News Welcome to Hawthorn Jon Patton : Retired

[rei154]

Can we please stop using the term 'victim' when describing someone who saw a picture of a dick on the internet?

Crap take.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Whichever mate hated Essendon the most?

 

[William Wonka]

Crap take.

One of the girls openly admits to willingly shagging him before he sent her any pics.

To use the same nomenclature as we do with people who have had their life destroyed by being tortured and raped is insulting.
Its not the in the same ballpark or city or country... or galaxy for that matter.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

One of the girls openly admits to willingly shagging him before he sent her any pics.

To use the same nomenclature as we do with people who have had their life destroyed by being tortured and raped is insulting.
Its not the in the same ballpark or city or country... or galaxy for that matter.

The word victim isn’t based on severity though. If someone had their wallet stolen by a pick pocket they’re a victim of theft the same way someone who is bashed and robbed is a victim. Just because you think it’s okay for blokes to just flash their dicks around online doesn’t mean women have to.

 

[rei154]

One of the girls openly admits to willingly shagging him before he sent her any pics.

To use the same nomenclature as we do with people who have had their life destroyed by being tortured and raped is insulting.
Its not the in the same ballpark or city or country... or galaxy for that matter.

What Ned said. Also, having sex with someone doesn't sign you up to a life time of putting up with unsolicited dickpics and harassment. Consent for one act doesn't entitle the person to sex/sexual interactions for life.

It isn't a competition.A victim is a victim is a victim. Comparing victim circumstances like that is stupid, don't do it.

 

[William Wonka]

The word victim isn’t based on severity though. If someone had their wallet stolen by a pick pocket they’re a victim of theft the same way someone who is bashed and robbed is a victim. Just because you think it’s okay for blokes to just flash their dicks around online doesn’t mean women have to.

Its like comparing Fred Hollows to someone who gives a tin of expired baked beans to a charity appeal.

Ever seen a vagina online?
Were you traumatized???

What Ned said. Also, having sex with someone doesn't sign you up to a life time of putting up with unsolicited dickpics and harassment. Consent for one act doesn't entitle the person to sex/sexual interactions for life.

It isn't a competition.A victim is a victim is a victim. Comparing victim circumstances like that is stupid, don't do it.

It shoots holes in the "What if someone flashed their dick at your mum at the station" argument if she had just finished sucking it though doesn't it?

 

[Hawk_francais]

Its like comparing Fred Hollows to someone who gives a tin of expired baked beans to a charity appeal.

Ever seen a vagina online?
Were you traumatized???


It shoots holes in the "What if someone flashed their dick at your mum at the station" argument if she had just finished sucking it though doesn't it?

Your dp is extremely appropriate for your ideological position on sexual harassment.

By the way you probably need to tone down the language, not everyone here wants to talk like we’re on schoolies.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Becoming very apparent who the poster is who slides into the DMs with unsolicited dick pics.

 

[mick]

Mate it wasn’t just ‘groping a woman’ as you diminish it to. It was sexual assault of a complete stranger which he passed off as ‘oh I thought it was some other woman I hooked up with that night’. Class act.

It was not my intent to diminish what Ferguson had done, I used the description of the offence that was used by news reports https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/nr...t-conviction-not-recorded-20140626-zsn5h.html
It was how the offence was reported.

You feel quite qualified to diminish his defence even though it was taken into consideration by the court. I have started a conversation with a complete stranger in a supermarket and blindly reached to grab her hand, I thought it was my mrs next to me - I probably scared the s**t out of her, it scared the s**t out of me when I saw it wasn't my wife, it was pretty embarrassing. I wasn't even drunk, I was just distracted and didn't notice my wife leave to get other stuff. I've touched my wife's arse before in public (hidden from view) Thankfully I didn't do that to the poor woman in the supermarket. I would hate to lose my job and never be able to practice my profession again over that sort of sexual assault.

I've had a little kid come up and grab my hand at the Melbourne Show. I was holding hands with a complete strangers kid, that is beyond creepy if taken out of context.

Comparing sexual assault to low range drink driving? Honestly, spare me. Let’s put it this way - if you had a mate who had been done for low range drink driving and a mate who thought it was kosher to grab a woman’s genitals under her underwear without any inkling of consent - which one are you going to pick to babysit your kids?

