List Mgmt. What to do with McCartin?

Ricmel

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What do we see as a pass mark for him next year?
Obviously a continuation of games and getting games because he deserves them.
My view:
35 goals +
I really hope we are not even having the discussion. Read this forum. There are supporters here that have been waiting years for players like McCartin, Acres, Dunstan, Sinclair etc to break out. All of these players have MAJOR flaws - McCartin is a brick, Acres is fumbly and lacks urgency, Dunstan cannot hit the side of a barn, Sinclair is a downhill skier. They had these flaws 3 years ago and they have them now. You are not going to win a flag with Dunstan as your in and under mid.

What I really admire about clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong is how quickly they weed out flaws. They are not frightened of turning players over, taking a punt, turning over and taking a punt, turning over and taking a punt. Eventually they find the players that they need.

We tend to hang on to our flawed players until they simply fade out of the game.

It's a really sad thing for Paddy - bummer about the diabetes, bummer about the concussion, bummer he probably feels he has never had a good long crack at it. But frankly, right now about the only thing Paddy is doing on the list will be to delay the development of Max.
 

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MrFoster

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Maybe, but we didn't waste the last 3 years creating a forward set up for Tom Lynch to dominate. We didn't burn our only number one draft pick since the early noughties on Tom Lynch. I don't blame Paddy, he did all he could and more. But the person in charge of that decision had to pay with his own head, despite any mitigating circumstances and his other wins. It damaged the club heavily and I think we are only now realising how much after giving the decision benefit of the doubt initially.
Just thinking about our past draft choices... we have always been an old fashioned and workman like team... with big star forwards (Hall, Lockett, Riewoldt, Gehrig) and a small group of star mids (Harvey, Winmar, Burke, Hays, Ball, Steven, Goodard) to kick the ball long or accurately (see Harvey).. the rest of the team are all lesser likes, or flankers etc.. e.g. they hardly ever got used.. Our game plan was kick it to the gun forward/s 99% of the time.. so drafting lynch who is not a key forward, needs the ball to be effective was a waste of time.. To me, we still have not transitioned to the new era where you play with 6-8 pure mids to win the midfield battle.. that's why we have so many flankers and no many mids who can actually win the ball, gather it and use it well.. we never valued these players..

So, we need to decide what game plan do we need to adapt to.. then get those players who can actually execute the game plan.. no problem with recruiting paddy.. just that we don't have the silky smooth mids to laser pass the ball to him.. and he can't beat his man.. last year, we tried a play-on-at-all-cost game plan which requires many skillful mids and running players which we don't have.. this year, we slowed it right down by mainly kicking it down the line, this is less risky and means we don't get scored against quickly and we stay in the game.. but it's also hard work, boring to watch and low scoring.. hopefully the coaching staff/team can find a happy medium in the middle somewhere.. and we get the most of our current team..
 

MrFoster

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We didn't build a game plan around Paddy. We built one around Roo and drafted the first key forward we could snag hoping he'd slot right in as Roos replacement.
Sadly, I think our poor development, bomb it long game style and Paddy's lack of awareness/bravery also contributed to his injury/concussion issues.. Paddy was a leading full forward in the under 18s, never a pack mark.. but Riewolt he is not.. Roo get a lot of his marks from pure gut running and his atheleticism... Paddy is not the same type of player, so bombing the ball on Paddy's head was never going to work.. I think if Paddy went to Geelong, he would have been a much more effective forward, unfortunately, maybe not with the same injury issues.. because they will get him to lead from the goal square and kick it to him, rather than long bomb and getting crunched by 2-3 players every 5 minutes.. Same goes with Goddard...

Hopefully with Ratten/Lade, the development/game plan side of the things will get better.. and we can keep turning the list over to get better..
 

plugger66

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Sadly, I think our poor development, bomb it long game style and Paddy's lack of awareness/bravery also contributed to his injury/concussion issues.. Paddy was a leading full forward in the under 18s, never a pack mark.. but Riewolt he is not.. Roo get a lot of his marks from pure gut running and his atheleticism... Paddy is not the same type of player, so bombing the ball on Paddy's head was never going to work.. I think if Paddy went to Geelong, he would have been a much more effective forward, unfortunately, maybe not with the same injury issues.. because they will get him to lead from the goal square and kick it to him, rather than long bomb and getting crunched by 2-3 players every 5 minutes.. Same goes with Goddard...

