Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?

[Judd2Sewell]

I've legitimately never seen someone argue that a winger is not a midfielder before, let alone so condescendingly as to reference under 10s and to portray the notion that it is a commonly held view.

We, the whole entire footballing community - including everyone that's ever played and coached at any level, is wrong.

Buttox of the interweb is right. He's ahead of the game.

 

[VinnieB]

Isn't this your second year?

Besides, I wasn’t talking down your kids, I just don’t know if you have any that will play in key positions at all.

2nd year hasn't started as yet.

But the 1st year players that look good are:

Henry
MacCrae
Poulter
Bianco
McCreery
Ginnivan
Ruscoe (2nd year but only played a handful of games and finally played on the backline end of the season where he was recruited and looked excellent).

We considered McInnes (academy) our best prospect (194cm midfielder with speed) from that draft but he didn't play much due to injury, so will be interesting to see how he goes this year. I believe Essendon considered picking him with one of their 3 top 10 picks.

In terms of young key position players, we have Kelly, who unfortunately can't get a break due to injury, but has looked very athletic when he has played, and we picked up a young kid in Begg, who is a very aggressive player but still very raw. Kreuger couldn't break into the Geelong forward line, and again a very aggressive key position player. And we haven't seen Ash Johnson as yet.

Charlie Dean may be a handy rookie pick (VFL Team of the Year and Fothergill-Round-Mitchell winner). Can play both ends.

This draft we have picked up Daicos and Draper as the 2 most likely to get a game. Daicos obviously needs no explaining as potentially one of the best kids to have come out of the draft.

And it seems, while very early, there are some strong key position players likely to go in the top 10 which I assume we are a good chance of grabbing.

We know where we're at. We have a couple more years of building. But after our 1st year going to the draft we found some good kids and hopefully they keep improving with more games this season.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I believe Essendon considered picking him with one of their 3 top 10 picks.

Think this was a bluff to try to get you trade. Dodoro said afterwards he was waiting for a call at pick 10, he was insinuating you guys. Considering what you ended up trading your future first for I think at pick 10 we would have been asking for one of your firsts and a your future. I was disappointed as I thought you'd be taking a tumble down the ladder.

Shame as Callaghan would have been the last piece we needed for our rebuild.

 

[The Warlord]

2nd year hasn't started as yet.

But the 1st year players that look good are:

Henry
MacCrae
Poulter
Bianco
McCreery
Ginnivan
Ruscoe (2nd year but only played a handful of games and finally played on the backline end of the season where he was recruited and looked excellent).

We considered McInnes (academy) our best prospect (194cm midfielder with speed) from that draft but he didn't play much due to injury, so will be interesting to see how he goes this year. I believe Essendon considered picking him with one of their 3 top 10 picks.

In terms of young key position players, we have Kelly, who unfortunately can't get a break due to injury, but has looked very athletic when he has played, and we picked up a young kid in Begg, who is a very aggressive player but still very raw. Kreuger couldn't break into the Geelong forward line, and again a very aggressive key position player. And we haven't seen Ash Johnson as yet.

Charlie Dean may be a handy rookie pick (VFL Team of the Year and Fothergill-Round-Mitchell winner). Can play both ends.

This draft we have picked up Daicos and Draper as the 2 most likely to get a game. Daicos obviously needs no explaining as potentially one of the best kids to have come out of the draft.

And it seems, while very early, there are some strong key position players likely to go in the top 10 which I assume we are a good chance of grabbing.

We know where we're at. We have a couple more years of building. But after our 1st year going to the draft we found some good kids and hopefully they keep improving with more games this season.

This draft (yes) or all drafts (lol)?

 

[VinnieB]

This draft (yes) or all drafts (lol)?

As Cal Twomey said, first couple of months was the most dominant football he has seen including more so than Rowell and Walsh.
The kid averaged 35 disposals and 2 goals a game.

As a Yr10 kid he was playing in the midfield for Carey alongside the Yr 12 boys Rowell and Anderson.