Are you referring to Ferguson here and with the digital rape accusations? That is how I read it. Here is the video of what Ferguson did - https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...cident/video/71086edf1687af3d12c4497c570b1fdc

I cannot see Ferguson go "downstairs" in this video. I saw him grope her in the breast region, from behind, his head seemed to by buried in her neck, I do see how it is possible he could have mistaken her identity - It is still sexual assault, it does not diminish the victim's trauma one iota. He shouldn't be grabbing people in public like that anyway, even if he thought he had consent. His behaviour did not represent the values of the Roosters, they have every right to sack him. I am saying that a 2-year penalty is sufficient and his behaviour did not warrant a lifetime ban.

I am curious, why use the term "Low range" drink driving when referring to Hodge, but not place any mitigation on Fergusons' sexual assault. I mean it is hardly high-end sexual assault, is it? The possible consequences of Hodges illegal act appear to be far more damaging then Fergusons. I mean she slapped him, (rightfully so), she not appear frightened of him or overly intimidated. I don't know if she had any lasting effects from Ferguson's assault, but she appeared to handle it like a champ.

I've had my dick rubbed in a nightclub, I liked it, it was consensual, should the woman have accidentally done it to another bloke thinking it was me, I am not sure she would be treated the same way as Ferguson, and neither should she, there are degrees of sexual assault as there are degrees of drink driving. Both are bad.

To be honest, I reckon it would be pretty cool to have Luke Hodge babysit my kids, but wouldn't want him driving them anywhere if he was drinking. I would not want Ferguson teaching my kids about gender equality or respect for women, but I don't think the video of what he did puts him at risk of being a paedophile -if that is what you were inferring. I'd probably let him babysit, if Hodgey wasn't available or on the booze.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

mick you’re comparing sexual assault to drink driving and comparing non-consensual and deliberate groping of a woman’s genitals (her claims) to accidentally touching someone’s hands. Come back to me when you want to argue in good faith - honestly not your best work here.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

mick you’re comparing sexual assault to drink driving and comparing non-consensual and deliberate groping of a woman’s genitals (her claims) to accidentally touching someone’s hands. Come back to me when you want to argue in good faith - honestly not your best work here.

But isn't this the big footy way, start losing traction on one point so we start introducing other roughly similar arguments to muddy the waters in an attempt to save face.

The last five pages would not exist if someone, anyone said hey you know what I think you might be on to something and I think I've got it wrong, thanks for the heads up.

Or

Just stay on point when not conceding.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

But isn't this the big footy way, start losing traction on one point so we start introducing other roughly similar arguments to muddy the waters in an attempt to save face.

The last five pages would not exist if someone, anyone said hey you know what I think you might be on to something and I think I've got it wrong, thanks for the heads up.

Or

Just stay on point when not conceding.

Hey I’ve probably used my fair share of bad analogies to support failing arguments before also - I just hope it wasn’t nearly as bad as the ‘I touched someone’s hand when shopping’ equivalency.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

Hey I’ve probably used my fair share of bad analogies to support failing arguments before also - I just hope it wasn’t nearly as bad as the ‘I touched someone’s hand when shopping’ equivalency.

Just on that analogy given. It did bring back a chilling memory of mine from the mid 70s when on holidays in Tasmania, visiting the Hobart show walking around with the family I was about 6/7 years old started getting crowded so I reached out to grab the oldmans hand for comfort without looking and kept walking for about five minutes or so when the person I was holding hands with asked if I needed to go to the toilet, s**t a brick I had no clue that the hand I was holding wasn't my dad's, I ran like stink, I didn't have clue what I was running from at the time embarassment probably, so when I found the family and carried on like nothing happened.
Creepy thinking back.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Just on that analogy given. It did bring back a chilling memory of mine from the mid 70s when on holidays in Tasmania, visiting the Hobart show walking around with the family I was about 6/7 years old started getting crowded so I reached out to grab the oldmans hand for comfort without looking and kept walking for about five minutes or so when the person I was holding hands with asked if I needed to go to the toilet, sh*t a brick I had no clue that the hand I was holding wasn't my dad's, I ran like stink, I didn't have clue what I was running from at the time embarassment probably, so when I found the family and carried on like nothing happened.
Creepy thinking back.

