Free Agency Joe Daniher [RFA to Brisbane for 1st round compensation pick]

[DERO]

Do you want some inside information about his injury or do you just want to go on with an uninformed opinion ?
You can check out my history of posting little snippets on the Essendon board. I can tell you now that the reason Joe is so bad now was he did not give the whole picture to the medical staff. He did not tell them how sore he was pulling up and it was considered he was simply taking a bit of time to hit form again. Not sure how the staff grossly miss treated him if they did not have the full picture.
On top of that his brother retired because he could not get over chronic groin issues and Joe had a few minor patches of groin issues when he was at Calder.

I can say now that I am not a typical Essendon poster. I do not defend Hird and I think we pretty much got what we should have for bringing in Dank when even a small amount of background checking would have found he was run out of the NRL for his witch doctor practices. I felt sorry for the players as they only followed the advice they where given.

I wouldn't even bother arguing with them Ant. You know what happened and those outside can draw conclusions to suit whatever narrative they want to create but it does not change anything and it won't fix Joe's groins unfortunately.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Do you want some inside information about his injury or do you just want to go on with an uninformed opinion ?
You can check out my history of posting little snippets on the Essendon board. I can tell you now that the reason Joe is so bad now was he did not give the whole picture to the medical staff. He did not tell them how sore he was pulling up and it was considered he was simply taking a bit of time to hit form again. Not sure how the staff grossly miss treated him if they did not have the full picture.
On top of that his brother retired because he could not get over chronic groin issues and Joe had a few minor patches of groin issues when he was at Calder.

I can say now that I am not a typical Essendon poster. I do not defend Hird and I think we pretty much got what we should have for bringing in Dank when even a small amount of background checking would have found he was run out of the NRL for his witch doctor practices. I felt sorry for the players as they only followed the advice they where given.

I will finish with i do not think he will get back to anywhere near what he could have been and we should have pressed harder to trade him last year. I know from personal experience what OP is like as I have suffered it for 15 years or so now. In fact It would not shock me if he did not play again.

That is a very thoughtful and emotionally provoking post, one that is a credit to yourself and one I wish we could see more of on this forum.

I do think JD will play again , but will never live to his obvious massive talent and potential due to injury and factors you mentioned.

 

[FreeAgent1]

I wouldn't even bother arguing with them Ant. You know what happened and those outside can draw conclusions to suit whatever narrative they want to create but it does not change anything and it won't fix Joe's groins unfortunately.

I think this is one situation where no-one is really wrong. THe spectrum is literally" retire <<->>Coleman and either could be true in 2021.

If he gets on the park in 2020 and shows some flashes he is back in star/superstar value. If he does nothing he could be worth the same as patton.

I dont think anyone with a opinion in between is "wrong" as there are so many unknowns.

What i will point out is that Dons have always been uber aggressive and often leaking items to public during trading, with is literally the opposite to the swans who want zero media leaks and want to get trades done rather than trying to "win" every trade, which is the part i will particuarlly enjoy this trade period.

 

[ant555]

I appreciate that you have this opinion and am prepared to take you somewhat at face value on that. What I will say is that I think it is disingenuous to regard mine as uninformed, in fact I went into pretty in depth detail about how I arrived at my opinion; using media statements/opinions, medical quotes, common sense and timeline evidence.

For every inside info claim that proves to be correct there are probably 50 (or more) that are bogus on this website; don't take that as a personal jibe but more of a reality from my experience. Definitely not having a go at you as a poster or lumping you in with what I've described as the 'Essendon Kool Aid' drinkers like the types you identified around Essendon's recent history. Quite happy to be having a reasonable discussion... I will look at a couple of your posts when I have time later in the evening, any help where to start specifically rather than trawling through thousands of posts?

