The graveyard thread for endless off topic posturing on persons causing bi-polar responses

[El_Scorcho]

I think you missed the part where a contested ball winner is meant to get the ball to players on the outside who have the time and space necessary to actually make good decisions and not just bomb the ball into the forward line like Wingard was prone to do.

There are clearances that make a difference - the Robbie Gray style clearance - and clearances that are done based on just wanting to get the ball out of there - the Wines style clearance.

Wingard should have been doing the Gray style clearance but instead was too busy padding his ******* stats with dinky handball chains first so he ended up doing the hit and hope Wines style clearance. He never did the team thing.

Hilariously, this loser is going to Kokoda for a preseason. He'll break a nail and refuse to do it, and Clarkson will realise just what a dud he's been sold.

There are a handful of players in the league who have the traffic awareness to get out of a clearance regularly like Robbie Gray. Normal practice is to set screens and handball chain to get to the outside.

I think we'd agree that the clearance stat is one of the more useless stats in terms of how good it makes your football team. There should be 2 stats, a basic clearance for a hack forward and an effective clearance for where you end up being with a relatively unpressured possession.

But this was specifically about winning the ball, so Wingard's stats can't be denied. He was one of our best ballwinners. And according to your flowchart, winning the contested ball means getting the ball to outside runners. Except it doesn't. Not unless you've got a good system for moving the ball out of congestion and finding that outside player or unpressured possession.

 

[Janus]

There are a handful of players in the league who have the traffic awareness to get out of a clearance regularly like Robbie Gray. Normal practice is to set screens and handball chain to get to the outside.

I think we'd agree that the clearance stat is one of the more useless stats in terms of how good it makes your football team. There should be 2 stats, a basic clearance for a hack forward and an effective clearance for where you end up being with a relatively unpressured possession.

But this was specifically about winning the ball, so Wingard's stats can't be denied. He was one of our best ballwinners. And according to your flowchart, winning the contested ball means getting the ball to outside runners. Except it doesn't. Not unless you've got a good system for moving the ball out of congestion and finding that outside player or unpressured possession.

Lol, it doesn't if you're going to be a selfish ******* ball hog and bomb the ball into the forward line instead of using the players around you who are running in support 15-20m away.

And Wingard wasn't relying on setting screens and handball chains to get it to the outside. There could have been literally no-one around at a clearance and he'd still do a dinky wall-pass style handball to pad stats before booting the ball deep into the gleefully waiting arms of a defence that had setup while he was busy ******* around.

Also, individually winning contested ball isn't the thing, because hardball gets are rated as contested possessions as well. It's about the secondary contest - getting to that to prevent a take away or to win the ball yourself. No one denies that Wingard was a great centre clearance player. But he's ******* crap around the ground as a clearance player. I don't have the stats, but I'm willing to bet his contested possession rate was great when the ball was in the middle and he was able to feed off of Ryder/Wines etc and get the loose ball, but it fell in a hole in every other area.

And why couldn't he get to secondary contests around the ground? Because he wasn't fit enough and couldn't run out games...which came back to his application.

The guy just isn't that good. Insanely talented, yes, but he'll never fulfil that talent because he's got too many people blowing smoke up his ass about how great he is.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Lol, it doesn't if you're going to be a selfish ******* ball hog and bomb the ball into the forward line instead of using the players around you who are running in support 15-20m away.

And Wingard wasn't relying on setting screens and handball chains to get it to the outside. There could have been literally no-one around at a clearance and he'd still do a dinky wall-pass style handball to pad stats before booting the ball deep into the gleefully waiting arms of a defence that had setup while he was busy ******* around.

Also, individually winning contested ball isn't the thing, because hardball gets are rated as contested possessions as well. It's about the secondary contest - getting to that to prevent a take away or to win the ball yourself. No one denies that Wingard was a great centre clearance player. But he's ******* crap around the ground as a clearance player. I don't have the stats, but I'm willing to bet his contested possession rate was great when the ball was in the middle and he was able to feed off of Ryder/Wines etc and get the loose ball, but it fell in a hole in every other area.

And why couldn't he get to secondary contests around the ground? Because he wasn't fit enough and couldn't run out games...which came back to his application.

