Autopsy Hawks fall over against Tigers

[Alite]

I did not see a Hawthorn player who played badly. I thought they all did OK and a few were very good.
Yes there were mistakes, but not constant howlers from any player.

It was, as losses go, one I can accept.

We won the first 1/4 on all but the scoreboard. Bad kicking cost us a 5 goal vs 3 qtr time lead.

I am not sure if Clarko’s plan was to win in the air but McEvoy, Lewis, and Ceglar dominated that first quarter with their contested marks. Marks like those can break up a zone.

When McEvoy went down and then Lewis... we were done. Our plan B vs their plan A was never going to beat Richmond.

I thought we did OK.

Howe, who played with Box Hill, would have been handy as a shadow for Martin. Dusty often puts us to the sword... and he did again.

Richmond are very beatable ... with the current players available.

Timmy Almost is... IMO doing great as the 3rd tall. F@cken finally the Hawks have realised, he is not creative, not a standout talent, but if given a task he excels.

 

[thejockey]

Sorry to troll.. but watching as a nuetral... it was 13/2 frees at half time..i cant recall a side in front getting 2 frees for a half? They had 7 players under 14 games ... a very young side missing their guns , yet they won by 6 goals.

Not sure if your wanting a bite but anyway .......

Even at our best Richmond have always given us trouble ( last 5-6 years ) .
They have great depth , we currently don’t .
They are arguable the best performed side of the last 2 seasons and are choc full of confidence to cover injury and outs.
We aren’t playing with confidence and are a side transitioning, any out we get hurts us ( see Clarkos comments after Melbourne ) .

If I was you guys I would be worried Richmond can keep chalking wins with so many out , get most back and they will give you guys trouble . Don’t worry about that

 

[Wandering Hawk]

Hawks aren't at the bottom of the rebuild cycle yet, sadly. That's next year when we lose Burgoyne and Roughead, or arguably the 2021 season afterwards as we both run a young forward line and replace many of Puopolo Smith Henderson Frawley Stratton McEvoy Ceglar.

Fortunately we're doing great for a rebuild cycle, and might even finish next year above this year if we get midfield depth back. We however have not yet rebuilt our spine, and our midfield depth will again vanish once Henderson and Smith go.

Be content with our forward line blues to last 1-2 years and then start to mend. We're making great steady additions to the younger team every year. Gaining 3 players who can be part of a future flag per year is an astounding rate of gain. At the rate we're going we'll have a fully rebuilt squad in about 3 years.

Here's who have recently showed us they were future best 22 (and when they announced themselves):

old guard: Shiels, Breust, Gunston
2017 Hardwick Sicily TOM
2018 Worpel JOM Impey
2019 Scrimshaw Cousins Scully Lewis
(Wingard)

The jury remains out on many other younger players, so there's high hopes in a few potential further additions to this list over the next 1-2 years, eg TOB Moore Nash Glass etc, plus the unplayed kids, before we even recruit further.

Even without anyone prior, gain three per year (astounding success) and you've a squad in seven years from zero. We're not coming from zero. We're about three years off a full new team, 4-5 years off the depth for a dynasty, and we just keep hitting recruiting home runs every year.

In this game we just lost to the Tigers we had six players under 14 games, exhausted kids and walking wounded vets, their coach knows our tactics and structure from the inside, and we had two in-game injuries that closed off our rotations. They're the form side of the last three years. We were within a kick during the third qtr despite two on the bench and having not beaten them/their game plan for years.

 

[Alite]

Not sure if your wanting a bite but anyway .......

Even at our best Richmond have always given us trouble ( last 5-6 years ) .
They have great depth , we currently don’t .
They are arguable the best performed side of the last 2 seasons and are choc full of confidence to cover injury and outs.
We aren’t playing with confidence and are a side transitioning, any out we get hurts us ( see Clarkos comments after Melbourne ) .

If I was you guys I would be worried Richmond can keep chalking wins with so many out , get most back and they will give you guys trouble . Don’t worry about that

Dimma Hardwick, as an ex Hawthorn assistant coach, went to school on the Hawks game-plan and, after a few false starts, has our number in game style....

