Autopsy Round 16, 2022: Giants drown the Hawks

[Strapping Young Lad]

For myself personally the last two weeks have been very stark viewing.

Mostly because it has become very clear that our senior core of players are basically shot (Gunston, Chad, Shiels, JOM, etc) and yet I watch teams like the Pies, Tiges, Geelong etc and their senior players (who are generally older than ours) are leading their teams to another finals tilt.

And if our senior players are shot then we need to rely on our 23 to 28 year old contingent but thanks to Clarko we don't actually have any (apart from Sicily)!

So we are down to a situation were we are relying on rookies and players in their early 20s to lead the club. And that is a scenario filled with all kinds of risk.

This is why all those trades to get Scully, Patton, Vickery, etc were so disastrous. Sure they didn't cost much in terms of trade capital but they took up a spot on the list that could have been used to develop a rookie/late season pick who would have been coming into their prime about now.

I’m prepared to cut Gunston some slack on account of the conditions and that being his first game back, but I think time has caught up with him.
JOM had more clearances than anyone on the ground, but I would agree that we have a few players who are clearly on their way out.

I look back to the first and last quarter against the Dogs, the first half against the Dockers, the 3rd quarter against the Pies and I think that this game of inches is being lost in other periods above the shoulders and almost nowhere else.
Of course, we’d love some more class mids and another Mitch Lewis, but for all the losses over the last month we’ve also had periods within games where we’re lauding it over much more fancied sides, even with some of our better talents not yet out there(Ward, DGB, Day has missed games too in the last month).

We played the conditions ok yesterday, and while we might say players were not in front, or they positioned themselves on the wrong side of the contest, we absolutely had the better of the Giants for large parts of that game but just couldn’t score.

I’m not taking a great deal out of the loss other than to recognize that we’ve got some work to do and some gaps to fill, but I thought that before the first bounce too.

 

[TylerDurden]

Gunner missed 3 or 4 weeks? Was always going to be slightly off the pace.
Had to take that chest mark mind you.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I’m prepared to cut Gunston some slack on account of the conditions and that being his first game back, but I think time has caught up with him.
JOM had more clearances than anyone on the ground, but I would agree that we have a few players who are clearly on their way out.

I look back to the first and last quarter against the Dogs, the first half against the Dockers, the 3rd quarter against the Pies and I think that this game of inches is being lost in other periods above the shoulders and almost nowhere else.
Of course, we’d love some more class mids and another Mitch Lewis, but for all the losses over the last month we’ve also had periods within games where we’re lauding it over much more fancied sides, even with some of our better talents not yet out there(Ward, DGB, Day has missed games too in the last month).

We played the conditions ok yesterday, and while we might say players were not in front, or they positioned themselves on the wrong side of the contest, we absolutely had the better of the Giants for large parts of that game but just couldn’t score.

I’m not taking a great deal out of the loss other than to recognize that we’ve got some work to do and some gaps to fill, but I thought that before the first bounce too.

I agree our effort has generally been good this season and I think Mitchell is coaching well with a good gameplan.

But our list profile is absolutely dire. We are going to need to nail just about every one of our upcoming picks in the next three drafts and thats a low probability outcome.

I don't envy Sam's role in the next few years, he really doesn't have a lot to work with at all in the short to medium term.

I think we are only now realising how much hurt that top up policy from Clarko caused.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Gunner missed 3 or 4 weeks? Was always going to be slightly off the pace.
Had to take that chest mark mind you.

Not so much the dropped mark for me (although that was painful) but he looked so proppy out there and couldn't even give a semblance of putting in any forward pressure.

Such a shame as he is such a gifted and smart player but back injuries are an absolute b...h to come back from.

 

[TassieGrown]

Gunner missed 3 or 4 weeks? Was always going to be slightly off the pace.
Had to take that chest mark mind you.

And was limping around like my grandfather, should not have played was not fit

 

[Fleabane]

I'm not all that disappointed. We're rebuilding, they are more experienced, have a bit more class, more used to playing those sorts of conditions. We lost by 22 points, not 10 goals. Could have been closer if we'd kicked straight or not turned the ball over so easily.

Our taller forwards weren't great (Mitch Lewis' efforts noted) but I also wondered about aspects of our defensive structure. Given the horrendous conditions and how many goals they were getting from turnovers, seems like we really needed a goal keeper. Too often we lost the ball in our forward half through turnovers and then after a skidding blurter or two it became a race which we were often not in a position to win.

 

[Fleabane]

I agree our effort has generally been good this season and I think Mitchell is coaching well with a good gameplan.

But our list profile is absolutely dire. We are going to need to nail just about every one of our upcoming picks in the next three drafts and thats a low probability outcome.

I don't envy Sam's role in the next few years, he really doesn't have a lot to work with at all in the short to medium term.

I think we are only now realising how much hurt that top up policy from Clarko caused.

Felt like we were treading water for the last few years (no punning reference to yesterday intended!). So relieved we've made the shift to a different mindset.