The guy just isn't that good. Insanely talented, yes, but he'll never fulfil that talent because he's got too many people blowing smoke up his ass about how great he is.

It's not actually that easy to quickly analyse Wingards's stats this year given how much better he was when he moved into the midfield compared with up forward, but if you look at his games from round 12 onwards when he went into the middle full time, he would have been one of our top few stoppage clearance players, with probably only Wines clearly ahead of him from that perspective.

He was also 3rd in average contested possessions across the season despite averaging single figures until going into the midfield from round 12.

I guess you can argue that maybe he should have been better if he'd trained harder but he was at least very good at winning the ball. That's not something we can replace easily and you're arguing that it's the primary problem when it comes to our lack of success.

 

[OneGreatClub]

I think you missed the part where a contested ball winner is meant to get the ball to players on the outside who have the time and space necessary to actually make good decisions and not just bomb the ball into the forward line like Wingard was prone to do.

There are clearances that make a difference - the Robbie Gray style clearance - and clearances that are done based on just wanting to get the ball out of there - the Wines style clearance.

Wingard should have been doing the Gray style clearance but instead was too busy padding his ******* stats with dinky handball chains first so he ended up doing the hit and hope Wines style clearance. He never did the team thing.

Hilariously, this loser is going to Kokoda for a preseason. He'll break a nail and refuse to do it, and Clarkson will realise just what a dud he's been sold.

Or.. Kokoda could be the making of him. Clarko is determined that the player he has coveted and wooed both publicly and privately for years will be a success. He got him a year earlier than he and Chad had planned but he will make it work. Our coaches have let us down too, but in my opinion it will reflect poorly on Wingard if he finally decides to pull his finger out and live up to his potential now he has left rather than giving his all for a club and supporter base he professed to love. Big shame but such is life. I refuse to pine after him.

 

[Janus]

It's not actually that easy to quickly analyse Wingards's stats this year given how much better he was when he moved into the midfield compared with up forward, but if you look at his games from round 12 onwards when he went into the middle full time, he would have been one of our top few stoppage clearance players, with probably only Wines clearly ahead of him from that perspective.

He was also 3rd in average contested possessions across the season despite averaging single figures until going into the midfield from round 12.

I guess you can argue that maybe he should have been better if he'd trained harder but he was at least very good at winning the ball. That's not something we can replace easily and you're arguing that it's the primary problem when it comes to our lack of success.

And yet when Wingard went into the middle we consistently lost contested posesssion...because he just did what Wines was doing and went for the primary ball because he wasn’t fit enough to get to the secondary contest.

This is why when people talk s**t about Smith just getting to contests because he’s fit, I don’t know what the * they are talking about, because that’s exactly what we need.

 

[OneGreatClub]

If only Port had thought of sending Wingard to the Kokoda trail to break his Fortnite addiction. A brilliant Clarko move.

 

[simba_]

i could see how the season 5/6 battlepasses were more alluring than working for Port's gameplan

 

[Amarula]

**** Jared Polec. That little campaigner is gonna run around for his third club with his third new number on his back. He has no loyalty.

I reckon that if another club, for their own reasons, wants to offer him way overs in money and length of contract, we'd be mad to match it and he'd be mad not to take it.

Hard to blame him for taking an insane offer.

 

[Magus]

I reckon that if another club, for their own reasons, wants to offer him way overs in money and length of contract, we'd be mad to match it and he'd be mad not to take it.

Hard to blame him for taking an insane offer.

I don't blame him but I'm not gonna get mad at the club for not bending over backwards for him either.

 

[Relativity]

Quote deleted

Ok. He was a far from skilled 2 times all Australian. And Dixon came from behind and slid under Barrass in that marking contest. It may have been a poor delivery from Wingard but it was a run of the play injury, not a hospital pass as some on here have rewritten post the Wingard defection.

 

[Jack Grange]

Ok. He was a far from skilled 2 times all Australian. And Dixon came from behind and slid under Barrass in that marking contest. It may have been a poor delivery from Wingard but it was a run of the play injury, not a hospital pass as some on here have rewritten post the Wingard defection.

My criticism of Chad is not so much about his execution but the option(s) he chooses...e.g. v the crows when he selected from memory to pass to a flat footed SPP in the middle rather then hold the ball a kick down the line...Thanks to some Motlop magic we were bloody lucky to get away with a win...For a player who is 'elite' his decision making IMHO is not elite...