On the mismanagement side of things, be interested to hear your thoughts (apologies if you've covered it previously) on the medical team playing Joe with a 4-5 day turnaround after ANZAC day last year especially after a long absence from the game. Can you really let them off the hook on that one based on 'Joe telling him he was fine, hiding the pain from them?' I don't think that was best practice and have specifically spoken to two of my friends about Joe (a physio and a sports mechanics/science trained professional) that outrightly said you just wouldn't do that, why not give an extra 7 days of recovery regardless of what the player reports? I find that extremely hard to swallow, given Essendon should have top flight medical staff. This is coupled with extensive media criticism around him playing. Is everyone wrong and Essendon medical team were right?

I too have had OP (pretty mild by the sounds compared to you and probably Joe) and I used to struggle walking normally 2-3 days after playing underage football, let alone playing with 3 days of total recovery at best... A real sticking point for mine.

I know it is easy for me to say what I know . I have a few contacts inside the club. I post some of what I know. I rarely post outside the Essendon board so not many would have an idea of my posting history.

I am not saying the Essendon medical team is good or bad. Our head of fitness has been replaced since last year. What I am saying is it is hard to make a proper diagnosis if they do not have the complete picture.

You mention the Anzac back up. It is not as black and white as people seem to think. Yes it was a short back up after his second game back but he had just played one of his best games for the 2018 / 2019 period and did not pull up with major soreness after the game . He went into the Geelong game in the same condition that he did leading into the Collingwood game. In hindsight they could have not played him given what ended up happening. The simple fact is most players who end up losing large chunks of time due to OP often play on modified programs and have a mild degree of soreness but he was not presenting any signs of major soreness.
I see a Physio twice a month and have done for over 10 years. I have discussed OP with him at length and the fact is it is easy to look at it and say I would not have done it that way but there are a couple of points in that. Number 1 unless you are treating that patient you do not have all the information or history. Second treating OP is not a one case fits all thing. OP varies massively from case to case and treatment is very different between mild OP and more serious cases. Ask your physio how it would be treating a serious case if the patient was only telling him he had mild symptoms ?
Joe played Anzac day and presented no major issues after the game. He played really well and better than he had since the injury issues took hold. The fact he came back before "people" expected or it was reported is not the issue. He then played against Geelong and pulled up a bit sore and had a week off before again playing well against Fremantle . He then broke down again during the week and has not played again.
It is easy to look at it from the outside and end up with 1+1=3 but the complete picture is not there.

2018 was the crucial time when Joe thinking he was doing the right thing played the seven rounds and a good part of pre season with the injury and not telling the staff how bad it was.

I will throw James Stewart in. Missed all of last year with OP / groin as well. Has been on the same program as Joe. Right now ready to be selected. Mediacl team got him right although he did not try and play through it and not give the medical staff the full picture.

 

[Wild Bill]

Do you want some inside information about his injury or do you just want to go on with an uninformed opinion ?
You can check out my history of posting little snippets on the Essendon board. I can tell you now that the reason Joe is so bad now was he did not give the whole picture to the medical staff. He did not tell them how sore he was pulling up and it was considered he was simply taking a bit of time to hit form again. Not sure how the staff grossly miss treated him if they did not have the full picture.
On top of that his brother retired because he could not get over chronic groin issues and Joe had a few minor patches of groin issues when he was at Calder.

I can say now that I am not a typical Essendon poster. I do not defend Hird and I think we pretty much got what we should have for bringing in Dank when even a small amount of background checking would have found he was run out of the NRL for his witch doctor practices. I felt sorry for the players as they only followed the advice they where given.

I will finish with i do not think he will get back to anywhere near what he could have been and we should have pressed harder to trade him last year. I know from personal experience what OP is like as I have suffered it for 15 years or so now. In fact It would not shock me if he did not play again.

How do you know what he did and didn’t tell the medical staff?

 

[DERO]

How do you know what he did and didn’t tell the medical staff?

I can vouch for him on this one.

 

[TheKITC]

I am not saying the Essendon medical team is good or bad. Our head of fitness has been replaced since last year. What I am saying is it is hard to make a proper diagnosis if they do not have the complete picture.

Honestly, that the head of fitness has been replaced probably gives more credence to what I'm suggesting...