Hopefully with Ratten/Lade, the development/game plan side of the things will get better.. and we can keep turning the list over to get better..
You aren’t serious. Blaming the game plan for paddy’s concussion. Really. It’s a contact sport whether you lead or not. And there is bugger all room to lead in footy these days anyway.
 

gringo2011

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I really hope we are not even having the discussion. Read this forum. There are supporters here that have been waiting years for players like McCartin, Acres, Dunstan, Sinclair etc to break out. All of these players have MAJOR flaws - McCartin is a brick, Acres is fumbly and lacks urgency, Dunstan cannot hit the side of a barn, Sinclair is a downhill skier. They had these flaws 3 years ago and they have them now. You are not going to win a flag with Dunstan as your in and under mid.

What I really admire about clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong is how quickly they weed out flaws. They are not frightened of turning players over, taking a punt, turning over and taking a punt, turning over and taking a punt. Eventually they find the players that they need.

We tend to hang on to our flawed players until they simply fade out of the game.

It's a really sad thing for Paddy - bummer about the diabetes, bummer about the concussion, bummer he probably feels he has never had a good long crack at it. But frankly, right now about the only thing Paddy is doing on the list will be to delay the development of Max.

Those clubs recruit better options to replace existing players. I think all of those players would be looking for new homes if there were realistic replacements. If Tom Mitchell came to us he'd have pushed Dunstan out. If we had recruited Constable/ Worpel he would have been pushed out etc.

It's never as simple as moving on players and bringing in new ones. You have to have the player capable of being an upgrade. People on here say that we don't develop players well, perhaps part of that is not knowing which ones are likely to make in and therefore worth giving extra time too.

I would guess someone at the club has been dictating terms to the footy department like that guy who stuffed up the Tigers for years. If Richo keeps his job it's because he's doing what's expected of him or what he's told to do. Same with Trout, he was terrible but he must have been a line toer.

We also started a large scale rebuild at literally the worst time since probably the end of the world wars with franchise teams taking bulk talent. Added to that the drafting was terrible and Richo seemed to move on the players drafted under Watters with out giving many another go.

I think losing 2 GFs meant we wanted to be close and so kept playing guys that could have gone for too long to remain kind of competitive which pushed the length of the rebuild out.

When we lost to Collingwood last year Nathan Burke was on radio saying that we had recruited players that didn't play the game style the senior coach wanted them to. At that point it became pretty obvious that we needed someone like Neil Balme who oversaw the whole club's direction from drafting to coaching. I hope that's Gubby now.

To me there were all different parts of the club with different agendas all woking against each other for too long. If we have sorted out that it will go along way toward building a future. I think bringing in older payers was an admission that what we were doing had failed up until now. So far it's worked really well. We have been poor at the draft but quite good from recruiting and this is a way to get talent outside the regular pathway.
 

MrFoster

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Those clubs recruit better options to replace existing players. I think all of those players would be looking for new homes if there were realistic replacements. If Tom Mitchell came to us he'd have pushed Dunstan out. If we had recruited Constable/ Worpel he would have been pushed out etc.

It's never as simple as moving on players and bringing in new ones. You have to have the player capable of being an upgrade. People on here say that we don't develop players well, perhaps part of that is not knowing which ones are likely to make in and therefore worth giving extra time too.

I would guess someone at the club has been dictating terms to the footy department like that guy who stuffed up the Tigers for years. If Richo keeps his job it's because he's doing what's expected of him or what he's told to do. Same with Trout, he was terrible but he must have been a line toer.

We also started a large scale rebuild at literally the worst time since probably the end of the world wars with franchise teams taking bulk talent. Added to that the drafting was terrible and Richo seemed to move on the players drafted under Watters with out giving many another go.

I think losing 2 GFs meant we wanted to be close and so kept playing guys that could have gone for too long to remain kind of competitive which pushed the length of the rebuild out.

