Opinion The Apprenticeship is over. Your Job starts now Dimma

[brazilblue]

Seeing as we haven't played finals yet (in fact we finished 3 1/2 games and % out of the 8) I'd say it's highly debatable that we have the list to play finals yet. As everyone says we've got some nice top end talent, but we've also still got a lot of developing kids who are starting 22 and still need to take the next step if we're going to get somewhere.

Following from this if we don't make the finals it's not necessarily due to Dimma's coaching, it may be simply that some players don't come on as expected. That's not to say he shouldn't be under the spotlight. He's made mistakes in the past and has had increased scrutiny on him this year, but it's not necessarily the be all and end all.

I took a keen interest in Richmond last year and when in full flight you were pretty decent ... injuries played their part last year and looking at your recruiting this year its obvious you are trying to add to your depth so the same thing does not happen next year.

I have said in a few posts that given a good run with injuries a top eight finish should be in the ballpark and that should be what Dimma is tested upon.

Some of your more rose coloured supporters think top 4 is a chance but I see more anywhere from 7th to 10th.

I think you are a very realistic supporter and that you clearly think Dimma is the man. I also think he has been great for the RFC but am not convinced he has that x factor ... but (as long as we keep beating you) I would be gladdened to see that he did.

I would be nice to see the RFC in finals footy again ... I for one have missed you .... and US for that matter!

 

[The Goon]

I
I think you are a very realistic supporter and that you clearly think Dimma is the man. I also think he has been great for the RFC but am not convinced he has that x factor ... but (as long as we keep beating you) I would be gladdened to see that he did.

Not necessarily. What i do think is that while he's made mistakes he's done the job he had to do in rebuilding and getting us competitive. Like you I think he hasn't shown yet that he has that "X factor", but he really hasn't had the list to show it (and is still going to rely on the continued development of a lot of players).

In some ways last year was the first year we really got to see his wares, and despite fielding one of the youngest teams in the comp it looked pretty decent until our paper-thin depth kicked in.

 

[DrMike]

Do you understand that outside the Suns and Giants we were the youngest list in the league last year? When you're that young and inexperienced you are naturally going to struggle to close out games. That is because you either don't know what to do or are physically unable to do what you need to do due to exhaustion. With another preseason under their belts as well as the addition of a few more mature/experienced players we should be better positioned to close out those games we couldn't last year.

Not even mentioning the fact that we don't have to play Webberley

 

[brazilblue]

Not necessarily. What i do think is that while he's made mistakes he's done the job he had to do in rebuilding and getting us competitive. Like you I think he hasn't shown yet that he has that "X factor", but he really hasn't had the list to show it (and is still going to rely on the continued development of a lot of players).

In some ways last year was the first year we really got to see his wares, and despite fielding one of the youngest teams in the comp it looked pretty decent until our paper-thin depth kicked in.

Could not have said it better myself.

Completely agree.

That is why I will be watching him closely this year. Yes your list is still young but it is good enough to show something this year. Dimma has been able to have a free reign because of the terrible state your list was in. Thank God he came to the helm and was given that time and by all looks the recruiting team hasn't let him down with the high picks you have been given.

Your trading has had its pros and cons like most teams and you still have a little deadwood to get rid of but for his first three years I really cannot fault him ... he has been tracking well.

I was all for Ratten as well even though a lot of our supporters never gave him a chance. I think he did a tremendous job taking us to where he did but even though he had a horror run with injuries this year in my heart I think our list needed a Mathouse or a Roos to get what most people agree is a list full of potential that really needs to live up to it NOW.

Richmond in my mind is starting to get there as well ... all I am saying in reference to Dimma is that his blank slate is now over ... no I do not expect RFC to be world beaters but there should be scrutiny on him as of next year. His pass mark is not top 8 only because there will be a number of good teams next year and a few will unluckily miss out.

