Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[terrybull]

In December 2008, at the instigation of the then Fitzroy (University) Reds president Craig Little, the University Reds Football Club (known as the 'Fitzroy' Reds from 1997) transferred all its assets to the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883).

The University (Fitzroy) Reds terminated its membership of the VAFA and was wound up as a incorporated company and football club.

By special dispensation from the VAFA, the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883) then replaced the Fitzroy [University] Reds in D-Grade [Premier D] VAFA for the 2009 season.

Dyson Hore-Lacy, chairman of Fitzroy in the AFL in 1996, automatically became chairman of the Club in the VAFA.

I am a shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club. I was in 1996 and I am in 2023. The club that used to hold an AFL licence now exists in the VAFA. The Fitzroy website - quite rightly - acknowledges the history of the University / Fitzroy Reds formed in 1955, including it history. This is easy to do as the Fitzroy Football Club and the University / Fitzroy Reds never played each other on the field.

I Know this, and it says it on the Wikipedia.

But you must agree it’s confusing what the official VAFA page writes about the club? And I also surprised me that fans shouted out Reds not Lions.

Other confusing things is that the administration got out of the merger in 1998 to reform Fitzroy. Was it a true merger 1996=1997?

Unless one is educated here then the most common belief by looking at the AFL and Brisbane home pages is that Fitzroy moved north to merge with Brisbane. And in the end is what is wrong with that? Sometimes ignorance is truly bliss.

I think the North merger would have failed because of North rich history. And in the end they probably would dissolve Fitzroy to a side note like West Melbourne and Essendon Association before them. They were only in it for the money.

Brisbane Bears though had a very short and mostly unsuccessful history. Fitzroy strengthened their brand and history and I believe they will never take this away… only strengthen it.

I would say with the merger it killed of the Bears brand more than the Fitzroy brand. The heart, soul and history of Fitzroy in the end engulfed the young Bears and who knows - if in 100 years from now there is a Trivial Pursuit question that asks Who were the Brisbane Bears? Hopefully the answer be - a side created by the AFL to warm up the Brisbane market for the move of Fitzroy there in 1997.

History has always been re-written, for better or for worse.

 

[Papa G]

Was never going to happen. AFL didn't have the power. All the AFL could do is remove North's licence. It's tedious and tiresome having to explain this to you over and over again when you keep coming out with more of this boring and tedious tripe.

Lol. The irony.

 

[Roylion]

I Know this, and it says it on the Wikipedia.

But you must agree it’s confusing what the official VAFA page writes about the club? And I also surprised me that fans shouted out Reds not Lions.

Fitzroy FC in the VAFA are not the Lions. The Fitzroy lion emblem is a trademark of the AFL. Fitzroy wear predominately their red Fitzroy jumper and the 'Fitzroy Reds' are part of the club, so many use 'Reds" when barracking. Bit like the Carlton Blues.

Other confusing things is that the administration got out of the merger in 1998 to reform Fitzroy. Was it a true merger 1996=1997?

Well...no. Fitzroy FC still exists in its own right. Control of the club was returned to the directors who are elected by the shareholders. The shareholders voted to continue the club.

Unless one is educated here then the most common belief by looking at the AFL and Brisbane home pages is that Fitzroy moved north to merge with Brisbane.

They didn't. Brisbane effectively rebranded. Fitzroy and Brisbane went to court against each other in 2010.

And in the end is wrong with that?

Brisbane are certainly the club that looks most like Fitzroy and they certainly preserve Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history in the AFL competition. I've got no problem with that. Indeed that's why I'm a member of the Brisbane Lions and have been since 1997.

I think the North merger would have failed because of North rich history. And in the end they probably would dissolve Fitzroy to a side note like West Melbourne and Essendon Association before them. They were only in it for the money.

Yes...that's very possible. But had it not been a relatively equal merger with a fair bit of the Fitzroy identity in the club, the Fitzroy people may have voted with their feet and walked away. That would have largely defeated one of the main aims of seeking a merger in the first place. Increasing the supporter base of both clubs in a new entity.