When we lost to Collingwood last year Nathan Burke was on radio saying that we had recruited players that didn't play the game style the senior coach wanted them to. At that point it became pretty obvious that we needed someone like Neil Balme who oversaw the whole club's direction from drafting to coaching. I hope that's Gubby now.

To me there were all different parts of the club with different agendas all woking against each other for too long. If we have sorted out that it will go along way toward building a future. I think bringing in older payers was an admission that what we were doing had failed up until now. So far it's worked really well. We have been poor at the draft but quite good from recruiting and this is a way to get talent outside the regular pathway.
Constable 36 and Worple 45 are both late draft picks. We could have gotten them if we valued pure mids.. We didn’t.. we consistently overvalue our own.. we think Acres/Dunstan will come good, and that Coffield a half back flanker will magically become a gun full time mid.. leaving us very short in the mids department.. For that, the coaches and recruiters should take the blame..
 
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I think it all becomes a part of the process in a club with good culture and structure. Clubs like Hawthorn, Geelong, WCE, they have a very good system on recruiting, talent search etc. Their players development system is really good.

Club like ours lacks some discipline in structure and culture, which has flow on effect on players.

We are making progress and heading in right direction but it will take some time to change things around.
 

Ricmel

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Those clubs recruit better options to replace existing players. I think all of those players would be looking for new homes if there were realistic replacements. I.
What those clubs do is they do not sit still. They do not allow spuds to sit on their list. Hawks would have traded Acres 2 years ago in a deal involving a couple of 4th rounders for a Sydney 2nd tier player. They would have given the incomer a couple of years to learn to do a role and then he's in or out. Cycle starts again.

We stick like barnacles to players that have obvious flaws that prevent them from playing a role WELL. The club needs to be far more active and honest about players on its' list. Last year I had lunch with a highly decorated ex player, a guy with a lot of influence at Saints and he ran through about 10 players on our list that in his words were not at and never would be at AFL standard.

So why are they still there?
 

Dr Spaceman

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Even though the answer appears obvious to most fans, who have witnessed all the knocks to Paddy's noggin, he deserves to take as much time as necessary to decide his future.

There isn't any real rush to make a decision, and if that decision is indeed as most are calling for, then he deserves all to explore all available opinions and options before arriving at it.

It's hard to imagine him resuming playing however between himself, his partner, his family, the medicos, the club and the AFL, I'm confident whatever decision he makes will be the right one.

Probably the only opinions he doesn't need to take notice of are those of the media and we fans.
 

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Coconut_twirl

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Who says? No medical practitioner has told him that.

Until he had been given that advice, your post is pure ignorance
I understand I'm not a medical professional. Very likely, none of us here. Even if there was a fully qualified doctor reading the Saints forum on BigFooty, they are not actively involved in Paddy's treatment and care.

However, eight concussions can't be healthy long term. We are already seeing a couple of ex AFL footballers coming out and seeking compensation. I understand club doctors are more conservative with concussions during the last 4-5 years, but I don't think Paddy should play again. For health reasons. He has a long life ahead of him. Koby Stevens needs medical marijuana to control his symptoms, so this is serious stuff long term.

Paddy should think for the next 60-70 years, not the now. Concerning if he still experiencing symptoms from his head knock from the JLT.

Petracca should have been number one, a big stuff up considering 17 other clubs thought so. Saints are lucky they got Bruce in a pick 44 trade and Membrey as a delisted free agent. King should be a beauty.
 

Joffaboy

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I understand I'm not a medical professional. Very likely, none of us here. Even if there was a fully qualified doctor reading the Saints forum on BigFooty, they are not actively involved in Paddy's treatment and care.

However, eight concussions can't be healthy long term. We are already seeing a couple of ex AFL footballers coming out and seeking compensation. I understand club doctors are more conservative with concussions during the last 4-5 years, but I don't think Paddy should play again. For health reasons. He has a long life ahead of him. Koby Stevens needs medical marijuana to control his symptoms, so this is serious stuff long term.

Paddy should think for the next 60-70 years, not the now. Concerning if he still experiencing symptoms from his head knock from the JLT.