His pass mark for me should be you beating all the teams you should clearly beat, beating a couple higher than you, giving a good show with those at your level and keeping your team playing for each other etc.

Ratten in my eyes never had the team believing in itself and his message to the players seemed to get lost in translation. That is why he was never going to be a premiership coach (but will make one hell of an assistant).

Is Dimma in the same boat?
Next couple of years will show this I think.

 

[Wallaby]

History shows poor sides that have had a few years of poor performances tend to make a sudden leap up the ladder, rather than slowly climb two or three spots per year.
From 2000-2004, St Kilda went 16th, 16th,15th,11th,3rd
From 2000-2003, Sydney went 10th, 7th, 11th, 4th.
Collingwood went 10th,11th,10th, 14th. 16th. 15th. 9th, then 2 GFs, 95-2003.
Hawthorn went 15th, 14th, 11th, 5th, Flag.
Carlton finished 11th in 97, 11th in 98, and made the GF in 99, and finished 2nd on the ladder in 2000.
When Port Adelaide finished top 3 years in a row, the previous 2 years were 14th, then 3rd.

I think it's a combination of a) being a poor side, b) cleaning out and having a lot of young players and c) them all clicking around the same time.

I think we are in position c - but it all depends on whether our players are good enough when they click. We know Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio and maybe Maric and Rance are. What about Martin, Vickery, Batchelor, Conca, Edwards, Houli, Grigg, etc - how much improvement do they have? They are all still under 25.

I guess you could argue that one thing in our favour is that our best 3 players (Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio) are 22, 24 and 25 respectively. Of Carlton's best players, the youngest is Murphy, who's 25. The Saints have one OK player under 25 (McEvoy - the St Kilda list age profile is dire). Pav and Sandi are 30+ (Fyfe is young). Watson is 27 at essendon, and their next best is probably Goddard who is also 27. yes, all have young up-and-comers - just like us. Probably the Pies are the other team with 'Youngest Stars'. Hawks are close.

 

[Madison]

Talk about selective memory!
Same old Richmond smashed the premiers, I mean really smashed them, that first qtr we made em look stupid.
Oh, the raging flag favourite and runners up, Hawthorn...kicked their holy arses too.
StKilda game? Same old Richmond...?

New Richmond sunshine, on the path to glory, bit of pain on the way. It doesn't happen overnight with kids, but you can see the development right in front of you.

Go Tiges.

Yeah but if anything that just proves my point more.

We beat those teams when we were outside the eight. After those wins, all we had to do was beat one of the teams below us, and we would have been in eighth spot on the ladder.

But after trouncing the two top of the ladder teams, we lost to Freo at the G (first time they had won there in about 6 years). We lost to GC. Then we smashed Adelaide and were up by five goals at quarter time, all we needed to do was win that game and we were in the eight but we lost that too. etc.

It's like we are allergic to getting into the eight. We were on the verge last year after beating teams above us, and then we dropped 'gimme' games to actually get in.

So, same old Richmond.

 

[CoggaRules]

Yeah but if anything that just proves my point more.

We beat those teams when we were outside the eight. After those wins, all we had to do was beat one of the teams below us, and we would have been in eighth spot on the ladder.

But after trouncing the two top of the ladder teams, we lost to Freo at the G (first time they had won there in about 6 years). We lost to GC. Then we smashed Adelaide and were up by five goals at quarter time, all we needed to do was win that game and we were in the eight but we lost that too. etc.

It's like we are allergic to getting into the eight. We were on the verge last year after beating teams above us, and then we dropped 'gimme' games to actually get in.

So, same old Richmond.

Not nessecarily dude. Dont forget our opening 6-7 round fixture was a baptism of fire, so we came of that in a so so way and then improved enough to beat the two top of the ladder teams, admittedly when they were not top of the ladder teams. We dropped games we shouldnt have, yes, we stumbled against lesser lights, yes, but there was no expectations of us making the 8, the expectations arose purely because we performed so well against the swans and dawks, so the bar was reset on the fly.
Next season we can adjudicate on whether its the same old Richmond, tipping it aint though.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Yeah but if anything that just proves my point more.