Brisbane Bears though had a very short and mostly unsuccessful history. Fitzroy strengthened their brand and history and I believe they will never take this away… only strengthen it.

It's great that there is some sort of Fitzroy identity in the AFL still. I don't see why one can't support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL and the Fitzroy FC in the VAFA. I'm a member of both. They don't play each other.

I would say with the merger it killed of the Bears brand more than the Fitzroy brand. The heart, soul and history of Fitzroy in the end engulfed the young Bears and who knows - if in 100 years from now there is a Trivial Pursuit question that asks Who were the Brisbane Bears? Hopefully the answer be - a side created by the AFL to warm up the Brisbane market for the move of Fitzroy there in 1997.

Maybe. Hopefully Fitzroy FC still exists playing at the Brunswick Street Oval and representing the suburb of Fitzroy in Australian Rules Football, a role which it was created to do when it was formed in 1883. Fitzroy FC is 140 years old in September.

History has always been re-written, for better or for worse.

Agree.

 

[Roylion]

Lol. The irony.

It's pretty clear from the title of this thread what the content will be about. Don't click on it if you don't want to read it.

 

[peetoo]

Is that the reason they moved from the Brunswick Street Oval in the 1960's? The suburb was too 'cool'?

Fitzroy settled into the Junction Oval very well.

Of course you know the history better than I. I only remember the white anting by AFL.

 

[terrybull]

Fitzroy FC in the VAFA are not the Lions. The Fitzroy lion emblem is a trademark of the AFL. Fitzroy wear predominately their red Fitzroy jumper and the 'Fitzroy Reds' are part of the club, so many use 'Reds" when barracking. Bit like the Carlton Blues.


Well...no. Fitzroy FC still exists in its own right. Control of the club was returned to the directors who are elected by the shareholders. The shareholders voted to continue the club.


They didn't. Brisbane effectively rebranded.



Brisbane are certainly the club that looks most like Fitzroy and they certainly preserve Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history in the AFL competition. I've got no problem with that. Indeed that's why I'm a member and have been since 1997.


Yes...that's very possible. But had it not been a relatively equal merger with a fair bit of the Fitzroy identity in the club, the Fitzroy people may have voted with their feet and walked away. That would have largely defeated one of the main aims of seeking a merger in the first place. Increasing the supporter base of both clubs in a new entity.


It's great that there is some sort of Fitzroy identity in the AFL still. I don't see why one can't support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL and the Fitzroy FC in the VAFA. They don't play each other.



Maybe. Hopefully Fitzroy FC still exists playing at the Brunswick Street Oval and representing the suburb of Fitzroy in Australian Rules Football, a role which it was created to do when it was formed in 1883. Fitzroy FC is 140 years old in September.


Agree.

I know all this what you are saying, but I only heard most of it here from you and I trust it to be true.

But as I said before the only things I could find was on my earlier thread. It seems the AFL and Brisbane are dead set it was a true merger and a new team created from Bears and Fitzroy.

What I am asking is why Fitzroy has not demanded the VAFA to change its facts about the club?

For me it’s more important that Fitzroy is kept alive in the AFL than playing in Fitzroy. I never lived in Richmond and don’t care where they play.

The name is important though and I wished the club was called Brisbane-Fitzroy.

Did you support Fitzroy Reds or earlier when they were University Reds?

And how did the Reds members react of their 54 year club just being dissolved? On the Fitzroy homepage it says they merged.

If it’s a merged club then I can understand their supporters shouting Reds. I think if I was at the game then I shout out Lions or ‘Roy’s. But Reds sounds weird for Fitzroy… rather Maroons.

 

[Roylion]

But as I said before the only things I could find was on my earlier thread. It seems the AFL and Brisbane are dead set it was a true merger and a new team created from Bears and Fitzroy.

Yet the AFL includes the Brisbane Bears records from 1987-1996 in their official Brisbane Lions records.

