List Mgmt. 2020 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals

[Blacky]

I agree with most of this. The players we have brought in have all been disappointing.

But I don't think we should judge this trade on bringing Hickey in (at least not totally, of course if he doesn't play at all its a failure), it's whether or not it keeps Aliir.

If Aliir leaves then it is a massive flop of a trade, which I won't disagree with.

What about if Aliir is no good?

If we brought hickey in for a year then fine, but we are wasting a list spot, salary cap and draft capital on a bloke who is basically on the scrap heap. This is with likely reduced list sizes and salary cap. I think it’s a terrible move.

 

[Kapers]

Yes. That would be fine. Goal posts haven’t moved at all.

Let me put this in plain English for you. Hickey is terrible. This move is terrible. The club’s list management has been terrible. Bookmark this.

The goal posts were:

Aliir is playing ruck = terrible player management

Showed other teams have done the same thing

Aliir is playing ruck at the beginning of the game = terrible player management

Aliir plays at any other time in the ruck = Richmond player management.

Not moved at all.......

Also what are the goal posts for proving your post wrong in the future incase you move them again.

What makes the move not terrible in your opinion.

 

[Kapers]

How long will this loyalty last when we are bottom 4 every year?

Dude, I've been on the side of trading our pick 3 since basically the beginning. I think we need to move up the ladder asap. I don't think the Hickey deal will change our ladder position at all over the next 3 years, it's only there to make Aliir happy.

 

[Kapers]

What about if Aliir is no good?

If we brought hickey in for a year then fine, but we are wasting a list spot, salary cap and draft capital on a bloke who is basically on the scrap heap. This is with likely reduced list sizes and salary cap. I think it’s a terrible move.

If Aliir is no good then it's a failed trade. Happy to admit that.

 

[Blacky]

The goal posts were:

Aliir is playing ruck = terrible player management

Showed other teams have done the same thing

Aliir is playing ruck at the beginning of the game = terrible player management

Aliir plays at any other time in the ruck = Richmond player management.

Not moved at all.......

Also what are the goal posts for proving your post wrong in the future incase you move them again.

What makes the move not terrible in your opinion.

We had to start Aliir in the ruck due to mismanagement. I feel like this isn’t being comprehended.

The irony of it all is that the example you used was Richmond whose 3x premiership player ruckman is someone we turfed off for sweet fa.

 

[Gra_76199]

If we have to trade for hickey because he's contracted while Vardy is out of contract... I mean there's no real difference between them, both 29, average and injury issues in the past. So maybe we should be more interested in Vardy.

 

[BloodySwan]

Hickey doesn't seem an upgrade on Sinclair, seems to just be a slightly younger version

 

[Kapers]

We had to start Aliir in the ruck due to mismanagement. I feel like this isn’t being comprehended.

The irony of it all is that the example you used was Richmond whose 3x premiership player ruckman is someone we turfed off for sweet fa.

That's not irony, it was a deliberate example. I'm saying that even the best club has mismanagement in their ruck stocks.

Also I feel like Aliir starting in the ruck vs playing in the ruck throughout the game carries no meaningful difference, and if there is one I am missing it.

 

[Blacky]

Dude, I've been on the side of trading our pick 3 since basically the beginning. I think we need to move up the ladder asap. I don't think the Hickey deal will change our ladder position at all over the next 3 years, it's only there to make Aliir happy.

To me, being forced into trading for a pretty terrible player to keep another player who isnt in our top 10 players, may not actually be good, and may end up leaving anyway, is poor management.

 

[Blacky]

That's not irony, it was a deliberate example. I'm saying that even the best club has mismanagement in their ruck stocks.

Also I feel like Aliir starting in the ruck vs playing in the ruck throughout the game carries no meaningful difference, and if there is one I am missing it.

The distinguishable difference is that Richmond actually had a proper ruckman play the majority of the game in the ruck. We had a backman play ruck because we ran out of options. We ran out of options because we traded Nank and Cameron and held onto a bunch of untested players and broken down players.

 

[Kapers]

To me, being forced into trading for a pretty terrible player to keep another player who isnt in our top 10 players, may not actually be good, and may end up leaving anyway, is poor management.

I don't agree with you saying that he's not top ten (inb4 you point to B&F, he had a pretty bad year compared to 2019, so I feel he has a lot of upside), but I would agree that if Aliir isn't any good next year it's a failure. I rate Aliir higher than you and that's fine.

 

[Kapers]

The distinguishable difference is that Richmond actually had a proper ruckman play the majority of the game in the ruck. We had a backman play ruck because we ran out of options. We ran out of options because we traded Nank and Cameron and held onto a bunch of untested players and broken down players.