We beat those teams when we were outside the eight. After those wins, all we had to do was beat one of the teams below us, and we would have been in eighth spot on the ladder.

But after trouncing the two top of the ladder teams, we lost to Freo at the G (first time they had won there in about 6 years). We lost to GC. Then we smashed Adelaide and were up by five goals at quarter time, all we needed to do was win that game and we were in the eight but we lost that too. etc.

It's like we are allergic to getting into the eight. We were on the verge last year after beating teams above us, and then we dropped 'gimme' games to actually get in.

So, same old Richmond.

No not the same old Richmond at all just a very long season for a bunch of kids. You only hold form through experience and depth , infortunately we lost key players namely Foley and Grimes and that really hurt us.

The Gold Coast game aside we were not involved in any blowouts and finished the season with a percentage we have not had since 1986.

The games we dropped against North and Carlton but have a look at those teams and the age experience in them compared to ours and you'll see the difference. At least the club has pulled the strings correctly in the off season and free agency to fix this problem.

We are no where near the old Richmond except for the last 17 seconds of the Cairns game.

 

[Madison]

Not nessecarily dude. Dont forget our opening 6-7 round fixture was a baptism of fire, so we came of that in a so so way and then improved enough to beat the two top of the ladder teams, admittedly when they were not top of the ladder teams. We dropped games we shouldnt have, yes, we stumbled against lesser lights, yes, but there was no expectations of us making the 8, the expectations arose purely because we performed so well against the swans and dawks, so the bar was reset on the fly.
Next season we can adjudicate on whether its the same old Richmond, tipping it aint though.

Sydney was on top of the ladder when we beat them (IIRC).

But when those expectations arose, and we had the chance to get in the eight, and we were winning games that would have seen us in the eight, we crumbled. Just like we always have. Doesn't matter if the expectations were reset mid season, when we could have gotten into the eight by winning a 'gimme' game, we folded.

 

[Madison]

No not the same old Richmond at all just a very long season for a bunch of kids. You only hold form through experience and depth , infortunately we lost key players namely Foley and Grimes and that really hurt us.

The Gold Coast game aside we were not involved in any blowouts and finished the season with a percentage we have not had since 1986.

The games we dropped against North and Carlton but have a look at those teams and the age experience in them compared to ours and you'll see the difference. At least the club has pulled the strings correctly in the off season and free agency to fix this problem.

We are no where near the old Richmond except for the last 17 seconds of the Cairns game.

Long season? Quarter time against Adelaide we were five goals up and playing brilliantly. Win that game and we are in the eight. The next three quarters was some of the most frustrating footy I have ever watched, and we crumbled.

Carlton were playing a VFL team almost they had so many injuries, and we were leading that with a few minutes left, and we crumbled.

We were beating North at 3/4 time to get in the eight, and we crumbled.

We had to play Freo at the G, and even though they hadn't won there since 2005 or something, and they just got smashed by Hawthorn a week or two before, and if we had of won we would have found ourselves in the eight, yet we crumbled.

Seeing a pattern?

We play great footy, until we can get ourselves into the eight, then we tighten up. Has been happening my whole life (26) and until we consistently make finals, I will never let my guard down.

Cautious optimism from me. I thought we were dead set sure things to make finals in 2009, and I am seeing a lot of the same vibe on the board at the moment As if it is a sure thing.

 

[CoggaRules]

Sydney was on top of the ladder when we beat them (IIRC).

