

This first part is beyond the point now. No evidence, just wishful thinking.

I'd be one of them. We lack quantity of midfielders, our depth midfielders have been sub par for years. As a result we've lacked any real internal competition for spots on ball and the class of our ball division has suffered, especially when one or two midfielders go down due to injury or suspension.

We've also played top heavy tall sides because "the best available team" hasn't got enough quality midfielders to draw upon. Such tall and top heavy sides have a negative effect on our running power. Loading up on midfielders is something we had to do, not all of them will necessarily work out but it's long overdue.

I think you just like to disagree with me for the sake of it now. We had pick 6 & 28 from memory and we traded 6 to get 11 and the extra pick 32. We then gave them 28 because we folded and wouldn't make Brisbane take 32 despite Yeo nominating us and wanting to leave. We then used 32 to get Karps, so we could of just given Brisbane 28 in the first place and kept 6 and tried to pick a higher quality mid.

Now you're just being silly. We've had plenty of midfielders go through our side in the last few years, without any real success. Just to name a few, Macnamara, Dalziel, Stevens, McGinnity, Swift, Hams, Sheppard were all picked as mids and have had limited or no success at AFL level for us. If just one or two of those had turned out to be a top quality mid to complement Shuey we'd be in a lot better place right now.

I agree we need to play more mids than talls like we have been last year, but we'd be able to do that if we'd gone for higher quality mids rather than just getting a bunch of average ones.

 

[Turky]

On exposed form Cockatoo wouldn't have ranked higher than Duggan. One good game in > 12 months v an entire season impressing and being almost a year younger.

I would hope our recruiters would have taken the more mature / informed choice if we had the option.

15 months actually, so I much prefer Duggan. Especially with how much the league develops in that one year really does make a difference to separate who the good and the average players are because they might just not be able to keep up with the development or playing against heavier bodies and things like that, so IMO cockatoo would have been a big IF. And I think it's better to be certain with a first round pick because, it's a first round pick.


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[94_Eagles]

The only problem we had was not having 2 top 15 picks.

 

[Obeanie1]

What the hell are you talking about? Did i say that? All of these draftees immediate future is in the WAFL, not for the rest of their lives.

The fact you need that spelt out to you is gobsmacking.

All i did was post the test results FFS. He said Duggan looked much faster, so i posted the results, which showed that Gaff was. Can you stop nitpicking every single post?

Quit posting so much negative crap and I will.

You keep complaining we didn't go for some super quick player with x factor or Laverde because he's a bit taller and instead we went for a classy left footer with poise and leadership qualities. How did Lewis Jetta go in last years GF, he has the exact traits you are calling for but he has a heart the size of a pea and no leadership qualities and was shown up on the biggest stage.

You seem to be demanding instant results from draftees and are not prepared to give them the time to develop and peak, very few player have sizable immediate impact.

Anyway I think we've both made our opinions clear enough. I'm happy to sit back and reserve judgement and give each and every one of the kids we pick up the time to show what they have to offer. Not all of them will make it but that's just how life works.

It would have been very interesting what your thoughts / comments would have been the year we drafted the lightly built Le cras later in the draft or Brett Heady 20 years ago. And you would have been jumping up and down with joy the year we wasted pick 6 on Ashley Sampi. Josh Simpson at Freo was a first rounder and just look how that turned out, again a fast, skilful outside mid with x factor, exactly what you've been raving about.........but he was immature and showed no commitment and was a total waste of a draft pick, time and effort by Freo.

 

[Jandamarra]

After adding Sheed and Waterman over the past two seasons to a midfield group that was already relatively slow and small, I think it was a mistake to recruit someone like Duggan. That's not to say Duggan wont be a good player, but he just doesnt suit our needs.

I really wish Cockatoo had of slipped to us, he would have had a far greater impact on our team in my opinion.

Very disappointed with our first round selection.

 

[Bender_]

All i did was post the test results FFS. He said Duggan looked much faster, so i posted the results, which showed that Gaff was. Can you stop nitpicking every single post?

I don't think that definitively shows that Gaff's faster really.

I'm no scientologist, but it's possible that Gaff my get to his top speed quicker than Duggan, but Duggan has a higher top speed, yeah?

 

[Eastern Rangers]

I think you just like to disagree with me for the sake of it now. We had pick 6 & 28 from memory and we traded 6 to get 11 and the extra pick 32. We then gave them 28 because we folded and wouldn't make Brisbane take 32 despite Yeo nominating us and wanting to leave. We then used 32 to get Karps, so we could of just given Brisbane 28 in the first place and kept 6 and tried to pick a higher quality mid.

Now you're just being silly. We've had plenty of midfielders go through our side in the last few years, without any real success. Just to name a few, Macnamara, Dalziel, Stevens, McGinnity, Swift, Hams, Sheppard were all picked as mids and have had limited or no success at AFL level for us. If just one or two of those had turned out to be a top quality mid to complement Shuey we'd be in a lot better place right now.

I agree we need to play more mids than talls like we have been last year, but we'd be able to do that if we'd gone for higher quality mids rather than just getting a bunch of average ones.

Whatever, if you write nonsense someone will call it. You're making claims about the Yeo trade you can't substantiate. It's wishful thinking.

In regards to the players mentioned Macnamara, Dalziel, McGinnity were never quality, simply dead ends that were poorly assessed and held onto for far too long due to poor list management.

Hams and Sheppard we're never fully fledge midfield prospects and have never been used as such at their time at the Eagles.

Stevens and Swift both had some talent, and both exited the club after just 3/4 years respectively (Ebert likewise a year earlier). Neither player has been with us the last two years and neither played with us at what would be their prime.

Again it comes down to turnover and the coaching staff assessing and developing players properly. You need to find two premiership quality players a year, they won't always come out of the first two rounds.

These new players need to be given time but the coaches need make the hard call on players once they're full abilities are meaningfully exposed at league level.





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[Johnno22]

After adding Sheed and Waterman over the past two seasons to a midfield group that was already relatively slow and small, I think it was a mistake to recruit someone like Duggan. That's not to say Duggan wont be a good player, but he just doesnt suit our needs.

I really wish Cockatoo had of slipped to us, he would have had a far greater impact on our team in my opinion.

Very disappointed with our first round selection.

I don't really agree with this.
I think you are underselling Duggan as there are many that believe that he will have a massive impact on our team over the next ten years and in more ways than just getting kicks on a weekend.

He has everything he needs to become a club great.

 

[Jandamarra]

I don't really agree with this.
I think you are underselling Duggan as there are many that believe that he will have a massive impact on our team over the next ten years and in more ways than just getting kicks on a weekend.

He has everything he needs to become a club great.

Oh I see, he's a 'good bloke'.

 

[Dark Sharks]

This good bloke thing sounds like it's being massively overplayed. Ebert had captain material written all over him. As did/does selwood.

Picking the nicest player available unfortunately isn't going to help us contend for a flag. I'm more interested in what he can do for us on the field.