Jesus! That would be rather terrifying. I once had a guy on the phone who mistakenly rang our house back in the 90s when you used to get the old STD beeps at the start of the call. Only person who used to call us interstate was my grandad so I answered the phone and thought it was him. The guy who'd rang was clearly a deviant and pretended to be my grandad and started talking sexually to me - and I was only about 8 at the time so had no idea what to do. Took me most of the afternoon to tell my mum what had happened because she could see I had been impacted by it. I hope that guy encountered the wrong end of the Yellow Pages at least once in his life.

 

[rei154]

It shoots holes in the "What if someone flashed their dick at your mum at the station" argument if she had just finished sucking it though doesn't it?

Which is completely irrelevant because these women hadn't literally just finished a sexual encounter with him. Even if they had, still not super relevant. Consent can be retracted at any time and at any point in the encounter.

Why are you so keen to downplay Patton's behaviour?

 

[Flukey!]

Good lord...this thread....

Understanding that the AFL is leading the investigation, surely the penalty for Jon is a league imposed suspension and/or fine?
I cant see him being deregistered or anything equally as extreme.

 

[Brishawk]

Good lord...this thread....

Understanding that the AFL is leading the investigation, surely the penalty for Jon is a league imposed suspension and/or fine?
I cant see him being deregistered or anything equally as extreme.

Probably need to wait to see what the investigation turns up. Regardless, on what I have seen, Patton has a serious problem and probably playing football is not the best thing he can be doing to overcome his issues. I suspect he won’t play again regardless of the outcome of the investigation.

 

[mick]

mick you’re comparing sexual assault to drink driving and comparing non-consensual and deliberate groping of a woman’s genitals (her claims) to accidentally touching someone’s hands. Come back to me when you want to argue in good faith - honestly not your best work here.

yeah, point taken as admitted I am bad at analogies. I wasn't trying to say that holding hands with a stranger is equivalent to grabbing a woman's breast. I was trying to point out that I have mistaken my wife for someone else and I wasn't in a club and drunk. So from my perspective, Ferguson's defence carries far more weight than it obviously does with you.

My issue is not so much that one offence (sexual assault) is the same as another (drink driving). That would be pretty hypocritical. I've been done for being in control of a vehicle with a high BAC I had a far higher reading than Hodge's. I wasn't driving, but that is a whole other story.

My query was what you think qualifies a "Ban for life", I wasn't having a crack. I was genuinely interested to hear if you thought any sex offence (Watching Reg 4A pr0n for instance) was worthy of a life ban and why you thought this was worse than drink driving.

I have issues the way posters (not you in particular, but I'll use yours as an example) take liberties in condemning the accused in these matters. I don't think we afford them the same protections as we do the victims. I do not think you are deliberately spreading falsehoods or maliciously slandering, but if you took the same liberties with the victim's reputation it would be horrendous.

Saying that Ferguson " grabbed woman’s genitals under her underwear without any inkling of consent " - when shown a video that this did not happen or was even claimed by the victim is not as wrong as putting up a pic of a victim and saying - she deserved it look how she was dressed, but it still aint right.

Putting O'laughlin in the same boat as a Scumbags like Ablett (or even Carey) is pretty wrong from what I've seen of the public record of the Hueskes incident. Shaun Burgoyne's brother was accused of exactly the same thing as O'laughlin, at the same time by the same person. If Shaun told me that his brother masturbated while Hueskes was having consensual sex with a woman and paid 30 grand out of his own pocket to keep this out of the public eye, I'd believe him. Then again if Shaun Burgoyne told me the sky was purple I'd probably go get my glasses checked. I am not trying to defend what the three players did (especially Hueskes), I am saying that I do not think it is right to suggest the allegations of rape (assisting or encouraging someone to rape carries the same penalty) are facts and to act like they are isn't the right thing to do.