You mention the Anzac back up. It is not as black and white as people seem to think. Yes it was a short back up after his second game back but he had just played one of his best games for the 2018 / 2019 period and did not pull up with major soreness after the game . He went into the Geelong game in the same condition that he did leading into the Collingwood game. In hindsight they could have not played him given what ended up happening. The simple fact is most players who end up losing large chunks of time due to OP often play on modified programs and have a mild degree of soreness but he was not presenting any signs of major soreness.

You absolutely cannot know that he was in the 'same condition' as he was 4 or 5 days earlier whatever you protest your contacts are. It is also highly, highly unlikely that any athlete, competing in a game like ours, could be in the same condition on that short of a back up. It's just so unlikely, bordering on impossible and is why there is so much emphasis placed on recovery in the modern game and why clubs scream about quick back ups, which are usually 6 days. This is not even considering that Joe wasn't in prime athletic condition after suffering from a looong lay-off with OP issues and what I think was a calf issue?

I simply just cannot buy that someone with serious OP and other injuries should have played that game. Why take the risk? Again, no matter what your contacts are I will just never be able to swallow playing him that soon after his return game. Nothing I have read and nobody I have spoken to disagrees except Essendon people.

I see a Physio twice a month and have done for over 10 years. I have discussed OP with him at length and the fact is it is easy to look at it and say I would not have done it that way but there are a couple of points in that. Number 1 unless you are treating that patient you do not have all the information or history. Second treating OP is not a one case fits all thing. OP varies massively from case to case and treatment is very different between mild OP and more serious cases. Ask your physio how it would be treating a serious case if the patient was only telling him he had mild symptoms ?

I 100% agree that everyone is different, which is the same for most things in life, and so did both of the people I spoke with specifically about this. They concurred they are only making general comments and educated guesses based on their learnings. They both said that despite what the patient says, there are some decisions that medically need to be taken out of people's hands, specifically when someone is a professional athlete or derives their income from doing said activities involving the affected area. If the Essendon medicos want to lean on "Joe told us this" and "Joe reported that" to recuse themselves from blame then I think they are even more negligent than I already thought.

Joe played Anzac day and presented no major issues after the game. He played really well and better than he had since the injury issues took hold. The fact he came back before "people" expected or it was reported is not the issue. He then played against Geelong and pulled up a bit sore and had a week off before again playing well against Fremantle . He then broke down again during the week and has not played again.
It is easy to look at it from the outside and end up with 1+1=3 but the complete picture is not there.

OP is an overuse injury. I think it's pretty obvious (from a lamens perspective) that playing 3 AFL games within less than a two week period would seem an unacceptable risk for someone with that type of injury, let alone another injury too. You can dress it up however you'd like. Unfortunately, the proof is in the pudding and it was too much for Joe. History is not looking favourably on the medical decisions of Essendon on this and let's be perfectly honest, they didn't have great form before it either... and that is putting it extremely mildly.

I will throw James Stewart in. Missed all of last year with OP / groin as well. Has been on the same program as Joe. Right now ready to be selected. Mediacl team got him right although he did not try and play through it and not give the medical staff the full picture.

Second treating OP is not a one case fits all thing. OP varies massively from case to case and treatment is very different between mild OP and more serious cases.

I'm sorry and I'm not trying to have a go at you personally, but this is a huge contradiction, all within the same post.

You cannot defend the medical staff on one hand because "every case is different" then later point to the success of someone else who is "on the same program as Joe" and protest it as evidence that they haven't been medically negligent or mismanged Joe Daniher. Cannot have it both ways. You lost a lot of credibility here...

If I was being a cynic, I'd actually suggest that any success they may be having with Stewart could be a linked to them acknowledging and learning from mistakes that were made with Joe.

 

[DERO]

Honestly, that the head of fitness has been replaced probably gives more credence to what I'm suggesting...