But when those expectations arose, and we had the chance to get in the eight, and we were winning games that would have seen us in the eight, we crumbled. Just like we always have. Doesn't matter if the expectations were reset mid season, when we could have gotten into the eight by winning a 'gimme' game, we folded.

ok so they were but as I said back then, but they had no Goodes and to a lesser extent no Mummy and we just happened to be Johnny on the spot for once where those kind of stars aligned and took our opportunity.
As i have maintained over the stretch, Goodes is the difference between Swans being top 4 and being say 9-8-7.
This is why they bent over with the cash for Tippett, to be ready when the time comes that Goodes hangs the boots up. But alas for them, Tippett, or anyone else for that matter barring Pavlic comes within light years of the versatility, balance, mobility and size coupled with skill of a Goodes.

 

[The Goon]

I think it's a combination of a) being a poor side, b) cleaning out and having a lot of young players and c) them all clicking around the same time.

I think we are in position c - but it all depends on whether our players are good enough when they click. We know Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio and maybe Maric and Rance are. What about Martin, Vickery, Batchelor, Conca, Edwards, Houli, Grigg, etc - how much improvement do they have? They are all still under 25.

To me this is the crux. I doubt we'll see improvement from established experienced players, for instance Lids, Cotch, Jack, Maric, Newman, Grigg, Houli, Foley, Edwards, Chaplin, King, Nahas, Edwards, Knights, Morris (Cotch & Jack possibly will improve [god help the opposition if they do], but we already know what we have there). So to take the next step into the 8 our youth has to improve.

Martin - can he improve his game and consistency to become a game changer?
Conca - love his endeavour but can he improve and become A grade?
Ellis - ditto.
Grimes - can he get on the park?
Griff - can he get a good run of games and will he come good? (To me he'll either end up A grade or a bust due to injury.)
Batchelor - has shown glimpses, can he become a solid B grader?
Vickery - can he come back to and build on his 2011? With his body right he should be aiming at B+ minimum.
Vlastuin - how will he go?
Others - can we get 2-3 gems (or even solid B's) from the rest of the list?

We get above 50% on these kids development and we'll play finals - no doubt at all. We get above 75% and top 4 wouldn't be out of the question.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Long season? Quarter time against Adelaide we were five goals up and playing brilliantly. Win that game and we are in the eight. The next three quarters was some of the most frustrating footy I have ever watched, and we crumbled.

Carlton were playing a VFL team almost they had so many injuries, and we were leading that with a few minutes left, and we crumbled.

We were beating North at 3/4 time to get in the eight, and we crumbled.

We had to play Freo at the G, and even though they hadn't won there since 2005 or something, and they just got smashed by Hawthorn a week or two before, and if we had of won we would have found ourselves in the eight, yet we crumbled.

Seeing a pattern?

We play great footy, until we can get ourselves into the eight, then we tighten up. Has been happening my whole life (26) and until we consistently make finals, I will never let my guard down.

Cautious optimism from me. I thought we were dead set sure things to make finals in 2009, and I am seeing a lot of the same vibe on the board at the moment As if it is a sure thing.

I am seeing a pattern . Games go for 4 quarters and seasons go for 22 rounds. Ask Essendon about that little theory. Just have faith that the coaching staff are putting the miles into our players legs and another pre season will go along way to bridging the gaps in games you mentioned.

 

[MightyTiger]

What is this 'x factor' people speak of that our coach supposedly lacks?

And how does 'x factor' relate to a coach and how do you define it?

 

[smasha]

Yeah but if anything that just proves my point more.

We beat those teams when we were outside the eight. After those wins, all we had to do was beat one of the teams below us, and we would have been in eighth spot on the ladder.

But after trouncing the two top of the ladder teams, we lost to Freo at the G (first time they had won there in about 6 years). We lost to GC. Then we smashed Adelaide and were up by five goals at quarter time, all we needed to do was win that game and we were in the eight but we lost that too. etc.

It's like we are allergic to getting into the eight. We were on the verge last year after beating teams above us, and then we dropped 'gimme' games to actually get in.

So, same old Richmond.