Played for our VFL team against pre-season and was excellent off half back.
Was one of the best players during the season for the draft prospects against Geelong's VFL team where many struggled.

Imagine if he played a full season?

 

[Gavin Excell]

As Cal Twomey said, first couple of months was the most dominant football he has seen including more so than Rowell and Walsh.
The kid averaged 35 disposals and 2 goals a game.

As a Yr10 kid he was playing in the midfield for Carey alongside the Yr 12 boys Rowell and Anderson.

Played for our VFL team against pre-season and was excellent off half back.
Was one of the best players during the season for the draft prospects against Geelong's VFL team where many struggled.

Imagine if he played a full season?

But he hasn't played a game of AFL football yet

Lot of pressure on the kid

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

2nd year hasn't started as yet.

But the 1st year players that look good are:

Henry
MacCrae
Poulter
Bianco
McCreery
Ginnivan
Ruscoe (2nd year but only played a handful of games and finally played on the backline end of the season where he was recruited and looked excellent).

We considered McInnes (academy) our best prospect (194cm midfielder with speed) from that draft but he didn't play much due to injury, so will be interesting to see how he goes this year. I believe Essendon considered picking him with one of their 3 top 10 picks.

In terms of young key position players, we have Kelly, who unfortunately can't get a break due to injury, but has looked very athletic when he has played, and we picked up a young kid in Begg, who is a very aggressive player but still very raw. Kreuger couldn't break into the Geelong forward line, and again a very aggressive key position player. And we haven't seen Ash Johnson as yet.

Charlie Dean may be a handy rookie pick (VFL Team of the Year and Fothergill-Round-Mitchell winner). Can play both ends.

This draft we have picked up Daicos and Draper as the 2 most likely to get a game. Daicos obviously needs no explaining as potentially one of the best kids to have come out of the draft.

And it seems, while very early, there are some strong key position players likely to go in the top 10 which I assume we are a good chance of grabbing.

We know where we're at. We have a couple more years of building. But after our 1st year going to the draft we found some good kids and hopefully they keep improving with more games this season.

Not sounding confident on the young talls.

That’s the biggest issue with the Pies list. Take Darcy Moore out of the side and your spine is seriously lacking in the talls department, with no exposed youngsters of any note in the under 25 range coming through.

The three sides in this discussion have at least 3 each( Crows - Butts, Thilthorpe, Fogarty. North - CCJ, Larkey, McKay. Hawks - Kosi, Lewis, DGB.) and others in reserve.

 

[The Warlord]

As Cal Twomey said, first couple of months was the most dominant football he has seen including more so than Rowell and Walsh.
The kid averaged 35 disposals and 2 goals a game.

As a Yr10 kid he was playing in the midfield for Carey alongside the Yr 12 boys Rowell and Anderson.

Played for our VFL team against pre-season and was excellent off half back.
Was one of the best players during the season for the draft prospects against Geelong's VFL team where many struggled.

Imagine if he played a full season?

Let's the kid get a few games under his belt first.

Right now he should be looking to Tom Powell as his yardstick.

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

I think North get a little overrated because people put too much focus on the midfields.
They have some good players in other spots on the ground. But they still have some holes especially in defence.

Adelaide do as well, but Adelaide’s defence is stronger imo, and I’d have their Offence slightly ahead too.

I think Adelaide gets judged more harshly because of how bad 2020 was but Covid made it the worst possible time for a new coach. Also have a dogs hit fitness department exacerbated the existing problems.

North had a similar problem but the couple extra senior players gave them more stability in performances.

 

[the big lebowski]

I think North get a little overrated because people put too much focus on the midfields.
They have some good players in other spots on the ground. But they still have some holes especially in defence.

Adelaide do as well, but Adelaide’s defence is stronger imo, and I’d have their Offence slightly ahead too.

I think Adelaide gets judged more harshly because of how bad 2020 was but Covid made it the worst possible time for a new coach. Also have a dogs hit fitness department exacerbated the existing problems.

North had a similar problem but the couple extra senior players gave them more stability in performances.