What games are you talking about? I honestly have no clue. End of 2019 was terrible for our ruckman, we lost like 4 of 5, then this year Sinclair played every game but one from memory(could be wrong here). We did exactly what Richmond did when they lost their #1, played our best back up in Sinclair and had Aliir play through the ruck as well as our best jumper.

 

[Blacky]

I don't agree with you saying that he's not top ten (inb4 you point to B&F, he had a pretty bad year compared to 2019, so I feel he has a lot of upside), but I would agree that if Aliir isn't any good next year it's a failure. I rate Aliir higher than you and that's fine.

Who is he better than out of
Papley
Rampe
Parker
Heen
Mills
Rowbottom
Buddy
Lloyd
Dawson
McCartin?

 

[caesar88]

Caesar88, I know you are Aliirs biggest fan. I just think that his defensive work has some obvious weaknesses that recur. A failure to occasionally lose his man on the lead. A propensity to get caught with the ball in our defensive half. Imo THAT is why he was being tried elsewhere......up forward and chop outs in the ruck. Coaching staff shouldn’t have to explain themselves when they call upon a player any player to play out of position due to team injury toll. As a professional player you just DO. He is a player to keep but I think it’s poor that he is dictating where he plays or else he goes. Yeah we have ruck issues which have persisted longer than perhaps they should. Personally I think trying him elsewhere is worthwhile despite his thoughts he is best served in defence. Can’t see his own weaknesses

Haha I am not Aliir's biggest fan actually, he doesn't even crack my top 5 Swans. That notion rears it's head when I stick up for him every time this board gets short-term memory loss where he is concerned. His best is elite, his worst is terrible. There isn't much of an in-between with him. But his worst has always come when he's had an interrupted run at playing in defence.

His worst periods have included:

Early 2017, when he was dropped in round 5 after a limited pre-season recovering from the knee injury he sustained in the 2016 PF (didn't play any of the JLT matches and was rushed back for round 1.) Not seen again for the rest of 2017 after his alarm clock mishap.

Early 2018, had an ankle injury in the first JLT match, and once recovered was brought back as a forward against the Bulldogs in round 4, where he was unsurprisingly terrible, and was again dropped.

End of 2019, when he was moved to the ruck, and was getting belted most weeks.

All of 2020, when his season timeline went as follows: trained as both ruck and defender, plays 1 game in defence, 3 month shutdown, plays 3 games in defence, plays 1 game in the ruck (against Naitanui where he is flogged), dropped the next week because of that flogging, returns for a one-month patch that includes 2 games in defence and 2 games in ruck, then gets an injury, comes back for the final five matches where he looked better, but was still switching between defence and ruck. (Head-spin season!)

His best periods have included:

Second half of 2016 (including 11 straight games), where he was outstanding in defence and in All Australian form, on the back of a run in the NEAFL as a defender.

Second half of 2018 (including 11 straight games), where he was again outstanding in defence and in All Australian form, posted the best contested loss % of anyone in the AFL, and was voted our sixth-best player, despite missing half a season, by this very board. On the back of a run in the NEAFL as a defender after the terrible decision to play him forward earlier in the year.

First half of 2019 (including 13 straight games), where he was once again outstanding in defence, anchored our back-line with Rampe (when there were no other key defenders - Melican was horribly out of form, Grundy didn't play all year), and voted our fifth-best player by this very board. On the back of a full pre-season.

The common denominators in his worst periods are injuries and inconsistency of position. The common denominators in his best periods are consistency of his position and ability to train in said position.

So I am not an Aliir fan-boy, I just judge him based on how he has performed when given a fair run at it, and don't re-write history as soon as he loses form when not given a fair run at it.

 

[Bear31]

I don’t think it is a solution. It’s a dumb move and he won’t play meaningful games for us and will clog our list for 3 years.

Our list management has been sh*t and this move doesn’t look like changing that.

You need to look at the big picture at what Sydney are building. Don't just judge every trade as being a player that is going to be with us long term. Some trades are done for different reasons. As I have said before we are a young team and losing experience each year. We have traded in guys like Thurlow, Taylor, Gray and now Hickey. We are a bottom 4 team. We need experienced players around while we get games into our young draftees. Some on here think we can just go out and get anyone we want and when we dont they throw their toys out of the cot. We have little trade capital this year if we draft pick 3 and Campbell and Gulden. What do we have left for much else except for a cheap ruck. We will want to develop our own ruck long term. Hickey is the short term fix while our young ruck/s develop.

