List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

 

[L_W_P]

The Naughton stuff is silly IMO - do we draft Max King if we already have Naughton? I'd rather have Max.

We might have taken Rozee instead, assuming we worked out that Naughton could play forward.

LWPs "Hindsight Saints" starting 23 -

2012 - Keep our picks, no trading for Tom Lee, Hickey etc. Take Grundy at pick 12. Aiden Corr at 13. Not much in this draft TBH.
2013 - Bont, Merrett & McStay over Billings, Dunstan & Acres. Charlie Cameron over Eli Templeton in the rookie draft.
2014 - Take the GWS deal - Picks 1 + 22 for 4 + 6. Draft De Goey (4), Lever (6) & Touk Miller (21). Take Caleb Daniel over Jack Lonie. Sinc a rookie.
2015 - Keep the Carlisle deal. Bid on Dunkley instead of taking Gresham. Swans didn't match as Josh wanted to stay in VIC at the time. Matt Flynn over Brandon White. Sam Collins over Bailey Rice. Tom Papley in the rookie draft.
2016 - Keep the Steele trade. Take Shai Bolton over Ben Long. Tom Stewart over Josh Battle. Luke Ryan over Ed Phillips. RoMa in the rookie draft was good too.
2017 - Naughton and Zac Bailey over Clark and Coff. Harry Petty over Clavarino. I like the Ben Paton pick but could argue for Kane Farrell or Jack Payne. Liam Baker in the rookie draft.
2018 - Can King and Naughton work together? I rekon they can. Keep the Bytel pick. Lachie Schultz over Nick Hind. Take Marlion Pickett over Robbie Young. Wilkie in the rookie draft a steal.
2019 - Dont trade for Hill, Doogs and Ryder. Take Serong pick 6. Byrnes all good. Connelly fine. No idea who Jack Bell was but use that rookie pick on Ben Keays.
2020 - Trade for Higgins. Errol Gulden over Matty Allison. Highmore good depth.
2021 - Heath and Sharman midseason all good. Van Rooyan over Nas. Match Owens and Windy. Oscar Adams any good? Greg Clark looks handy at the Eagles. Grab him instead.
2022 - Phillipou a great pick. Leave the rest. Impossible to judge.

FB: Wilkie - Collins - Lever
HB: Ryan - Stewart - Sinclair
C: Daniel - Merrett - Bailey
HF: De Goey - Naughton - Papley
FF: C.Cameron - King - Marshall
R: Grundy - Bontempelli - Miller
I: Dunkley - Steele - Bolton - Serong
S: Owens

Depth:
KPD: Corr - Carlisle (ret) - Petty - JVE
KPF: McStay - Van Rooyan - Keeler
3rd talls: Highmore - Sharman
Smalls: Paton - Schultz - Connolly - Higgins
Mids: Bytel - Byrnes - Pickett - Baker - Windhager - G.Clark - Pou - Hotton - Keays - Gulden
Rucks: Flynn - Heath


All feeling better now?

 

[The Punter]

We might have taken Rozee instead, assuming we worked out that Naughton could play forward.

LWPs "Hindsight Saints" starting 23 -

2012 - Keep our picks, no trading for Tom Lee, Hickey etc. Take Grundy at pick 12. Aiden Corr at 13. Not much in this draft TBH.
2013 - Bont, Merrett & McStay over Billings, Dunstan & Acres. Charlie Cameron over Eli Templeton in the rookie draft.
2014 - Take the GWS deal - Picks 1 + 22 for 4 + 6. Draft De Goey (4), Lever (6) & Touk Miller (21). Take Caleb Daniel over Jack Lonie. Sinc a rookie.
2015 - Keep the Carlisle deal. Bid on Dunkley instead of taking Gresham. Swans didn't match as Josh wanted to stay in VIC at the time. Matt Flynn over Brandon White. Sam Collins over Bailey Rice. Tom Papley in the rookie draft.
2016 - Keep the Steele trade. Take Shai Bolton over Ben Long. Tom Stewart over Josh Battle. Luke Ryan over Ed Phillips. RoMa in the rookie draft was good too.
2017 - Naughton and Zac Bailey over Clark and Coff. Harry Petty over Clavarino. I like the Ben Paton pick but could argue for Kane Farrell or Jack Payne. Liam Baker in the rookie draft.
2018 - Can King and Naughton work together? I rekon they can. Keep the Bytel pick. Lachie Schultz over Nick Hind. Take Marlion Pickett over Robbie Young. Wilkie in the rookie draft a steal.
2019 - Dont trade for Hill, Doogs and Ryder. Take Serong pick 6. Byrnes all good. Connelly fine. No idea who Jack Bell was but use that rookie pick on Ben Keays.
2020 - Trade for Higgins. Errol Gulden over Matty Allison. Highmore good depth.
2021 - Heath and Sharman midseason all good. Van Rooyan over Nas. Match Owens and Windy. Oscar Adams any good? Greg Clark looks handy at the Eagles. Grab him instead.
2022 - Phillipou a great pick. Leave the rest. Impossible to judge.

