Has Lance Franklin surpassed Wayne Carey as the greatest key forward of the modern era?

[Sweet Jesus]

Yeah but we aren't talking about athleticism for size are we?

It's the whole package.

The fact Franklin is that big and powerfully built yet still has that repeat running, acceleration and sideways movement is really a one-off.

In other words Buddy's speed, acceleration etc are off the.chart as you say, FOR HIS SIZE. It doesn't make.him.more athletic than someone 20kg lighter with better numbers in all those categories.

For a key forward, Franklin's athleticism – the combination of those traits – is unmatched, in my view.

I'd be interested to see GPS numbers for Carey v Franklin. If I had to bet, I'd guess Franklin covers more ground per game than Carey did. That's partly the nature of the modern game but it's only possible for Franklin because he's a freak athlete. Guys like Brown and Tredrea – broadly more comparable in terms of size and power – didn't have anywhere near that kind of running ability.

 

[LoungeLizard]

If you are going to use 1985 as the start of the modern era, the Snr. is easily better than both Carey and Franklin.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

If you are going to use 1985 as the start of the modern era, the Snr. is easily better than both Carey and Franklin.

When did Ablett become a key forward? How many seasons did he play as a key forward?

1993. Three great seasons. Plus a less successful 1996.

 

[OhhhhhCyril]

He'd go close, the only thing stoping bud is his inability to take overhead grabs. both players many times have single handily draged their teams over the line with brilliant and freakish football.

 

[LoungeLizard]

When did Ablett become a key forward? How many seasons did he play as a key forward?

Enough since 1985 to put this debate to rest imo.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Enough since 1985 to put this debate to rest imo.

Do you know?

 

[falcons2]

I don't think the two can be compared. Too different in style. Carey the crash and bash true key forward. Franklin is really only a tall flanker. More of the Daicos type. Having said that, I'd say Franklin and Daicos are the stand outs of whenever they are around the ball an expectation grows of what might happen and often does.

In summary, Franklin the most exciting forward. With strong bias, I'd probably pick, Brereton, Dunstall, Lockett and Ablett Sr. (not in order) before Carey as the best. I talk to my old man and he'll say there was Coleman = Bradman in footy terms, then talk about others.

 

[The 747]

I'd like to hear people make a real case.

For a long time, I've been of the view that the best player since Matthews (essentially since 1987, essentially the modern era) was either Carey or Ablett Sr, to the point that any contrary view could be dismissed out of hand. Anyone saying Voss or Hird or whoever simply didn't know how to process and address the question. I was willing to entertain the comparison between Carey and Ablett Sr, generally made according to certain well-worn metrics, but it was a conversation about two players. Any attempt to broaden that circle was, in my view, ill-conceived.

However, I think we are entering a window where a conversation about Franklin v Carey can at least be entertained. Ablett remains almost in a separate category because of the unique trajectory of his career. But in the comparison between two great key forwards, Franklin is now the same age as Carey was during his last season at North. And Franklin is still going strong. So there is a conversation to be had about whether Franklin can/might/will surpass Carey as the greatest key forward of the modern era. Or if he has already. We're at a threshold where that becomes a reasonable discussion.

Franklin is a superior athlete and a more potent goal-kicker. If he carries on like he has been for another three seasons, that extra longevity could be the clincher. And if he finishes with 300+ games and 1000+ goals, he will have an indisputably superior record.

At that point, people still backing Carey will be left making arguments about intangibles, like Carey's "presence" or "dominance", or that Carey was simply "on another level". I'm not sure that will really cut the mustard if Franklin has a better record, superior athleticism, a more potent goal-kicking record and greater longevity. That ticks a lot of boxes. Looking at it critically, the various intangibles around Carey would be overshadowed by those real arguments for Franklin.

So that's really all this thread is: an invitation to weigh the comparison critically. Most people seem to feel Franklin hasn't surpassed Carey yet. And that's fine. But I think it's actually a fair bit closer than many suggest. And, assuming Franklin doesn't suffer a major drop-off, every season that he plays henceforth narrows the gap ever further.

Goal kicking is not a comparison measure for these two, Carey usually had a genuine FF in the team and was the player involved in the play to get the ball to the FF. He did that and kicked his own goals as well. It was rare in the 90s to see a North Melbourne scoring play that didnt involve Carey (often having two dedicated opponents). North played through Carey as a CHF in a way that is now gone from the game. He regularly had 10+ marks, kicks and handballs in a lower possession era. As an on field captain he lifted when the team needed him in the way that Selwood does now. He was the most important player in a football side that I have ever seen (and that includes both Abletts).

Buddy is a great player in his own right and a legend of the game but even if he kicked 100 goals a year for the rest of his career he wouldn't be as good as Wayne Carey was as far as I am concerned. Have watched both players for their entire careers.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I don't think the two can be compared.

Of course they can.

Too different in style.

They're both athletic key forwards.

Of course they can be compared.