I've seen lots of instances in this thread of posters claiming as a FACT that Patton has been doing this for years ( not sending dick picks, lots of anecdotal evidence suggesting this is true, but sending unsolicited offensive pictures - which in my mind is different thing entirely). Claiming for a FACT that he is being investigated by the Police (I asked a copper, he said "I can't comment on that contact Police Media - while shaking his head). Claiming as a FACT that if Patton did send a dick pic then it was against the law if the woman was offended. I have concerns that none of these statements are correct, and do not see an issue with questioning it.

Comparing Ferguson's sexual assault to drink driving, in my opinion, has about the same equivalency as you comparing Ferguson's assault to paedophilia, this is what I thought you were getting at with the babysitting my kids question.

I was getting called out as a victim blamer (BrisHawk), I get it, he is quite right and I can see why he thought that. I hope I have made clear that I do not blame the victims or in any way think they deserved Pattons alleged offences. That being said, making unsubstantiated claims about, Ferguson, Patton, Burgoyne and O'loughlin is, probably just as bad. ( I was going to put Carey in there, but bugger it, blame him all you want)

Apologies for the analogies, I know I should steer clear of them, but one day I'll get one right.

 

[hawkmang]

Traded for 2020 forth round pick.
Absolute steal in my book welcome Jon

Been 12 months in the making but pumped for him to be officially a Hawk.

Excited to have a fully fit Patton tearing it up over the pre season and seeing him on the park Round 1!

Great result for the club and for Jonathon himself.

He should be fit and mentally refreshed once preseason rolls around. I'm looking forward to seeing what he and Lewis can do in tandem, taking heat off each other.

How blissfully ignorant we were on what was to come. This thread has become a dumpster fire

 

[Ned Ryerson]

yeah, point taken as admitted I am bad at analogies. I wasn't trying to say that holding hands with a stranger is equivalent to grabbing a woman's breast. I was trying to point out that I have mistaken my wife for someone else and I wasn't in a club and drunk. So from my perspective, Ferguson's defence carries far more weight than it obviously does with you.

My issue is not so much that one offence (sexual assault) is the same as another (drink driving). That would be pretty hypocritical. I've been done for being in control of a vehicle with a high BAC I had a far higher reading than Hodge's. I wasn't driving, but that is a whole other story.

My query was what you think qualifies a "Ban for life", I wasn't having a crack. I was genuinely interested to hear if you thought any sex offence (Watching Reg 4A pr0n for instance) was worthy of a life ban and why you thought this was worse than drink driving.

I have issues the way posters (not you in particular, but I'll use yours as an example) take liberties in condemning the accused in these matters. I don't think we afford them the same protections as we do the victims. I do not think you are deliberately spreading falsehoods or maliciously slandering, but if you took the same liberties with the victim's reputation it would be horrendous.

Saying that Ferguson " grabbed woman’s genitals under her underwear without any inkling of consent " - when shown a video that this did not happen or was even claimed by the victim is not as wrong as putting up a pic of a victim and saying - she deserved it look how she was dressed, but it still aint right.

Putting O'laughlin in the same boat as a Scumbags like Ablett (or even Carey) is pretty wrong from what I've seen of the public record of the Hueskes incident. Shaun Burgoyne's brother was accused of exactly the same thing as O'laughlin, at the same time by the same person. If Shaun told me that his brother masturbated while Hueskes was having consensual sex with a woman and paid 30 grand out of his own pocket to keep this out of the public eye, I'd believe him. Then again if Shaun Burgoyne told me the sky was purple I'd probably go get my glasses checked. I am not trying to defend what the three players did (especially Hueskes), I am saying that I do not think it is right to suggest the allegations of rape (assisting or encouraging someone to rape carries the same penalty) are facts and to act like they are isn't the right thing to do.

I've seen lots of instances in this thread of posters claiming as a FACT that Patton has been doing this for years ( not sending dick picks, lots of anecdotal evidence suggesting this is true, but sending unsolicited offensive pictures - which in my mind is different thing entirely). Claiming for a FACT that he is being investigated by the Police (I asked a copper, he said "I can't comment on that contact Police Media - while shaking his head). Claiming as a FACT that if Patton did send a dick pic then it was against the law if the woman was offended. I have concerns that none of these statements are correct, and do not see an issue with questioning it.