Can you list the young forwards and defenders at the crows you’re referring to?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Can you list the young forwards and defenders at the crows you’re referring to?

I'm not the OP obviously but I would agree that the Adelaide defenders have shown more at this point. Butts looks a good key defensive prospect and Chayce Jones is a quality rebounder. Lachie Scholl (who may play further up) also looked good in his opportunities early in the year. Others have shown signs too.

North don't have much proven defensive talent 23 and under at this stage. Ben McKay looks good but if we include 24 year olds, you would have to mention Tom Doedee, who also is a proven performer (albeit 8-9 months older).

I don't think Adelaide's forwards look better at this stage, albeit they are mostly younger. Thilthorpe looks a future star, Fogarty has been ok and Rachele has not even played a game yet. They have other small forward prospects but none that I think have proven themselves as good, long term options.

North, meanwhile, have Larkey who just had a 40+ goal season as the main guy, Zurhaar who went 30+ and is hard as a cat's head and Stephenson who was a Rising Star winner back in form. CCJ has also shown some decent signs at Richmond.

IN essence, I'd take North's young midfield easily, Adelaide's defenders and North's forwards (acknowledging that the North forward line is generally older and had more of an opportunity). In many ways, it plays out similarly to the comparison with Hawthorn.

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

Can you list the young forwards and defenders at the crows you’re referring to?

Defenders 25 and under closest to the 22 (height order)

Adelaide	North
Butts	Mckay
Murray	Goater
Hinge	Young
Doedee	Bonar
McPherson	Hayden
Hamill	perez
Jones	Bosenavulagi

Plus Milera maybe but let’s say he plays Wong for now.

Forwards

Adelaide	North
Thilthorpe	CCJ
Himmelberg	Larkey
Fogarty	Zurhaar
Cook	Stephenson? (Or midfield?)
Rachele	Bergman
McHenry	Taylor
Murphy	Curtis
Rowe	Lazzaro
Plus McAsey and Gollant	plus Comben and Mahony

Both need to find a better second tall, I doubt CCJ or Himmelberg will quality long term players.

 

[Psicosis]

I think North get a little overrated because people put too much focus on the midfields.

I think the gap between Norths young midfield vs the others, is significant. Which is why it’s rated the clear stand out.

It’s not really a surprise, North have invested early picks in mids, whilst Adelaide have more of a spread across the ground.

Other parts of the ground are closer in terms of the 3 clubs & supporters could argue either way. However, no one in their right mind could argue that North doesn’t have the best mid, hence why it’s rated so highly in this thread.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I think the gap between Norths young midfield vs the others, is significant. Which is why it’s rated the clear stand out.

It’s not really a surprise, North have invested early picks in mids, whilst Adelaide have more of a spread across the ground.

Other parts of the ground are closer in terms of the 3 clubs & supporters could argue either way. However, no one in their right mind could argue that North doesn’t have the best mid, hence why it’s rated so highly in this thread.

Yes but the gap between Hawks defense and Norths is significant.

Forwardline is the one spot which is pretty even.

 

[the big lebowski]

Forwardline is the one spot which is pretty even.

Other than in goals kicked

 

[Psicosis]

Yes but the gap between Hawks defense and Norths is significant.

Forwardline is the one spot which is pretty even.

I’d say that the gap between North & Hawthorns defence, is about as big as the gap between Hawthorn & Norths forward line (Norths forward line clearly ahead if I need to spell it out).

Which is why Norths midfield is a compelling difference when comparing the three sides.

 

[the big lebowski]

Defenders 25 and under closest to the 22 (height order)

Adelaide	North
Butts	Mckay
Murray	Goater
Hinge	Young
Doedee	Bonar
McPherson	Hayden
Hamill	perez
Jones	Bosenavulagi

Plus Milera maybe but let’s say he plays Wong for now.

Forwards

Adelaide	North
Thilthorpe	CCJ
Himmelberg	Larkey
Fogarty	Zurhaar
Cook	Stephenson? (Or midfield?)
Rachele	Bergman
McHenry	Taylor
Murphy	Curtis
Rowe	Lazzaro
Plus McAsey and Gollant	plus Comben and Mahony

Both need to find a better second tall, I doubt CCJ or Himmelberg will quality long term players.