 

[Tibbs]

My criticism of Chad is not so much about his execution but the option(s) he chooses...e.g. v the crows when he selected from memory to pass to a flat footed SPP in the middle rather then hold the ball a kick down the line...Thanks to some Motlop magic we were bloody lucky to get away with a win...For a player who is 'elite' his decision making IMHO is not elite...

Chad was an anomaly! His instinctive touches could be breathtakingly skillful, but when he had enough time, he would often make poor decisions. Did he second-guess himself? Too many coaching instruction? Who knows?

 

[King_Tredrea]

Chad was pretty comfortably the most skillful/talented player on our list

 

[manureid]

You read some amount of shite on this board. In particular about departed players.

 

[Doctor Feel]

You read some amount of shite on this board. In particular about departed players.

Chad was garbage m8. Only got those AA's in his prime here because of his hair flick.

 

[Willsy10]

We just can't move on from the departed players can we. Get over it.

 

[jac147]

My criticism of Chad is not so much about his execution but the option(s) he chooses...e.g. v the crows when he selected from memory to pass to a flat footed SPP in the middle rather then hold the ball a kick down the line...Thanks to some Motlop magic we were bloody lucky to get away with a win...For a player who is 'elite' his decision making IMHO is not elite...

Also went for the same stupid kick against the Eagles EF match 2017. Had the chance to catch his breath, have a look around and have a backward pass to soak up the time, but no he went for the heroe kick to SPP who had two opponents on him and guess what it came back for that “later considered incorrect free kick”. Last 3 years he’s been crap for us. Good riddance!

 

[Magus]

I see both sides of the argument.

Chad 2013-2015 was a superstar.

The Chad of the last few years was inconsistent with the odd flash of brilliance. He also had a stinky attitude.

He will play some great games for Hawthorn and will get way more praise from the football world. I personally am more excited by who we have brought in. I think Rozee and Burton will be really special and hopefully more consistent than Chad has been lately.

 

[manureid]

His attitude last 2 years probably mirrored mine, just I am not getting paid to play. To state he had 'no skill' is just wank.

 

[Magus]

His attitude last 2 years probably mirrored mine, just I am not getting paid to play. To state he had 'no skill' is just wank.

There's no doubt that the negative gamestyle would have rubbed a few players the wrong way. However Chad had the ability to really turn it on and be a matchwinner which we rarely saw. He may have finished top 5 or 6 in the B&F or whatever it was in a bad year but he should be better than that.

 

[glitch01]

Some massive revisionism going on here.
Love them, hate them, good attitudes or bad, Polec and Wingard were both good if not great players for us.
Football is now a business, players come and go for whatever reasons.
This whole progressive talking down of their skill and commitment to the club is pretty childish.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Forzaport]

Some massive revisionism going on here.
Love them, hate them, good attitudes or bad, Polec and Wingard were both good if not great players for us.
Football is now a business, players come and go for whatever reasons.
This whole progressive talking down of their skill and commitment to the club is pretty childish.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

It is. I expect Polec to average 20+ disposals on a wing for North and Wingard to kick 50 goals playing as a forward. It is what it is. If this team of ours delivers success, no one will care what Polec and Wingard are doing.

 

[Janus]

It is. I expect Polec to average 20+ disposals on a wing for North and Wingard to kick 50 goals playing as a forward. It is what it is. If this team of ours delivers success, no one will care what Polec and Wingard are doing.

Polec, sure.

Wingard, no chance. That means he’d have to kick 2 goals a game and make the GF doing it. He’s just not that good, and never was that good.

 

[Visenfest]

Polec, sure.

Wingard, no chance. That means he’d have to kick 2 goals a game and make the GF doing it. He’s just not that good, and never was that good.

I think you're right about Wingard, in the sense that while he has the potential to be that good, he'll never have the motivation to get there. He might get a small bounce next year, but I think old habits will creep back in.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Polec, sure.

Wingard, no chance. That means he’d have to kick 2 goals a game and make the GF doing it. He’s just not that good, and never was that good.

Good point, aside from the fact that he has already kicked 50+ goals in a year, and has already averaged 2+ goals in a year twice.