Two things don't need to be identical in style to warrant comparison.

Do you prefer sushi or pizza? I dunno, man. Can't compare. Too different in style.

Carey the crash and bash true key forward. Franklin is really only a tall flanker.

Franklin is taller and heavier. Both have played as super-athletic CHF/FF hybrids.

Again, it's really not a stretch to make the comparison.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Do you know?

Snr was a flanker wingman, if he was being tagged out of the game he was moved to back flank, later in his career he was a full forward.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Goal kicking is not a comparison measure for these two

Of course it is. It's one of the metrics.

Why would you insist on using less information to make an argument either way?

Carey usually had a genuine FF in the team and was the player involved in the play to get the ball to the FF. He did that and kicked his own goals as well. It was rare in the 90s to see a North Melbourne scoring play that didnt involve Carey (often having two dedicated opponents). North played through Carey as a CHF in a way that is now gone from the game. He regularly had 10+ marks, kicks and handballs in a lower possession era. As an on field captain he lifted when the team needed him in the way that Selwood does now. He was the most important player in a football side that I have ever seen (and that includes both Abletts).

Buddy is a great player in his own right and a legend of the game but even if he kicked 100 goals a year for the rest of his career he wouldn't be as good as Wayne Carey was as far as I am concerned. Have watched both players for their entire careers.

OK. They played in different teams with different game plans. I'm not sure that makes the case either way.

Again, if we're sitting here in 2020 and Franklin has continued his current output, and by then has 300+ games and 1000+ goals, this kind of argument won't cut the mustard.

In that event, Franklin will have the edge in goal-kicking, athleticism, longevity and overall record. It won't be an intelligent answer to simply say: "Nah, Carey."

If people still think Carey, so be it. But make a real case.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Snr was a flanker wingman, if he was being tagged out of the game he was moved to back flank, later in his career he was a full forward.

OK. So he played how many years as a key forward?

 

[demondavey]

No troll Brown was statistically better AND he has more premierships

Statistically better than Franklin? Please produce these stats.

 

[LoungeLizard]

OK. So he played how many years as a key forward?

Key forward?
Most of his years he was a key forward, same as Franklin

 

[Brad Goodman]

Franklin is difficult to categorise. He obviously isn't a small forward or a medium forward, but is he a key forward?

 

[MinerBoy]

Not sure if Buddy has even surpassed Tredrea and Brown. I am not saying he hasn't, but there isn't much between those three.
I think people forget just how dominant Tredrea was about 15 years ago.

Without question he has IMO.

Carey still the best.

 

[demondavey]

Best since Carey, no question, but Carey was next level in his day. It'll take something very special to surpass him.

Dragged an average football side to 3 GFs and 2 flags on his own shoulders. Take him out and North don't get anywhere near those flags.

By way of comparison, Buddy leaves us and we win the next 2 flags without him.

Says a lot.

Don't presume Carey dragged them to those premierships. He kicked one goal in the 1996 GF and 2 goals in 1999.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Snr was a flanker wingman, if he was being tagged out of the game he was moved to back flank, later in his career he was a full forward.

Key forward?
Most of his years he was a key forward, same as Franklin

Sorry, which one is it?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Franklin is difficult to categorise. He obviously isn't a small forward or a medium forward, but is he a key forward?

Yes. Without question.

 

[Kwality]

Jonathan Brown was better than both.

I'd take Dermie for my own sheer enjoyment, not much between them.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Sorry, which one is it?

What?
you asked was he a key forward, and i answered.
Did you mean KPF?
Do you know that Franklin has not always played as a KPF?

 

[falcons2]

Again, it's really not a stretch to make the comparison.

I'm sticking with it is too hard to compare.
Carey was the sort of player to put it up in the air and he will find a way.
Franklin more get it into his hands anywhere within 60m and stuff happens.

In the 2010's game Franklin is the more valuable player, so for today's footy yes Franklin has passed Carey.
In the 1990's it was Carey due to style of game, so for 90's footy Carey will not be surpassed.

 

[Roddy]

Don't presume Carey dragged them to those premierships. He kicked one goal in the 1996 GF and 2 goals in 1999.

There was way, way way more to Carey than goals kicked. Something intangible and indefinable that goes way beyond mere statistics. He made everyone around him walk taller and play better.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

you asked was he a key forward, and i answered.
Did you mean KPF?

Are you saying a key forward is not the same as a key position forward? Are they different things?

That's news to me.

You agree Ablett Sr started as a wingman/HFF. But you also say he spent most of his years as a key forward.

I don't see how both can be true.

He was a wingman/HFF until he transitioned to FF in 1993, where he had three great years and an interrupted final season in 1996.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

 

[vanders]

They're two completely different players. With that said Buddy has been in the league for over 10 years and still struggles to hold a mark above his head.

If he could manage to stick those he'd be close but Carey is still slightly in front of him.

Both are/were brilliant to watch at their best and worth the entry price alone.