Let’s use your list, with Norths slightly altered to meet reality.

Crows

Fogarty 50
Murphy 47
Himmelberg 26
Thilthorpe 14
Mchenry 11
Cook 0
Rachele 0

Total goals 148

Hawks

Lewis 47
Kozi 27
Moore 31
Worpel 26
Brockman 10
Jeka 2
Butler 0

Total goals 143

North - slight return

Sleevo 93
Larkey 82
Bull 79
Thomas 43
Taylor 12
CCJ 11
JHF 0

Total goals (and the win, by knockout)

320

For the mathematicians that’s over double

Undoubtedly both other teams have other strong young prospects. I give you

Charlie Comben
Jacob Edwards
Paul Curtis
Jack Mahoney
Phoenix spicer
Eddie ford

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

Let’s use your list, with Norths slightly altered to meet reality.

Crows

Fogarty 50
Murphy 47
Himmelberg 26
Thilthorpe 14
Mchenry 11
Cook 0
Rachele 0

Total goals 148

Hawks

Lewis 47
Kozi 27
Moore 31
Worpel 26
Brockman 10
Jeka 2
Butler 0

Total goals 143

North - slight return

Sleevo 93
Larkey 82
Bull 79
Thomas 43
Taylor 12
CCJ 11
JHF 0

Total goals (and the win, by knockout)

320

For the mathematicians that’s over double

Undoubtedly both other teams have other strong young prospects. I give you

Charlie Comben
Jacob Edwards
Paul Curtis
Jack Mahoney
Phoenix spicer
Eddie ford

I doubt you’re being serious, but counting career goals is not great way to compare players of different ages and games experience. And doesn’t necessarily tell everything about their future performance.

Also which players count as forwards and which as mids? I specifically left Thomas and JHF out of the forwards group. Yes they could play both but so players at every club. Pretty sure I’ve seen a few north fans try to double count players earlier in the thread.

 

[the big lebowski]

I doubt you’re being serious, but counting career goals is not great way to compare players of different ages and games experience. And doesn’t necessarily tell everything about their future performance.

Also which players count as forwards and which as mids? I specifically left Thomas and JHF out of the forwards group. Yes they could play both but so players at every club. Pretty sure I’ve seen a few north fans try to double count players earlier in the thread.

Ahah!

I’m glad you brought this up!

Firstly, we are comparing young talent in the forward line. So whilst not a perfect measure, or even the best measure, it’s the most accurate at the moment. And it’s pretty resounding.

It kind of slaps you in the face doesn’t it?

But onto your other point. The mid/fwds. It is tough to keep track because we do seem to have some extreme talent that could be mids but are also gun forwards. I mean how much talent do Thomas, JHF and the great Sleevo share? It’s scary.

But let’s then compare mids, not counting those already counted. That rules out the three for North. Rachele for the crows. And murphy and McHenry (I think I’ve seen one or both used by crow fans in mid rotations. And Worpel for Hawthorn (their exposed forwards really did seem to fall away and fairs fair including some of the fwd/mids I included).

So that’s leaves Norths young mids as

Simpkin
LDU
Phillips
Powell

Vs

Shoenberg
Pedlar
Sholl (?)
Jones (?)
Keays (edit I’ve added Keays in just, as not really young at 25 round 1.)

Vs

Ward
Newcombe
Nash (?)
Day (can’t count him as a defender then)

Pretty stark

 

[hawkman]

Ahah!

I’m glad you brought this up!

Firstly, we are comparing young talent in the forward line. So whilst not a perfect measure, or even the best measure, it’s the most accurate at the moment. And it’s pretty resounding.

It kind of slaps you in the face doesn’t it?

But onto your other point. The mid/fwds. It is tough to keep track because we do seem to have some extreme talent that could be mids but are also gun forwards. I mean how much talent do Thomas, JHF and the great Sleevo share? It’s scary.