FB: Wilkie - Collins - Lever
HB: Ryan - Stewart - Sinclair
C: Daniel - Merrett - Bailey
HF: De Goey - Naughton - Papley
FF: C.Cameron - King - Marshall
R: Grundy - Bontempelli - Miller
I: Dunkley - Steele - Bolton - Serong
S: Owens

Depth:
KPD: Corr - Carlisle (ret) - Petty - JVE
KPF: McStay - Van Rooyan - Keeler
3rd talls: Highmore - Sharman
Smalls: Paton - Schultz - Connolly - Higgins
Mids: Bytel - Byrnes - Pickett - Baker - Windhager - Clark - Pou - Hotton - Keays - Gulden
Rucks: Flynn - Heath


All feeling better now?

Nope - I hate the hindsight stuff.

Here are my rules for judging players per where they were drafted:

• was the selection based on the best available information? If so, Billings over Bont is entirely defensible.
• are you comparing our selection to any player drafted by Geelong or Sydney? Because that's not fair. They could draft ANYONE and they'd be better. It's called development.
• was the player from outside Victoria and drafted by a home state club? Because they're going home, and everyone knows it.

Having said all that, in the last 20 years, we've made two entirely indefensible decisions IMO:

• drafting Ryan Gamble
• letting Brendon Goddard leave

 

[Joffaboy]

How do we get pick 4 in 2018 and pick 6 in 2019 with all those great hindsight picks, we would be in the finals.

 

[L_W_P]

Nope - I hate the hindsight stuff.

Here are my rules for judging players per where they were drafted:

• was the selection based on the best available information? If so, Billings over Bont is entirely defensible.
• are you comparing our selection to any player drafted by Geelong or Sydney? Because that's not fair. They could draft ANYONE and they'd be better. It's called development.
• was the player from outside Victoria and drafted by a home state club? Because they're going home, and everyone knows it.

Having said all that, in the last 20 years, we've made two entirely indefensible decisions IMO:

• drafting Ryan Gamble
• letting Brendon Goddard leave

Oh I agree 100%

Just thought I'd put it out there so all the people who want to have a sook can go to that post for a little cry in their own time.

Meanwhile the rest of us will zoom out and look to the future based on the list we have right now.

 

[L_W_P]

How do we get pick 4 in 2018 and pick 6 in 2019 with all those great hindsight picks, we would be in the finals.

Not if Richo has Bont playing in the ruck ala Acres with Fat-Tracca plonked as a stubby full forward who's never gonna pull his finger out and actually get fit.

Post was a bit of a poke at all the people that whinge about past issues.

We've made plenty of 'mistakes'. Nothing can be done about it. Gotta keep moving forward.

 

[AirWinmar]

I got laughed at for suggesting chasing Tom Mitchell last year. Another inside bull would be handy. Matt Crouch on $400k in reserve would be handy. He was better than Brad when the Crows were playing off in a flag and younger.

Mitchell wouldn’t have been free though. That would have been at the cost of one or two of the kids we took in last years draft.

And then we would have had one extra 29/30 year old mid that would be taking time away from the kids we desperately need to develop.

Pies were a kick off playing in a grand final so it made sense for them to go after him. We area fair way off that.