But I think we all saw the solution to the Dimma’s Chaos... = Contested Marks

 

[tige19]

He's had 26 and taken 8 marks. 4 contested. He was absolutely outstanding.

Around the ground he was great, got an absolute flogging in the ruck contests by Soldo.. and I mean who the hell is Soldo? Richmond are a terrible clearance team (last) and they flogged is in there, Cegs was part of that.

But as I said, around the ground he was elite, his contested marking brilliant but as his prime role as a ruckman he was pantsed.

 

[lickmerocks]

You don’t sign anywhere.


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I have the x Trail started and ready to drop Punky off and pick up Lachie.

Agree re struggling. Unfortunately, that's his personality.

Strikingly different to what we are used to in Hawthorn captains.

Yep that

Daniel Howe should be considered next week as one of the best for Box Hill today. He may not be the fastest going around conceded, but a big body that seems to know how to nullify opponents and provide a true contest.

No not Daniel Howe.

I did tell you all this 2 years ago and got shouted down on here.

Slow in body and in mind is not a good recipe for AFL.

 

[Wingnut19]

I have the x Trail started and ready to drop Punky off and pick up Lachie.



Yep that




No not Daniel Howe.

I did tell you all this 2 years ago and got shouted down on here.

Slow in body and in mind is not a good recipe for AFL.

Agree 100%. He’s too slow for VFL even. Don’t want him back.

 

[Alite]

Hawks aren't yet sadly at the bottom of the rebuild cycle yet. That's next year when we lose Burgoyne and Roughead, or arguably the 2021 season afterwards as we both run a young forward line and replace many of Puopolo Smith Henderson Frawley Stratton McEvoy Ceglar.

Fortunately we're doing great for a rebuild cycle, and might even finish next year above this year if we get midfield depth back. We however have not yet rebuilt our spine, and our midfield depth will again vanish once Henderson and Smith go.

Be content with our forward line blues to last 1-2 years and then start to mend. We're making great steady additions to the younger team every year. At the rate we're going we'll have a fully rebuilt squad in about 3 years.

Here's who have recently showed us they were future best 22 (and when they announced themselves):

2017 Hardwick Sicily TOM
2018 Worpel JOM Impey
2019 Scrimshaw Cousins Scully Lewis
(Wingard)

The jury remains out on many other younger players, so there's high hopes in lots of potential further additions over the next 1-2 years, eg TOB Moore Nash Glass etc, plus the unplayed kids, before we even recruit further.

Even without anyone prior, gain three per year (astounding success) and you've a squad in seven years from zero. We're not coming from zero. We're about three years off a full new team, 4-5 off the depth for a dynasty, and we just keep hitting recruiting home runs every year.

In this game we just lost to the Tigers we had six players under 14 games, exhausted kids and walking wounded vets, their coach knows our tactics and structure from the inside, and we had two in-game injuries that closed off our rotations. They're the form side of the last three years. We were within a kick during the third qtr despite two on the bench and having not beaten them/their game plan for years.

Wandering Hawk: you chose your name Well. The “ifs and but’s”, “possibles and maybes”, are all great stuff that Bigfooty lives on.

 

[Mrzohs]

Hawthorn fielded seven players aged 21 or younger, in Harry Morrison, James Worpel, Lewis, Conor Glass – a late inclusion for James Frawley (hamstring) – Jack Scrimshaw, Dylan Moore and James Cousins.
None of them have played 30 AFL games.

I think clarko is spot on Richmond polish, got the most of there chances.
To be expected for us we made errors with the young boys 5 of those 7 will be regulars next yr They will grow taller when Tom Mitchell back he a warrior amongst men.

There will be plenty of cash injection at the end of the yr if we spend wisely we will be fine.
Buy all reports brand was a rock down back clarko must not rate him maybe we could off got away playing brand and and sic floating the result would still be the same.

 

[tige19]

25% of Hawthorn players didn’t have a tackle, led by Ben Stratton... that stat is disgraceful, how on earth does a guy like Ricky Henderson get 30 touches as a mid and not lay a tackle? There’s no excuse.