Just to demonstrate that Fitzroy still exists and that it is legally separate from the Brisbane Lions (formerly the Brisbane Bears). From ASIC.

Name:	FITZROY FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ACN:	005 881 201
ABN:	20 005 881 201 (External Link)
Previous state number:	C0188042A
Previous state of registration:	Victoria
Registration date:	9/07/1981
Next review date:	9/07/2023
Status:	Registered
Type:	Australian Public Company, Limited By Shares & Guarantee

Name:	BRISBANE BEARS-FITZROY FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ACN:	054 263 473
ABN:	43 054 263 473 (External Link)
Registration date:	16/12/1991
Next review date:	16/12/2023
Former name(s):	BRISBANE BEARS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED, NEW BEARS LIMITED
Status:	Registered
Type:	Australian Public Company, Limited By Guarantee

What I am asking is why Fitzroy has not demanded the VAFA to change its facts about the club?

I guess because the Fitzroy University Reds were in the VAFA from 1955.

The Fitzroy Football Club website makes it clear that the club was established in 1883

Fitzroy Football Club | About

www.fitzroyfc.com.au

Note that the honourboard on the Fitzroy website goes back to 2009 (when Fitzroy FC entered the VAFA)

Did you support Fitzroy Reds or earlier when they were University Reds?

No. I took an interest in the Fitzroy Reds when Fitzroy Football Club sponsored them from about 2001-2008.

And how did the Reds members react of their 54 year club just being dissolved? On the Fitzroy homepage it says they merged.

I gave the legal situation. The Fitzroy Reds basically continued on as part of the Fitzroy Football Club. Same home ground, same uniform, same players. The Fitzroy Board was altered to include Fitzroy Reds board members.

If it’s a merged club then I can understand their supporters shouting Reds. I think if I was at the game then I shout out Lions or ‘Roy’s. But Reds sounds weird for Fitzroy… rather Maroons.

Many do shout out Roys and Lions. No one really cares if they do. I personally use Roys.

 

[maskmcgee]

It's absolutely laughable what Fitzroy were folded over. Fitzroy had 1.5M dollars of debt. How much did the AFL give to St. Kilda last year? How much do the TV rights pay per game played?

 

[Bjo187]

It's absolutely laughable what Fitzroy were folded over. Fitzroy had 1.5M dollars of debt. How much did the AFL give to St. Kilda last year? How much do the TV rights pay per game played?

Dunno if you've heard of inflation, but I somewhat agree, it was clear they wanted them gone as a sole entity.

 

[Papa G]

Fitzroy were just unlucky. They missed out on the Demetriou/Maguire inspired government funded gravy train.

 

[terrybull]

This thread makes me depressed. Should stop reading it.

The 1983 QF still makes me angry and can’t watch it. 1982 I can live with and watch.

 

[FitzroyPete]

When Fitzroy won their 1922 flag, it made them the most successful club in the competition until Collingwood overtook them in 1929.

I think Fitzroy were Collingwoods original rivals before Carlton as well. Maybe any Collingwood/Fitzroy historians on here can elaborate further on it.

IrishBlueBagger, you're spot on about the Fitzroy-Collingwood rivalry being fierce in the VFL's early days, with the animosity stemming from the old VFA.
This is an excerpt from a description of the 1905 VFL Grand Final in Fitzroy's Fabulous Century (published in 2020).
"The Herald’s evocative description portrayed a carnival atmosphere surrounding the game, suggesting the two clubs had a friendly rivalry. But the Maroons and Magpies were anything but friendly. Richard Stremski, author of Kill for Collingwood, wrote: 'For the first 15 years of Collingwood’s existence, Fitzroy was the only foe that mattered. Newspaper descriptions of Collingwood-Fitzroy matches from 1892 to 1906 commonly emphasised the unduly rough play and heated suburban rivalry.' This Football Century said the bitterness between the pair was more prevalent among supporters than footballers, with the Maroons’ players frequently pelted with bitumen after games at Victoria Park."