Forgot about the Crows game.That first quarter was some of the best football Richmond played all year.
Gold Coast game was the biggest disappointment seeing as we had something to prove and were getting thrashed all first half let alone the catastrophe of the last 3 mins.
All the good football we played up to that game then that abomination.
Good teams put Gold Coast away.Gold Coast didn't fear us and we mentally let em in.

 

[HeadandShin]

To me this is the crux. I doubt we'll see improvement from established experienced players, for instance Lids, Cotch, Jack, Maric, Newman, Grigg, Houli, Foley, Edwards, Chaplin, King, Nahas, Edwards, Knights, Morris (Cotch & Jack possibly will improve [god help the opposition if they do], but we already know what we have there). So to take the next step into the 8 our youth has to improve.

Martin - can he improve his game and consistency to become a game changer?
Conca - love his endeavour but can he improve and become A grade?
Ellis - ditto.
Grimes - can he get on the park?
Griff - can he get a good run of games and will he come good? (To me he'll either end up A grade or a bust due to injury.)
Batchelor - has shown glimpses, can he become a solid B grader?
Vickery - can he come back to and build on his 2011? With his body right he should be aiming at B+ minimum.
Vlastuin - how will he go?
Others - can we get 2-3 gems (or even solid B's) from the rest of the list?

We get above 50% on these kids development and we'll play finals - no doubt at all. We get above 75% and top 4 wouldn't be out of the question.

I like your thinking BUT I feel that in the group list of "no improverment" players above are Chaplin, Knights and A Edwards. Surely that they are on our list at the expense of the of Miller,Moore and Maric (to name 3, and there were worse players no longer with us) is already a BIG improvement. Just those 3 additions available for the GC game last year and I suggest that it would have been a different result (I actually think our current rookies would have made enough difference in that game). The fact that we have improved our depth in this way for basically zero cost is a huge plus for us. I really believe that the free agency changes alone would have contributed to 3.5 (GC, Carlton, North and Port) extra wins last year alone and at that point it would have been down to % to be in the 8. When you look at our list "Ins" vs the "outs" there is a massive improvement to our depth. And as has been pointed out that depth cost us dearly last season. Also, if comparing 2012 to 2013 you must also consider that Foley only played half the season, if he plays 20 games in 2013 his output has doubled, and that is a big improvement.

Seriously though, I also take heart from the fact that we were the 3rd youngest list last year and have, IMO, plenty of natural improvement that will come from our young guys from the additional pre-season and the additional games played (vs their 2012 versions).

Am I delusional? Maybe. But I have to believe. If I am wrong I can be miserable at that time, until then I will be quietly confident that we will step up big time in 2013.

Go Tiges

 

[Tzatziki_Man]

'Expectations for 2013' is another way of saying you either 'swim' or get your head bitten off like we've been doing here at Richmond since 1981.

It's just not the way too do business anymore.

Improvement (more wins than last year/percentage increase) = Guaranteed fifth year for Dimma.

 

[nut]

ROIDS

RICHMOND
OPTIMISN
IN
DECEMBER
SYNDROME

 

[Mr Magic]

What is this 'x factor' people speak of that our coach supposedly lacks?

And how does 'x factor' relate to a coach and how do you define it?

X factor for a coach,, ha ha thats one of the best BS lines I have every heard,..... lolll

Actually , I seen Brazilblue came up with the X factor comment.

Hmm maybe this along the lines of some like Maclure suggesting Ratten can get you to the top 8 but not the next step.

Hmm, maybe, maybe not, I don't know the coaches personally so I have NFI but benefit of the doubt atm, and our list isn't good enough to worry about that yet IMO so let the development continue.

regardless, X factor in our coach can always be subtituted by big footy, , toss toss

 

[DrMike]

What is this 'x factor' people speak of that our coach supposedly lacks?

And how does 'x factor' relate to a coach and how do you define it?

Finals.

It's not a skill set, people will only ever judge a coach on results.