You absolutely cannot know that he was in the 'same condition' as he was 4 or 5 days earlier whatever you protest your contacts are. It is also highly, highly unlikely that any athlete, competing in a game like ours, could be in the same condition on that short of a back up. It's just so unlikely, bordering on impossible and is why there is so much emphasis placed on recovery in the modern game and why clubs scream about quick back ups, which are usually 6 days. This is not even considering that Joe wasn't in prime athletic condition after suffering from a looong lay-off with OP issues and what I think was a calf issue?

I simply just cannot buy that someone with serious OP and other injuries should have played that game. Why take the risk? Again, no matter what your contacts are I will just never be able to swallow playing him that soon after his return game. Nothing I have read and nobody I have spoken to disagrees except Essendon people.



I 100% agree that everyone is different, which is the same for most things in life, and so did both of the people I spoke with specifically about this. They concurred they are only making general comments and educated guesses based on their learnings. They both said that despite what the patient says, there are some decisions that medically need to be taken out of people's hands, specifically when someone is a professional athlete or derives their income from doing said activities involving the affected area. If the Essendon medicos want to lean on "Joe told us this" and "Joe reported that" to recuse themselves from blame then I think they are even more negligent than I already thought.



OP is an overuse injury. I think it's pretty obvious (from a lamens perspective) that playing 3 AFL games within less than a two week period would seem an unacceptable risk for someone with that type of injury, let alone another injury too. You can dress it up however you'd like. Unfortunately, the proof is in the pudding and it was too much for Joe. History is not looking favourably on the medical decisions of Essendon on this and let's be perfectly honest, they didn't have great form before it either... and that is putting it extremely mildly.




I'm sorry and I'm not trying to have a go at you personally, but this is a huge contradiction, all within the same post.

You cannot defend the medical staff on one hand because "every case is different" then later point to the success of someone else who is "on the same program as Joe" and protest it as evidence that they haven't been medically negligent or mismanged Joe Daniher. Cannot have it both ways. You lost a lot of credibility here...

If I was being a cynic, I'd actually suggest that any success they may be having with Stewart could be a linked to them acknowledging and learning from mistakes that were made with Joe.

Speaking of contradictions. ^

 

[TheKITC]

Speaking of contradictions. ^

In what way is it a contradiction to acknowledge that everyone is/can be different from a treatment and medical standpoint as well as potentially flagiing that a group of people can learn from previous mistakes with injury treatments?

How do you think clinical trials work? How do physio's know to recommend a minimum time for certain grade hamstring injuries?

Look forward to your response.

 

[DERO]

In what way is it a contradiction to acknowledge that everyone is/can be different from a treatment and medical standpoint as well as potentially flagiing that a group of people can learn from previous mistakes with injury treatments?

How do you think clinical trials work? How do physio's know to recommend a minimum time for certain grade hamstring injuries?

Look forward to your response.

Nah, you are trolling.

I can’t be bothered with it.

 

[Wild Bill]

Speaking of contradictions. ^

I can vouch for him on this one.

 

[TheKITC]

Nah, you are trolling.

I can’t be bothered with it.

Translation: I don't wish to engage with you because if I can't debate you I will attempt to label you a troll.

Happy for anything I've posted to be dissected and discussed.

 

[DERO]

Translation: I don't wish to engage with you because if I can't debate you I will attempt to label you a troll.

Happy for anything I've posted to be dissected and discussed.

It is not up for debate as far as I am concerned as I can confirm that Ants is 100% spot on. Like Ants, I have some inside knowledge on this one.

Better to leave it there and move on I think.

 

[briztoon]

It is not up for debate as far as I am concerned as I can confirm that Ants is 100% spot on. Like Ants, I have some inside knowledge on this one.

Better to leave it there and move on I think.

Nope. Your post was a cop out, and if anyone is trolling, it is you in this discussion, as you flaked out on the discussion after jumping in.

I’m not on either side of the discussion, but it’s clear TheKITC has a reasonable knowledge of the topic (injury management, prevention and recovery, and the medical field in general).

Maybe it’s best you drop it, if you’re not willing to have a mature discussion.

 

[TheKITC]

It is not up for debate as far as I am concerned as I can confirm that Ants is 100% spot on. Like Ants, I have some inside knowledge on this one.