 

[peetoo]

Fitzroy were just unlucky. They missed out on the Demetriou/Maguire inspired government funded gravy train.

Would it be correct to say if Nauru didn’t get into financial problems themselves, they wouldn’t have called in the Fitzroy fc debt, and they would have had more self determination, maybe lasted till the Demetriou era?

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

Fitzroy won its last premiership 88 years ago and haven't existed for 25, but they still have more premierships than North, St kilda and Footscray combined.

 

[Toump Ass]

Fitzroy won its last premiership 88 years ago and haven't existed for 25, but they still have more premierships than North, St kilda and Footscray combined.

Yeah I'd rather have a club to barrack for personally.

 

[Roylion]

Would it be correct to say if Nauru didn’t get into financial problems themselves, they wouldn’t have called in the Fitzroy fc debt,

No. Not quite correct. Fitzroy's loan wasn't due to be repaid until 2001.

and they would have had more self determination, maybe lasted till the Demetriou era?

The appointment of the administrator was crucial certainly. But the Fitzroy board was set on merging with the Kangaroos.

 

[morsie]

Roylion
Clarify one thing for me, I do not believe that Fitzroy had shareholders. It was formerly a company limited by guarantee and shares. That option was removed from company legislation and Fitzroy resolved according to my increasingly faulty memory to become a company limited by guarantee controlled by its members of various classes.
Or am I wrong?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Melbourne were kind of facing a Fitzroy like scenario in 2013, but then the AFL launched a rescue package. A new president and CEO was appointed, and the AFL even parachuted Paul Roos in as coach as well.

Contrast the treatment afforded to the Demons to that of the Lions. They were pretty much told by the AFL to merge or die. Fitzroy could have been saved if the will and appetite was there imo.

I agree. The white-anting of Fitzroy over a number of years was a disgrace. Fair enough if they couldn't find a way to survive but the AFL effectively ensured they couldn't find a way to survive. In hindsight they probably should have relocated to Brisbane in 87 like the Swans did in 82 but they had a couple of decent seasons in the 80s so probably thought it was worth persevering to see if they could turn it around.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

think the only melbourne based clubs to not face an existential crisis in roughly the same period as fitzroy did were essendon, collingwood and carlton.

fitzroy just ended up being the unlucky one to be in the doldrums as the afl said port was coming in and a license was being revoked to make room for them

the appetite might be there again for the situation to happen again if this tasmanian team gets approved.

Not true, Collingwood was going through their own tough times in the 80s (mainly due to the trade war with Richmond) and again in the late 90s I think. They were even considering relocating to Brisbane in early 80s and looked at potential merger options though probably not all that seriously. Their board was looking at selling a home game to Melbourne in 1984 I think (according to the Kick to Kick podcast) but the decision was vetoed by the Match committee.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The first team Carlton played in the VFL was the Lions. Our first grand final appearance was against them, and we beat them to win our first VFL premiership as well.

Then you had David Parkin, Robert Walls and Rod Austin coaching there in the 80's. I suppose Fitzroys problems started, when they had to leave the Brunswick Street Oval their original home ground.

Yes but compare that to Hawthorn who began an unprecedented period of success after leaving Glenferrie. Onfield success papers over anything in sport. Imagine if the Lions had defeated the Hawks in the 83 QF (lost by 4pts) and had gone on to win the flag?

By the time 96 came around they were basically a walking corpse but only a couple of years earlier in 93 were pushing for finals. The mass exodus of players including Blakey, Pert, Osborne, Roos et al crippled them.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Sad but there are too many 1930s suburban footy clubs in the national comp.

Who? How many 1930s suburban footy clubs have 50k or 60k members?

 

[Roylion]

Roylion
Clarify one thing for me, I do not believe that Fitzroy had shareholders. It was formerly a company limited by guarantee and shares.

It still is.

From ASIC.