 

[hebog]

I agree our effort has generally been good this season and I think Mitchell is coaching well with a good gameplan.

But our list profile is absolutely dire. We are going to need to nail just about every one of our upcoming picks in the next three drafts and thats a low probability outcome.

I don't envy Sam's role in the next few years, he really doesn't have a lot to work with at all in the short to medium term.

I think we are only now realising how much hurt that top up policy from Clarko caused.

Yet Geelong have been able to do it.

 

[KermitJagger]

Yet Geelong have been able to do it.

Guaranteed wins at a ground with a comfortable advantage and a relatively steady midfield.

Also, remains to be seen where the Hawks would have been in 2019 if Mitchell hadn't broken his leg and Chad stayed fit. Sliding doors.

The topping up was never the wrong choice when we did it, it only looks that way now with the benefit of hindsight. Funny how no one looks back at clubs that have been s**t for 10 years to decide that the draft strategy was a failure, they'll just wait for them to finally nail a few picks and then talk about how it's the only way to build a premiership list a'la Melbourne.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

With the list they have, GWS should be 4th, not 14th. Hawthorn is where it should be at this stage of their development.

Maybe not 4th but should be knocking on the door of the 8 at least. There a better side than us in crap conditions or normal conditions and it played out that way.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Yet Geelong have been able to do it.

It's helped they managed to get Dangerfield and Cameron in particular who have kept them relevant. Cameron is just about their most important player along with Stewart. It's not Hawkins anymore. They will be thereabouts even with a slight drop off from the other veterans the next year or two because of the impact he has for them. When he has quiet games they lose. It's not a coincidence.

 

[Baz_hawk]

MacDonald shows enough to make me think he's gonna be an absolute gun in a couple of years. Makes good decisions, has a good step and awareness. A bit of size and fitness and he'll be one of our best.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Yet Geelong have been able to do it.

Geelong did the tread water top-up better than we did. Where we traded hard for O'Meara they did it for Dangerfield. They had Hawkins throughout - we had a battling Roughy and then not much else in terms of tall forwards.

Geelong's age profile now is horrendous though. They have 12 players aged 30 or over. This year will basically be their last shot and if they don't make it work the edge of the cliff could look ugly even with Cameron there.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I agree our effort has generally been good this season and I think Mitchell is coaching well with a good gameplan.

But our list profile is absolutely dire. We are going to need to nail just about every one of our upcoming picks in the next three drafts and thats a low probability outcome.

I don’t see it that way at all. Look at what we’ve done this year in patches.

Such a young side, but still taking sides apart for periods of games.

The idea that we’re so far off flies in the face of what we’ve seen in games against the Lions, Blues, Cats, Dockers and Pies.

If you do a deep dive into comparative stats of all clubs the midfield is our clear issue. Fix that up and we’re going to win more games because our forward and defensive ends are trending in the right direction already.

 

[Denver Day Lewis]

It's helped they managed to get Dangerfield and Cameron in particular who have kept them relevant. Cameron is just about their most important player along with Stewart. It's not Hawkins anymore. They will be thereabouts even with a slight drop off from the other veterans the next year or two because of the impact he has for them. When he has quiet games they lose. It's not a coincidence.

This. They underpaid (effectively) for players who desperately wanted to get home.

We overpaid for players who haven't reached their previous highs, and we did it multiple times.

But the mental aspect shouldn't be overlooked.

Our senior players and experienced recruits have underperformed under two coaches now. When you've played 100+ games you really need to looking to yourself for self-improvement and motivation. As many have said, none of our senior players are stand out leaders, except McEvoy, who has been sorely missed.

 

[Jables]

There's some copium among the Hawthorn board with Clarko somehow having ****ed up our list and the new youth focused direction is all it takes to get it right, when guys like Mitchell and O'Meara were less than 25 when we traded for them, Wingard was 24-25. Ricky Henderson

31

Ricky Henderson

Age

35

Ht

188cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.4

5star

K

11.2

4star

HB

7.2

4star

M

5.7

5star

T

2.0

4star

CL

1.1

3star

D

15.0

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.1

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.6

3star

CL

1.3

4star

D

11.0

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.2

3star

CL

0.8

3star

didn't set us back years, this isn't a realistic approach to the situation, the talent we got was just not good enough to replace an all-time great Hawthorn team. They were young by any definition of the word, bottoming out doesn't mean you get better talent than them, things just didn't fall into place and they didn't live up to their billing. They aren't playing any better for Sammy than Clarko, because they don't have the hunger and self belief our greats had.

We can get some of the best young midfield prospects in the AFL right now (which we practically did when we got O'Meara and Mitchell) and there are long odds any of them will ever be good enough to tie up Hodge or Sam Mitchell's bootlaces.

There is no shortcut anymore because we don't have the credibility of a 3-time premiership team, we have to spend many years building up a great team, and that's once we have elite talent which we are not assured of having.