Still a lot of games to play out. Very keen to see Windy, Owens and Bytel get some mid time in the 1sts.
If we got Mitchell our midfield would likely be him Steele Crouch Ross with cameos from Gresh and Sincs every game. Be hard to fit too many others in. Particularly Owens looks like he'll be ready to do damage in there when he gets the chance.
It's more of a sure bet with Mitchell but we need to see what our young mids have got to set us up for the future

 

[Coconut_twirl]

I think most people on this board were wanting Clark and Coffield before Naughton. Most draft pundits had these two ahead of Naughton if I’m not mistaken.

Ditto Billings. Most had Billings over Bont.

Hindsight stuff is silly. Billings, Clark and Coffield have all played a fair bit of senior football and are still on an AFL list, so it’s not like it’s a total blunder.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I think most people on this board were wanting Clark and Coffield before Naughton. Most draft pundits had these two ahead of Naughton if I’m not mistaken.

Ditto Billings. Most had Billings over Bont.

Hindsight stuff is silly. Billings, Clark and Coffield have all played a fair bit of senior football and are still on an AFL list, so it’s not like it’s a total blunder.

Naughton had massive queries over his ability to drop the ball on his foot & make it go where he wanted.

At a time when we were crying out for midfielders and runners, taking a key defender that early would have seen meltdowns of Paddy/Petracca proportions.

Naughton would also have been Richo'd then Ratted.

Think Josh Battle without the kicking skills.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

How do we get pick 4 in 2018 and pick 6 in 2019 with all those great hindsight picks, we would be in the finals.

Pick six was our original pick in 2019 , before we started trading.
Then we traded it for 12 and 18. Which could have given us Sam DeKonig and Will Day if we hadn't kept trading.

Pick 4 2018 was our pick, its what we used for Max.

The only mistake i saw was "Gulden" who was an academy pick.
I see retrospectives only useful as in they can be used as a gap analysis.

For example, 2019 was a horrible year to cough up big for Hill. There were too many great choices in that draft.
By contrast , the Tom Hickey deal was fine, Hickey has probably had a better career than Aiden Corr.

Around 5 years ago i made an excel draft picker.
It didn't include the first round.
I put all the names that were eventually picked in the draft from the start of 2nd round to the rookies.
I then used a random number generator to pick players who were not already taken as the actual draft happened.
I assumed that we still made the trades we made, so the draft picks were the same.

It was really dumb, with no weighting at all, did stupid things like picking rookies in the second round.

Over the period of time , (five or six years i think ) it did a better job of drafting than our actual drafters had.
Even some of the second round rookies were players who held down a spot, more than our actual draftees did.

Couldn't believe it.
Ran it again, and it still picked a better list than our drafters.

 

[gringo2011]

Nope - I hate the hindsight stuff.

Here are my rules for judging players per where they were drafted:

• was the selection based on the best available information? If so, Billings over Bont is entirely defensible.
• are you comparing our selection to any player drafted by Geelong or Sydney? Because that's not fair. They could draft ANYONE and they'd be better. It's called development.
• was the player from outside Victoria and drafted by a home state club? Because they're going home, and everyone knows it.

Having said all that, in the last 20 years, we've made two entirely indefensible decisions IMO:

• drafting Ryan Gamble
• letting Brendon Goddard leave

There is no world where you can defend our drafting over between about 2003 and 2018. Less rising stars less AAs less actual stars than any other side in that period. The real issue is that it wasn't addressed. Carlton were the same, you take years to catch up. It means you have to trade or find alternatives to fill up your list which costs captal and gives less tickets in the lottery.

The real incompetence is leaving it unchecked and not replacing the drafting team. Carlton were so bad before Sos that they were embarrassing and a lot like us. Melbourne stuffed up everything they touched for years and it was ironically our poor drafting that gave them their first real turbo boost in their list build (2014) allowing them to take Petracca and Brayshaw along with Neale-Bullen who we were linked to and Oscar McDonald in one draft. They then regularly traded up to take quality talent like Oliver. Seven years after taking Petracca they had a premiership.

I have never bought the idea that if players are good at a big club that they would have failed at a lesser club. If that was the case there would ladder position would never change. Some development and opportunity is easier to achieve at a club down the ladder. Gold Coast stuffed up so many picks... now have too many guns to fit them all.

A club that turns over a lot of players and doesn't draft can get stuck in a cycle that keeps repeating and I think that's where we got to. Always grabbing at shiny things (usually broken ones) with no plan for an actual build. We wanted to defy the system and do it the easy way like Carlton did.