Comparing Ferguson's sexual assault to drink driving, in my opinion, has about the same equivalency as you comparing Ferguson's assault to paedophilia, this is what I thought you were getting at with the babysitting my kids question.

I was getting called out as a victim blamer (BrisHawk), I get it, he is quite right and I can see why he thought that. I hope I have made clear that I do not blame the victims or in any way think they deserved Pattons alleged offences. That being said, making unsubstantiated claims about, Ferguson, Patton, Burgoyne and O'loughlin is, probably just as bad. ( I was going to put Carey in there, but bugger it, blame him all you want)

Apologies for the analogies, I know I should steer clear of them, but one day I'll get one right.

Happy to take your previous comments that you are not victim blaming but presenting the way things might be seen as true - so no qualms there. Not saying Ferguson is a kiddy fiddler - it was more along the lines of based on what the parties were victim to who would you feel had the better reputation overall to look after your child. Possibly a bad analogy also - my point was I think sexual assault or abuse of a player's partner are bad enough to warrant not playing the game at the highest level. Others may disagree - that's fine. I don't think playing NRL/AFL is a human right - it's a highly paid privilege and I feel there are certain offences that should see you deregistered for good. I am not suggesting it should preclude individuals from any kind of employment and I am sure they are plenty of other jobs he can do - however I work in an industry where a criminal record will see you unemployable so I don't see why footballers should be some kind of protected species on this front

The CCTV footage to me isn't conclusive one way or the other to me - and Ferguson's arm is obscured by someone in front of him and the footage is of horrid quality. The victim absolutely claimed the incident happened as I described as that is how his original guilty verdict was determined - with the magistrate rejecting his claims that he grabbed her thigh. (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...t-cronulla-nightclub-2230-20131211-2z64p.html). The victim made a report to the police that evening.

 

[Gralin]

can we please stop with graphic details about unrelated mattters

 

[derp de derp]

This thread is very painful.

Hawthorn is the family club, any kind of sexual misconduct or misogynist behaviour can not be tolerated in any form.

I won’t dig up the past but there are 2 other examples that come to mind where these values were questioned and the players are no longer at the club. In both instances the outcome ended well for both player and the club and I have faith that this will be resolved in an equally positive manner.

The club is always bigger than the individual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mick]

You are quite right, that article is completely different to the article I read. That is the first I have seen of him being accused of going downstairs (I don't follow league that much). Thank you for clarifying why you made those claims, fully understandable to me now.

My take on the video was that she is wearing tight white pants, and her left leg was raised, so Ferguson grabbing REDACTED under underwear was not likely, but you are spot on, it is pretty bad quality. I actually thought he was grabbing her chest, with his right hand, and that was what the fuss was about, I'd be a shocking 3rd umpire.

 

[Brant]

But isn't this the big footy way, start losing traction on one point so we start introducing other roughly similar arguments to muddy the waters in an attempt to save face.

The last five pages would not exist if someone, anyone said hey you know what I think you might be on to something and I think I've got it wrong, thanks for the heads up.

Or

Just stay on point when not conceding.

Welcome to BigFooty!

Rule 1.
At some point you'll need to move away from facts or continuity & focus more on your feelings or try to establish a Utopian high ground - otherwise you'll never know exactly which other posters you're better than.



I just copy/pasted this from the user instructions page on the sign-up screen. Seems legit!

 

[kazzooka]

Well if Stephen Milne could come back from being accused of rape in 2004 and avoid being charged for nearly 10 years all while being publicly vilified as a rapist (to the degree that oppo coaches could call him a rapist while he was playing) then I suppose any recovery is possible, but I just don't see it with Patton. I think it would be better for the club and him if he just left, and got treatment for whatever issues he has.

Times have changed though, in 2004 Demetriou has no issue with Milne playing and thought any sort of decision to stop him would be pre-empting the Police investigation. These days, the Afl doesn't need the police, they do their own investigating. That is probably a good thing. But it does strike me as strange that a chap who admitted to sexual assault was able to continue a career longer than a bloke who denies sending offensive dick pics. I guess it just reflects how community standards have changed, which really is a good thing.

Milne was a geniune star though.