Petracca should have been number one, a big stuff up considering 17 other clubs thought so. Saints are lucky they got Bruce in a pick 44 trade and Membrey as a delisted free agent. King should be a beauty.
Understand that, but people making definitive statements about things that they have absolutely no knowledge on is just plain wrong.
It does not look good for Paddy but we should all wait and not jump to ignorant conclusions.

DeGoey or Brayshaw should have been no.1 not Petracca.
That said in 20/20 hindsight as I wanted Petracca ahead of McCartin however, he has been underwhelming to say the least.

If we had of taken Petracca, Richo would have been blamed for not developing him.
 

Strahany

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Has anyone seen any condensed information pertaining to when each concussion was sustained; e.g Round X, 201Y?

Emerging evidence surrounding concussion indicates that symptoms resolve within 3-8 days, but our body remains physiologically vulnerable for approximately 22-30days. If someone sustains another concussion whilst in this vulnerable period, then the effects mimic that of a moderate Traumatic Brain Injury, can take 1-2 months for symptom resolution, and remain physiologically vulnerable for even over 4 months (in which if you sustain another concussion, you can imagine the effects there). In addition, the second impact can push neurons into the range of cellular death, which brings up the possibility of permanent effects.
 

Remboy

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DeGoey or Brayshaw should have been no.1 not Petracca.
That said in 20/20 hindsight as I wanted Petracca ahead of McCartin however, he has been underwhelming to say the least.

If we had of taken Petracca, Richo would have been blamed for not developing him.
I agree. If we'd taken Petracca this place would be filled with posts about how we stuffed up by not taking Brayshaw or Degoey.
 

StFly

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I'm happy for him to walk away if he feels he needs to, but I'm not pushing him out the door as he's still a brilliant forward, he's just not there to do it consistently.

Petracca is a gop though, does not excite me at all, puffs his chest and runs around a bit there was always going to be a smokey or random assortment of players that simply went past him, it was just a matter of when and how many.
 

plugger66

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I'm happy for him to walk away if he feels he needs to, but I'm not pushing him out the door as he's still a brilliant forward, he's just not there to do it consistently.

Petracca is a gop though, does not excite me at all, puffs his chest and runs around a bit there was always going to be a smokey or random assortment of players that simply went past him, it was just a matter of when and how many.
Unfortunately paddy was never a brilliant forward. He doesn’t suit footy today. Petracca has been disappointing but always had paddy covered before and after the draft.
 
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Who says? No medical practitioner has told him that.

Until he had been given that advice, your post is pure ignorance

It's my opinion

The amount of concussions he's had is troubling, to say the least. Another thing is the way he sustains them.

His career coming to an end would be really unfortunate, but i'm more worried about his ability to lead a full and normal life if he keeps getting knocked out. There's been a tonne of research done on the long term effects of concussion. I think he'd be playing with fire to risk it again, and i think the club should just do the right thing and call it.

So no, not the opinion of a medical expert. Just the opinion of someone who wishes the best for the young fella.
 

triggering bro

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It's my opinion

The amount of concussions he's had is troubling, to say the least. Another thing is the way he sustains them.

His career coming to an end would be really unfortunate, but i'm more worried about his ability to lead a full and normal life if he keeps getting knocked out. There's been a tonne of research done on the long term effects of concussion. I think he'd be playing with fire to risk it again, and i think the club should just do the right thing and call it.

So no, not the opinion of a medical expert. Just the opinion of someone who wishes the best for the young fella.
You don’t need to be mechanical expert to know your cars stuffed when there’s smoke & fire coming from the bonnet nor do you need to be an expert in the medical field to know 8 concussions in 40 games isn’t good for the long term health of a 22 year old. It’s common sense.

IMO Paddy will not play AFL at the top level again & his retirement will come in about 12 months. It took Picken 12-18 months to formally retire.

Paddy’s contract runs until the end of next year so he’s in no rush to publicly retire & I’m sure it won’t come easily conceding that he won’t ever again play the game he loves.
 

lewdogs

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Unnecessary History Lesson:

After finishing the 2014 AFL season with 4 wins in 22 (against Melbourne, GWS, Essendon and Freo if you must know) and the wooden spoon - below even tankers Melbourne on inferior percentage - with the lowest club membership in six years and lowest average home attendance in twenty (20!) years in Alan Richardson's first season as head coach of an AFL club, St Kilda quite simply had a stinker of a year.