 

[The Punter]

I have never bought the idea that if players are good at a big club that they would have failed at a lesser club. If that was the case there would ladder position would never change. Some development and opportunity is easier to achieve at a club down the ladder. Gold Coast stuffed up so many picks... now have too many guns to fit them all.

Have you counted the number of finals appearances for Sydney and Geelong this century? Who played in the grand final last year?

I'm on the record: the ladder doesn't change enough for my liking.

Of the ten teams to miss the finals last year, only two had won a premiership this century.

Of the eight teams to make the finals last year, six had premiership players with that club on their teams.

The ladder doesn't bloody change.

 

[OxSaint]

I think most people on this board were wanting Clark and Coffield before Naughton. Most draft pundits had these two ahead of Naughton if I’m not mistaken.

Ditto Billings. Most had Billings over Bont.

Hindsight stuff is silly. Billings, Clark and Coffield have all played a fair bit of senior football and are still on an AFL list, so it’s not like it’s a total blunder.

I was actually keen to take a punt on Fogarty with Clarke.

 

[L_W_P]

Have you counted the number of finals appearances for Sydney and Geelong this century? Who played in the grand final last year?

I'm on the record: the ladder doesn't change enough for my liking.

Of the ten teams to miss the finals last year, only two had won a premiership this century.

Of the eight teams to make the finals last year, six had premiership players with that club on their teams.

The ladder doesn't bloody change.

100% this.

We are in an era of the game where the top teams remain perennial contenders for multiple generations. Winning a single flag like the Dogs and Eagles is actually a failure. You need multiple flags to be considered a 'great' team.

 

[PoppedCorn]

If dow cant kick then i dont want

No point taking blokes who cant hit targets

 

[Tommy Wigs]

If dow cant kick then i dont want

No point taking blokes who cant hit targets

There’s no if here.

 

[PoppedCorn]

There’s no if here.

I stand corrected.

Dow cant kick so i dont want

 

[XhazzafootyX]

A few names that could be on the move end of year

Dylan stephens

15

Dylan Stephens

Age

23

Ht

184cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.3

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.0

1star

D

10.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.3

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.7

3star

CL

0.0

1star

D

10.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.3

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.0

1star

Miles Bergman
Liam Henry
Sam Flanders

 

[botts]

Just looking at draft centrals top 20. 5 are untouchable. 3 to Gold Coast 1 Fs to hawthorn and 1 to the dog. s**t draft to be in the middle

 

[DougalHoward]

Nobody picked up Kai Owens in the mid season

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

We might have taken Rozee instead, assuming we worked out that Naughton could play forward.

LWPs "Hindsight Saints" starting 23 -

2012 - Keep our picks, no trading for Tom Lee, Hickey etc. Take Grundy at pick 12. Aiden Corr at 13. Not much in this draft TBH.
2013 - Bont, Merrett & McStay over Billings, Dunstan & Acres. Charlie Cameron over Eli Templeton in the rookie draft.
2014 - Take the GWS deal - Picks 1 + 22 for 4 + 6. Draft De Goey (4), Lever (6) & Touk Miller (21). Take Caleb Daniel over Jack Lonie. Sinc a rookie.
2015 - Keep the Carlisle deal. Bid on Dunkley instead of taking Gresham. Swans didn't match as Josh wanted to stay in VIC at the time. Matt Flynn over Brandon White. Sam Collins over Bailey Rice. Tom Papley in the rookie draft.
2016 - Keep the Steele trade. Take Shai Bolton over Ben Long. Tom Stewart over Josh Battle. Luke Ryan over Ed Phillips. RoMa in the rookie draft was good too.
2017 - Naughton and Zac Bailey over Clark and Coff. Harry Petty over Clavarino. I like the Ben Paton pick but could argue for Kane Farrell or Jack Payne. Liam Baker in the rookie draft.
2018 - Can King and Naughton work together? I rekon they can. Keep the Bytel pick. Lachie Schultz over Nick Hind. Take Marlion Pickett over Robbie Young. Wilkie in the rookie draft a steal.
2019 - Dont trade for Hill, Doogs and Ryder. Take Serong pick 6. Byrnes all good. Connelly fine. No idea who Jack Bell was but use that rookie pick on Ben Keays.
2020 - Trade for Higgins. Errol Gulden over Matty Allison. Highmore good depth.
2021 - Heath and Sharman midseason all good. Van Rooyan over Nas. Match Owens and Windy. Oscar Adams any good? Greg Clark looks handy at the Eagles. Grab him instead.
2022 - Phillipou a great pick. Leave the rest. Impossible to judge.