 

[Gra_76199]

You need to look at the big picture at what Sydney are building. Don't just judge every trade as being a player that is going to be with us long term. Some trades are done for different reasons. As I have said before we are a young team and losing experience each year. We have traded in guys like Thurlow, Taylor, Gray and now Hickey. We are a bottom 4 team. We need experienced players around while we get games into our young draftees. Some on here think we can just go out and get anyone we want and when we dont they throw their toys out of the cot. We have little trade capital this year if we draft pick 3 and Campbell and Gulden. What do we have left for much else except for a cheap ruck. We will want to develop our own ruck long term. Hickey is the short term fix while our young ruck/s develop.

You've hit the nail on the head here.

 

[Bear31]

Dude, I've been on the side of trading our pick 3 since basically the beginning. I think we need to move up the ladder asap. I don't think the Hickey deal will change our ladder position at all over the next 3 years, it's only there to make Aliir happy.

No its not. Its been done to grow a young ruck in the meantime.

 

[McRobie]

I know people have posted re this, 3 years for Hickey? This without question would be most moronic signing in my 35 years as a swans fan.
The clubs clearly got 0 pull for free agents, and we just pick up scraps like Gray and Taylor.
Pretty sad fall from grace when we used to be trend setters at the trade table.
You can only point towards the men in charge at the club since the franklin signing, its not good enough.

 

[brad cooper]

The distinguishable difference is that Richmond actually had a proper ruckman play the majority of the game in the ruck. We had a backman play ruck because we ran out of options. We ran out of options because we traded Nank and Cameron and held onto a bunch of untested players and broken down players.

that's just incorrect, when Nankervis requested a trade to leave we had Tippett Sinclair and Naismith, we then drafted Cameron that same year to replace him.

I do agree with you though I think that not drafting trading for a ruck since 2017 has been a mistake.

 

[Blacky]

You need to look at the big picture at what Sydney are building. Don't just judge every trade as being a player that is going to be with us long term. Some trades are done for different reasons. As I have said before we are a young team and losing experience each year. We have traded in guys like Thurlow, Taylor, Gray and now Hickey. We are a bottom 4 team. We need experienced players around while we get games into our young draftees. Some on here think we can just go out and get anyone we want and when we dont they throw their toys out of the cot. We have little trade capital this year if we draft pick 3 and Campbell and Gulden. What do we have left for much else except for a cheap ruck. We will want to develop our own ruck long term. Hickey is the short term fix while our young ruck/s develop.

3 years isn’t short term.

I have already said I’d rather build through the draft than take absolute list cloggers in Thurlow, Taylor, Clarke and Gray. We actually played better footy when these guys didn’t play. I struggle to see them bring anything to the table.

It really frustrates me that those who think the club is infallible trot out lines about toys out of the cot and being a bad fan for not sucking down the kool aid and trying to employ critical thinking in respect of the moves the club is making.

We are a bottom 4 side and our recruiting has been terrible. Guys like Florent and Hayward have not progressed. The alarm bells are ringing for me and a move to take a ruckman no one wants for 3 years to keep a guy who was dropped this year happy doesn’t instil me with confidence.

 

[Corpuscles]

If we have to trade for hickey because he's contracted while Vardy is out of contract... I mean there's no real difference between them, both 29, average and injury issues in the past. So maybe we should be more interested in Vardy.

The problem is to up root older players from WA they will want at least 3 years and WCE have not offered them that and they live there.
Relocate family and new house etc etc

There has to be a quality stop gap ruckman playing in WAFL SANFL NTFL VFL regional VIC or Riverina NSW or Cairns that would LOVE the late chance to have a decent crack at AFL.

Knoll was not a good comparision he was a USA College basketballer albeit ozzie but very new to the game.
GET someone who knows the craft and has the muscle and mongrel to compete hard and at least nullify the effect of AFL standard rucks.
All the better if he is mid 20's. Keep him and send a rocket up Amarty to immediately 'piss or get off the pot'!

 

[Kummerspeck]

.
The irony of it all is that the example you used was Richmond whose 3x premiership player ruckman is someone we turfed off for sweet fa.

By "turfed" you mean "offered a contract extension" before he left as soon as his rookie contract was up?

 

[Blacky]

By "turfed" you mean "offered a contract extension" before he left as soon as his rookie contract was up?

Would you have preferred I said “didn’t offer a good enough contract so he left”?

 

[BloodySwan]

If Cameron stays a Giant we should go after Preuss again

 

[Kummerspeck]

Would you have preferred I said “didn’t offer a good enough contract so he left”?

You could, but you'd just be making stuff up as you don't know the terms of the contract.