The one silver lining in a very cloudy sky was the bittersweet acquisition of the number one draft pick, which was used in a way which the majority of pundits and experts didn't expect in the drafting of key forward Paddy McCartin. The reasoning behind this decision has been documented in detail in that book by Emma Quayle.

----------------------------------------------

Back to the future:

Four and a half years later, the consequences of that decision are laid bare.

The key forward that Paddy could have been, was supposed to be, has informed our attacking play the last few years and even today is apparent. Long bombs into the forward line which should be marked by the ghost of Paddy's potential are landing in the hands of opposition backmen, for ghosts can't mark.

The bags of goals we were promised to continue the lineage of Riewoldt, Koshitzke, Gehrig, Hall, Loewe, Lockett et al have not appeared, with the ghost of Paddy's potential not able to kick anything with a foot made of ectoplasm and the real Paddy never managing more than 2 a game when he could get onto the park.

The big bustling no-nonsense forward we were sold at the showroom has proven to be a fragile and inconsistent player with a good football brain who can occasionally split a pack, but is as likely to have himself removed from the field of play as have opposition defenders removed. The ghost of Paddy's potential is unable to crunch anything, for 'tis but a phantom.

Josh Bruce is our one tall key forward and our 2019 team looks much better for his return to form, and I'll put my hand up and say I was very vocal in the off season about the need for him to be traded, a position I am not entirely ready to desert. As good as Josh has been, he should not be our lone gun.

Josh Battle is mystifyingly being reprogrammed as a backman, despite his talent up front and our need for it, to make up for the loss of Carlisle, Roberton and Clavarino.

Tim Membrey - despite his orangutan like arms - is no tall and Blake Acres is too inconsistent. We have therefore put all our money on the one they call Winx, but that race won't start for a few seasons, so we have a big McCartin shaped hole in our forward line.

Why Paddy was drafted is not worth discussing, but I'm writing this to state my belief that the effects of that decision have set this club's rebuild back at least a couple of seasons and we need to accept that even if Paddy does overcome the huge hurdle of his concussion/diabetes speedball, he is unlikely to ever be the forward we needed.

He would have been great in the Lockett/Dunstall era, they say. Too slow, too small a tank, they claim. And obviously, too inconsistent in appearance or output to be of much use as a strategic focal point in attack.

A great guy from all accounts, king of the kids, facing insurmountable pressure of number one pick cruelled time and again by injury at a club craving its next saviour in the post-Roo era. But still...

Had Paddy been the forward we needed, our mindless attack into the forward line last year would have brought far more reward and some of those losses would have been wins. We may have even made finals back in 2017.

So forward coach Brett Ratten's main job this summer - I hope - has been closing the book on the McCartin-based attack, and focusing on the mid range fire power at our disposal. However, with Richmond's premiership rapidly disappearing in the rear view mirror and current premier Eagle's KPF one of its strengths, how long before giant forward lines are again all the rage?

Season 2014 was hurtful in so many ways, and it continues to eat away at us, with the effects of drafting "generational bookends" McCartin and Goddard along with MacKenzie and Lonie and rookie Sinclair.

Rant over!
This idea that Battle being reprogrammed as a back is "mystifying" is wrong. Let's give the club and the kid some credit, looks a gun backman to me and has slotted in well there. Brilliant move by the club.
 

mad-saint-guy

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This idea that Battle being reprogrammed as a back is "mystifying" is wrong. Let's give the club and the kid some credit, looks a gun backman to me and has slotted in well there. Brilliant move by the club.
To be fair he was tracking very well up forward also. And most likely trained as a backman with the idea that McCartin was going to play forward and Carlisle was going to miss most of the year. We could really use Battle up forward right now. Rhys Stanley would be even better - would make a great ruck/forward combo with Marshall.
 

t_94

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This idea that Battle being reprogrammed as a back is "mystifying" is wrong. Let's give the club and the kid some credit, looks a gun backman to me and has slotted in well there. Brilliant move by the club.
Yes but its much harder to find good marking forwards than it is defenders. Its the old bowlers win you games, batsmen lose them scenario. Also Marsh is a ready made replacement.
 
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