Better to leave it there and move on I think.

The whole "I have inside information, just believe me and don't ask questions" is pretty transparent. But move on we shall.

 

[Matthew Jelley]

I would think people with inside knowledge shouldn't really be sharing

 

[rusman]

For what it is worth, I have been on this forum for a long time and Ant555 is a very trusted long time poster.

If you want a trusted poster look no further.

If you don't believe it your entitled to your opinion also.

 

[briztoon]

The whole "I have inside information, just believe me and don't ask questions" is pretty transparent. But move on we shall.

You never know around here.

I used to work with Tom Rockliff’s partner, before he left for Port.

When we first met at work, I told her I was on BigFooty, just so she knew to be careful what she shared.

We had a lot of general discussions, but I never asked anything personal.

She would share the occasional injury update.

So you never know if people really are in the know, or full of b.s.

 

[eth-dog]

I would think people with inside knowledge shouldn't really be sharing

There are certain things clubs don't mind being shared.

 

[DERO]

The whole "I have inside information, just believe me and don't ask questions" is pretty transparent. But move on we shall.

Well, clearly not.

The difference here is I know I am right and you are arguing something that I know to be wrong.

Let’s just say I know Joe’s Dad well enough to have a beer with him after Joe’s 100th game which also happened to be his last before his first lay off due to OP.

He was sore and tried to play through because he thought he could still help the team.

Players commonly play sore and plenty of players will will try to hide injuries or downplay them in order to stay in the side, especially when the side is going well or finals are looming. Daniher is hardly Robinson Crusoe there.

You can say whatever you like about the medical department at Essendon because we have had some shocking management issues over the years but in this instance you can’t really blame the club. It is just really unfortunate as Joe thought he was doing the right thing by trying to play through the pain.

 

[Wild Bill]

I would think people with inside knowledge shouldn't really be sharing

They don’t.

 

[Wild Bill]

There are certain things clubs don't mind being shared.

Conversations between the medical team and players? I would be amazed if every club doesn’t muzzle their medical staff.

 

[Lore]

I can personally vouch for the veracity of both ant555 and Dero's connections, for whatever that is worth.

 

[LiddleCharlie]

I can personally vouch for the veracity of both ant555 and Dero's connections, for whatever that is worth.

There is no evidence that either have any connections, so lets just leave it at that.

 

[TheKITC]

Well, clearly not.

The difference here is I know I am right and you are arguing something that I know to be wrong.

Let’s just say I know Joe’s Dad well enough to have a beer with him after Joe’s 100th game which also happened to be his last before his first lay off due to OP.

He was sore and tried to play through because he thought he could still help the team.

Players commonly play sore and plenty of players will will try to hide injuries or downplay them in order to stay in the side, especially when the side is going well or finals are looming. Daniher is hardly Robinson Crusoe there.

You can say whatever you like about the medical department at Essendon because we have had some shocking management issues over the years but in this instance you can’t really blame the club. It is just really unfortunate as Joe thought he was doing the right thing by trying to play through the pain.

That is a great story and all Dero, but it totally avoids one of, if not the majority of what I'm saying re. the medical mistreatment of Joe by Essendon. That is the quick back up from ANZAC day and playing 3 games in two weeks after his history and layoff, was negligent in my (and others) opinion. No amount of downplaying and lying from Joe about his condition should have been enough to get him passed from the medical team to play those games, which just so happen to be the last games he played...

I will say whatever I like about the medical department and think I have built and espoused reasonable evidence to prove my points. All I'm hearing back in return is "trust me, that's not went down, I have inside sources" and then this story from you about how Joe lied to he medical team and you know his old man. That's dandy and all, but it does nothing or very little to dispel what I'm saying. I say to that I have already covered that and if they are letting Joe play on his own medical opinion of himself, they are extremely negligent and it's no wonder some of them have been replaced.

Any chance you could address the 3 games in two weeks from a chronically injured Daniher part or will we just get more inside info tid bits that just so happen to always let the club off the hook, or at least attempt to?