FB: Wilkie - Collins - Lever
HB: Ryan - Stewart - Sinclair
C: Daniel - Merrett - Bailey
HF: De Goey - Naughton - Papley
FF: C.Cameron - King - Marshall
R: Grundy - Bontempelli - Miller
I: Dunkley - Steele - Bolton - Serong
S: Owens

Depth:
KPD: Corr - Carlisle (ret) - Petty - JVE
KPF: McStay - Van Rooyan - Keeler
3rd talls: Highmore - Sharman
Smalls: Paton - Schultz - Connolly - Higgins
Mids: Bytel - Byrnes - Pickett - Baker - Windhager - G.Clark - Pou - Hotton - Keays - Gulden
Rucks: Flynn - Heath


All feeling better now?

******* hell that looks like the all australian team! wings a bit s**t

 

[Parkysp]

Have you counted the number of finals appearances for Sydney and Geelong this century? Who played in the grand final last year?

I'm on the record: the ladder doesn't change enough for my liking.

Of the ten teams to miss the finals last year, only two had won a premiership this century.

Of the eight teams to make the finals last year, six had premiership players with that club on their teams.

The ladder doesn't bloody change.

Absolutely. The draft should go teams 18 to 9 then 18 to 9 again then 8 to 1 then 18 to 1 for remainder of rounds.
Would turbo charge teams and get the current BS of locked in top 4s that last for 5 years out of the framework.
Within 5 years teams would be in and out of the top 8 so getting bites at the draft at a good pick.

I'd make the 10 to 18 picks tradeable but not 1 to 9.

That would be my version of putting a rocket into the AFL draft and quicker team rebuilds.

 

[OxSaint]

I think we should be having a red hot crack at Himmelberg.

Plus sniffing around moneyball options like

Lachie Schulz
Sam Flanders
Kai Lohmann
Nick Bryan
Alex Sexton

6

Alex Sexton

Age

30

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.4

3star

K

8.3

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

316.2

4star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.3

3star

HB

2.3

2star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.9

3star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

Hugo Hall Kahan
Hayden McLean

2

Hayden Mclean

Age

25

Ht

197cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

4.0

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.3

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

10.0

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

G

0.2

3star

I think we will see an abnormally larger number of player turnover at the end of the year so we can’t just replace all of them with draft picks.

 

[gringo2011]

Still a lot of games to play out. Very keen to see Windy, Owens and Bytel get some mid time in the 1sts.
If we got Mitchell our midfield would likely be him Steele Crouch Ross with cameos from Gresh and Sincs every game. Be hard to fit too many others in. Particularly Owens looks like he'll be ready to do damage in there when he gets the chance.
It's more of a sure bet with Mitchell but we need to see what our young mids have got to set us up for the future

The last couple of years have derailed when injury hit midfielders. Depth is holding us back.

 

[StCicatriz]

Robert Hansen subiaco. Very quick. Very aggressive with defensive pressure.

North jumped

 

[gringo2011]

100% this.

We are in an era of the game where the top teams remain perennial contenders for multiple generations. Winning a single flag like the Dogs and Eagles is actually a failure. You need multiple flags to be considered a 'great' team.

Both have the best recruiters and footy department staff. It's not really a surprise that we were in an austerity mindset and wouldn't spend. Carlton filled up with old boys and Melbourne was probably similar to us.

Sydney had a legendary drafting guru and chased the Dogs guru as well. Geelong pioneered finding players in alternative pathways and traded in talent over the average amount. Both have long term planning and structural elements down pat along with stability that most others can only dream of and carried through a solid core of older talent that trained their new ones.

Hawks and Richmond have both tripped up and not able to replicate them. Dogs have done well to refresh around an elite half dozen or so and draft better than most. Melbourne are good drafters and the Pies are a wait and see on how they look in a few years when that older generation drops off.