 

[Alite]

Agree 100%. He’s too slow for VFL even. Don’t want him back.

I am Not sure who you guys are but... I see you are pushing an agenda that I think is likely outside footy.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

I have seen a number post praise for Ceglar’s game. I must be in the minority. Yes he took some nice marks around the ground but I thought he get pantsed in the middle and was continually stunned how easy a second rate ruckman gave their mids uncontested ball in the middle. I will have to watch the replay

Don't be to concerned mate your observation is pretty spot on, he played well around the ground but the centre bounce stuff was horrid. Until he looks at the ball for most of the bounce and not the oppo ruckman he will only be trying to break even in that part of the ground.

 

[Alite]

25% of Hawthorn players didn’t have a tackle, led by Ben Stratton... that stat is disgraceful, how on earth does a guy like Ricky Henderson get 30 touches as a mid and not lay a tackle? There’s no excuse.

Tige19: for anything to work one must have the positive, the negative, the unexpected and the amazing.
You live within this space. Loven your work

 

[Mrzohs]

25% of Hawthorn players didn’t have a tackle, led by Ben Stratton... that stat is disgraceful, how on earth does a guy like Ricky Henderson get 30 touches as a mid and not lay a tackle? There’s no excuse.

Spot on 2 weeks in a row for him. It's hard Richmond don't hold into the ball they give it up so quick .

We had alot of experince out there alot of money on the sidelines atm.

 

[Alite]

Don't be to concerned mate your observation is pretty spot on, he played well around the ground but the centre bounce stuff was horrid. Until he looks at the ball for most of the bounce and not the oppo ruckman he will only be trying to break even in that part of the ground.

I thought Cegs had a great game but you say he did not tap to advantage. I’ll go look. Given that Saldo is a reasonable ruckman but not good around the ground.

 

[MinerBoy]

Sorry to troll.. but watching as a nuetral... it was 13/2 frees at half time..i cant recall a side in front getting 2 frees for a half? They had 7 players under 14 games ... a very young side missing their guns , yet they won by 6 goals.

Yep we definitely got the rub for a change. Not that there was anything drastic that was game changing or any shocking calls, but it was an unusual discrepancy.

 

[B&GBlood]

Don’t think the captaincy has done Stratton any favors - honestly feels like he is on the way down this season..
It seems like a heavy burden to give players the captaincy in the twilight of their careers.. both Roughy and Stratts have struggled.. prob need to look to the future when choosing our next skipper.. maybe even time to admit that employing co-captains could have some merit...

Never, you only need one good leader, having two admits you do not think either is good enough by themselves. That is not inspirational for anyone.

 

[flinchfree]

I didn’t mention Gunston.

We are to blame for Gunstons form.

We decided in our wisdom to change a
Sharp shooter forward into a running machine who then lost his ability to execute the one thing that made him a threatening beast against every other side.

He now gets it 20 times a game but I would much prefer the 10 touches and 3 goals per game Gunston back please.

We only did that after he unfathomingly lost the ability to find the middle of the sticks, from any distance short or long, over a 12 month period. He was completely bereft of confidence and was starting to go completely missing in games.
Clarko tried him as a ruckrover from the back out and it worked well for a while.
He still has seemingly forgotten his forward craft and not even a dangerous mark or lead up forward.

It was on Gunno, not Clarko.

 

[B&GBlood]

Do agree with that, I reckon if we could get 4 on the bench even coming into the last quarter at possible worst we'd be 7 and 2. But why almost every week doesn't it happen? 9 weeks in, it's a pattern. It's an issue. Players are breaking down every game and players like Gunston who is unfit,but playing close 2 100% in the second half due 2 injuries becomes a witches hat because of it.

I don't mind the new game plan... very close to the three peat years with some tweaks. I can see where they are going with it.

The question is what we do now. Do we persist with unfit injured players or do we take the draft pick and play kids?

FFS players have broken down in some games, yesterday, Bigboy was hurt in a tackle and Lewis was concussed, no amount of conditioning, even by Russel, can protect you from either of those.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

I corrected that earlier Dolty meaning Stratton, as was a typo if you read it?