Name:	FITZROY FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ACN:	005 881 201
ABN:	20 005 881 201 (External Link)
Previous state number:	C0188042A
Previous state of registration:	Victoria
Registration date:	9/07/1981
Next review date:	9/07/2023
Status:	Registered
Type:	Australian Public Company, Limited By Shares & Guarantee
Locality of registered office:	MORDIALLOC VIC 3195
Regulator:	Australian Securities & Investments Commission

That option was removed from company legislation and Fitzroy resolved according to my increasingly faulty memory to become a company limited by guarantee controlled by its members of various classes.

The Brisbane Lions are a company limited by guarantee.

Name:	BRISBANE BEARS-FITZROY FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ACN:	054 263 473
ABN:	43 054 263 473 (External Link)
Registration date:	16/12/1991
Next review date:	16/12/2023
Former name(s):	BRISBANE BEARS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED, NEW BEARS LIMITED
Status:	Registered
Type:	Australian Public Company, Limited By Guarantee
Locality of registered office:	SPRINGFIELD CENTRAL QLD 4300
Regulator:	Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Or am I wrong?

See above.

A company limited by shares is a company in which the liability of its members is limited to the amount (if any) unpaid on the shares held by them. These companies provide shareholders with limited liability. The directors of a company limited by shares are not liable for the debts of the company. The limited liability of these companies means that the personal assets of members are not at risk when they invest in the company. If the company experiences financial difficulties, its debts do not typically become the debts of the shareholders. All companies limited by shares, whether proprietary or public, must include the term ‘limited’ in their name to alert potential creditors that the company has limited liability.

https://www.afr.com/companies/revived-fitzroy-finds-game-has-moved-on-19980209-kb3cz

 

[Shane Heard]

Melbourne were kind of facing a Fitzroy like scenario in 2013, but then the AFL launched a rescue package. A new president and CEO was appointed, and the AFL even parachuted Paul Roos in as coach as well.

Contrast the treatment afforded to the Demons to that of the Lions. They were pretty much told by the AFL to merge or die. Fitzroy could have been saved if the will and appetite wasthere imo.

There was no way in hell MFC were ever going to be left to die.

Foundation club that started the game and the league.

Plus they do and always have had a big following.

The demise of FFC is a sad and sorry story. But they were a victim of the times and the pathetic financial state of the League itself.

To this day it’s all very unsavoury and a total debacle to look back on.

Just wanna say that after 20 odd years on this forum, I’ve always appreciated and admired the effort and love of the club that Roylion and other FFC supporters have put in with their posts. They are there every time Fitzroy are mentioned.

I feel for you guys and your loss and as a fellow “ historian “ and lover of the game itself, I will always remember FFC and it’s history.

But that’s because I’m a kid of the 70s and 80s and FFC were part of my childhood footy experience.

Anyone born after 1985 wouldn’t give a s**t about Fitzroy..and that’s fair enough.

But Fitzroy are a part of the history of the game and many many fine players will forever be immortal because of their superb careers donning the Fitzroy jumper.

 

[Bjo187]

All the struggling Vic clubs should have been relocated to places like Sydney, Brisbane, Tassie, Canberra. Then we'd have had strong clubs in other states and kept the history of those clubs along with it.

 

[Shane Heard]

All the struggling Vic clubs should have been relocated to places like Sydney, Brisbane, Tassie, Canberra. Then we'd have had strong clubs in other states and kept the history of those clubs along with it.

Well they could never really seriously consider relocating MFC. Their entire existence is linked to the MCG and the MCC.

Luckily..it only took 60 secs of a reality dose from Don Scott to squash the idea of HFC merging with the Dees.

The “struggling” clubs have always been North, Footscray and Saints.

I’m talking off field stuff.

But all three (with the assistance of the AFL commission) have survived and thrived and have built a foundation of strength to fortify themselves from lack of premierships.

If any of those 3 had of moved to another state they would’ve perished into oblivion.

HFC survived because they have a huge fan base and strong coterie groups who pumped money into the club…and along with a robust and effective management support after the MFC merger situation.

Their own supporters on mass saved the club from extinction …basically

Recent flags galore helped the cause.