 

[ahhhhhh]

There's some copium among the Hawthorn board with Clarko somehow having ducked up our list and the new youth focused direction is all it takes to get it right, when guys like Mitchell and O'Meara were less than 25 when we traded for them, Wingard was 24-25. Ricky Henderson didn't set us back years, this isn't a realistic approach to the situation, the talent we got was just not good enough to replace an all-time great Hawthorn team. They were young by any definition of the word, bottoming out doesn't mean you get better talent than them, things just didn't fall into place and they didn't live up to their billing. They aren't playing any better for Sammy than Clarko, because they don't have the hunger and self belief our greats had.

We can get some of the best young midfield prospects in the AFL right now (which we practically did when we got O'Meara and Mitchell) and there are long odds any of them will ever be good enough to tie up Hodge or Sam Mitchell's bootlaces.

There is no shortcut anymore because we don't have the credibility of a 3-time premiership team, we have to spend many years building up a great team, and that's once we have elite talent which we are not assured of having.

The bolded part is certainly not true, Jaeger had not played in 2 years.

 

[Endorphin Machine]

I agree our effort has generally been good this season and I think Mitchell is coaching well with a good gameplan.

But our list profile is absolutely dire. We are going to need to nail just about every one of our upcoming picks in the next three drafts and thats a low probability outcome.

I don't envy Sam's role in the next few years, he really doesn't have a lot to work with at all in the short to medium term.

I think we are only now realising how much hurt that top up policy from Clarko caused.

I think we’ve got about 6 spots to fill in the coming years as part of generational change. 2 forwards to replace Breust/ Gunston , 2 spots in the midfield to replace Tom/ Jom, another ruck and a key back. So yeah, we’re quite a ways to go , maybe 3 years before we’re ready to start challenging assuming the recruiters get it right (which I trust they will) .

 

[HODGEYROAD]

I think we’ve got about 6 spots to fill in the coming years as part of generational change. 2 forwards to replace Breust/ Gunston , 2 spots in the midfield to replace Tom/ Jom, another ruck and a key back. So yeah, we’re quite a ways to go , maybe 3 years before we’re ready to start challenging assuming the recruiters get it right (which I trust they will) .

Probably about 4-5 mids needed, two to replace them and another 2-3 to replace current ones that aren't good enough.

 

[Kuuz]

Interestingly, none of the media are talking really about this match from either team perspective. Feels like a black hole, which really sums up the quality of the game.

I feel like owing to the conditions, there's only so much you can take from this game. We will have plenty of winnable games coming up and I feel whether the year is a "success" or not will be on whether our young brigade shine against bad opposition.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Said it before this year but wins or losses mean very little to me this year.

Flat out disappointed with the effort today. Some really lowered their colours.

Shout out to Morrison, was strong all day and won some really good 1 on 1 contests. Think he was clearly our best today.

Also once again leased with what i saw from Macdonald, will be a great player going forward.

Its hard to rubbish anyone really. They couldn't cope with the wet and our sport is a wetweather sport.
Too comfortable on the lush carpets they play on, fumbled slipped kicking off the ground holding marks is a concern even in dry,
it is rebuilding instances all the time. And that's fine, they have got an A grade elite game and it is a matter of them getting used to
all conditions and the elite standard they have to keep putting together.
But I reckon they got flummoxed by the conditions, .

Having said that, I think GWS only handled the conditions a little bit better I really think the the kicking was pretty bad as well I think 4 points in a row.

 

[Dewnior]

Get Gunstan nd Impey out of the team.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it but Impey is a shadow of the player he was He now seems to be playing in self preservation mode. I've even seen him take short steps on a number of occasions now and feel a little embarrassed for him.

 

[Hawksboy72]

Kosi gets out marked/bodied way to easily week after week.
Time to either try him downback for a few weeks.
Chuck Dima I'm the middle or up forward.
And what ever we get for Mitchell, Omeara and Wingard...take it.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

My partner is a Hawthorn member so I have seen a fair few Hawks games over the last 10 yrs.
Jiath has been poor
Worst on last week, and no better this.
He leaves his man free all the time without affecting the contest he goes to, and takes too many short steps when it's his time to go.
Oppo players called him out last season - and he shirked a few yesterday.
In the last quarter his man jogged off him at will constantly.

Maybe the wing is his go - he is skilled - but he doesn't seem to have the discipline or ticker to be a permanent defender.

Morrison, Mitchell and Reeves tried their guts out. Gunner, sadly , through no fault of his own, is cooked.

Sam Mitchell has some hard choices to make at seasons end.

I'll be at the Crows game - a Hawks win is needed. If only to get some peace and quiet at home!

CJ was good i thought, he was super clean, didn't see him fumble at all and went at 86%!!! in the wet.

 

[CHUBBSS]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it but Impey is a shadow of the player he was He now seems to be playing in self preservation mode. I've even seen him take short steps on a number of occasions now and feel a little embarrassed for him.

I mention it every week, his no longer the impey we once knew, I would be asking questions on the surgery if I was him..