Meaning that a Captain based on form can still be dropped for poor form.

JOM should be Captain no doubt or perhaps Mitchell next year; but I still like Stratton without the burden of being a Captain, think will suit him better.

So you can pick up things around the ground better than the TV? Wow and you have such a vocabulary to show us your word skills. Dolt? It means stupid, I think right? Is that your real name?

Well I think the board would say who is the Dolt and who is not to say such absolute sh.. about Ceglar who has been nothing short of fantastic in the last two games he has played in.

How many high grade games you played Dolty? I played 215 and reckon I know a bit about the game so shut the fu.. up.

Not the best way to put a case forward. I played over 300, was competitive as feck but ordinary, how many games did Jeans and Haffey play, look we all know so much, so many ways to skin a cat on the footy ground but the "I know stuff about football" argument is useless, you me and many others on here have opinions and that's it.

 

[B&GBlood]

We are truly an average side. Richmond, with their injuries, are short of the best teams, maybe a top 6 side, and they had us covered with ease. Even before the injuries.

I also believe the Tigers are currently better, hower in the first quarter we were stretching them and had we kicked straight would have had a 2-3 goal lead at quarter time. The game plan yesterday was to use the three talls to get past the Richmond midfield defense, we did it repeatedly in the first quarter. When that advantage was lost I thought we still played well but were thwarted with smothers on kicks going inside 50 several times. They often scored after our mistakes, tidying up on the errors will help.
After going two men down after half time we had little chance of winning, we did however pull the score back to 4 points before fatigue got the better of us.
I though we played pretty well, took the game on and it might have been closer had we not lost both of the talls.

Just to note; We lost two midfielders vs Bullies, We lost two defenders vs St's and now two tall targets vs Tigers. Covering two holes in the same area is much harder.

 

[MadDawg]

Hawthorn fielded seven players aged 21 or younger, in Harry Morrison, James Worpel, Lewis, Conor Glass – a late inclusion for James Frawley (hamstring) – Jack Scrimshaw, Dylan Moore and James Cousins.
None of them have played 30 AFL games.

I believe Richmond had a similar amount of youth and inexperience going into the game.

But what Richmond had around their young players was a group of seniors players carrying the heavy load.

Our youth have been really pleasing and are doing more than they should this season. Our problem is our group of senior players in their prime who are not leading the way ATM.

 

[TylerDurden]

Around the ground he was great, got an absolute flogging in the ruck contests by Soldo.. and I mean who the hell is Soldo? Richmond are a terrible clearance team (last) and they flogged is in there, Cegs was part of that.

But as I said, around the ground he was elite, his contested marking brilliant but as his prime role as a ruckman he was pantsed.

Sure he lost the hit outs, but he had 15 contested possessions. Dusty had 17. You do the maths.

These were Dean Cox, Brodie Grundy type numbers. His previous best was 20 touches.

Was his best game for Hawthorn. Point blank. Which ever lens you wanna look through it.

 

[lickmerocks]

We only did that after he unfathomingly lost the ability to find the middle of the sticks, from any distance short or long, over a 12 month period. He was completely bereft of confidence and was starting to go completely missing in games.
Clarko tried him as a ruckrover from the back out and it worked well for a while.
He still has seemingly forgotten his forward craft and not even a dangerous mark or lead up forward.

It was on Gunno, not Clarko.

That’s not exactly the way I recall it.

One year he was a 50 goal kicker and the following pre season each article posted from the club was about gunstons running ability and we thought we could turn him into our version of a tall running midfielder that was the flavour of the month.

The only problem was while we experimented for this hybrid type of running mid/forward machine he went from 50 odd goals to about 15-20 goals the following year without much increase in his possessions each game.

I would like to see Gunston Sicily and Wingard play permanent forward each week and see if we can create some magic with these 3.... one can stand on heads and take marks (Sicily) one can lead up at the ball carrier (Gunners) and one can be X factor on the ground (Wingard)

 

[big_rig]

Can people please stop calling for Sicily forward? Such short memories round here - don't you remember, that's where he started! Clearly talented, but inconsistent and not putting it together. He moved back and became a weapon.