But let’s then compare mids, not counting those already counted. That rules out the three for North. Rachele for the crows. And murphy and McHenry (I think I’ve seen one or both used by crow fans in mid rotations. And Worpel for Hawthorn (their exposed forwards really did seem to fall away and fairs fair including some of the fwd/mids I included).

So that’s leaves Norths young mids as

Simpkin
LDU
Phillips
Powell

Vs

Shoenberg
Pedlar
Sholl (?)
Jones (?)

Vs

Ward
Newcombe
Nash (?)
Day (can’t count him as a defender then)

Pretty stark

Worpel is a mid. Just because he kicks goals it doesn't make him a forward. He doesn't even average a goal every 2 games

Total goals as a comparison is just a weird way of comparing forward lines as that just favours the more experienced group which North's top 4 are

Look at it by last years form

Crows

Fogarty 24
Murphy 9
Himmelberg 8
Thilthorpe 18
Mchenry 11
Rowe 15

Total goals 85

Hawks

Lewis 22
Kozi 27
Moore 27
Brockman 10
Jeka 2
Butler 0

Total goals 86

North - slight return

Sleevo 16
Larkey 42
Bull 31
Thomas 24
Taylor 7
CCJ 11
JHF 0

Total Goals 131

Norths obviously lead but Adelaide and Hawthorn both had experienced players like Walker, McAdam and Breust as forward targets where as North completely relied on their top 4 to kick goals

 

[the big lebowski]

Worpel is a mid. Just because he kicks goals it doesn't make him a forward. He doesn't even average a goal every 2 games

Total goals as a comparison is just a weird way of comparing forward lines as that just favours the more experienced group which North's top 4 are

Look at it by last years form

Crows

Fogarty 24
Murphy 9
Himmelberg 8
Thilthorpe 18
Mchenry 11
Rowe 15

Total goals 85

Hawks

Lewis 22
Kozi 27
Moore 27
Brockman 10
Jeka 2
Butler 0

Total goals 86

North - slight return

Sleevo 16
Larkey 42
Bull 31
Thomas 24
Taylor 7
CCJ 11
JHF 0

Total Goals 131

Norths obviously lead but Adelaide and Hawthorn both had experienced players like Walker, McAdam and Breust as forward targets where as North completely relied on their top 4 to kick goals

Yes, you are right.

The young North forwards did out perform the other two teams young forwards by about 50% in 2021. Even including half a season of embarrassing football.

 

[Wazzy36]

Yes, you are right.

The young North forwards did out perform the other two teams young forwards by about 50% in 2021. Even including half a season of embarrassing football.

Do you just not understand how to interpret statistics? Your youngsters are getting more goals because your mids have no one else to kick too, both Hawks and even more so crows kicked to more experienced player/s more often, so you're obviously going to have a higher total. I'm not sure why you're talking about it like a brag when it's just how our current list profiles shake out. That's not even to point out that both our teams kicked more goals than yours anyway, Crows by 20 and Hawks by 29.

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

Ahah!

I’m glad you brought this up!

Firstly, we are comparing young talent in the forward line. So whilst not a perfect measure, or even the best measure, it’s the most accurate at the moment. And it’s pretty resounding.

It kind of slaps you in the face doesn’t it?

But onto your other point. The mid/fwds. It is tough to keep track because we do seem to have some extreme talent that could be mids but are also gun forwards. I mean how much talent do Thomas, JHF and the great Sleevo share? It’s scary.

But let’s then compare mids, not counting those already counted. That rules out the three for North. Rachele for the crows. And murphy and McHenry (I think I’ve seen one or both used by crow fans in mid rotations. And Worpel for Hawthorn (their exposed forwards really did seem to fall away and fairs fair including some of the fwd/mids I included).

So that’s leaves Norths young mids as

Simpkin
LDU
Phillips
Powell

Vs

Shoenberg
Pedlar
Sholl (?)
Jones (?)
Keays (edit I’ve added Keays in just, as not really young at 25 round 1.)

Vs

Ward
Newcombe
Nash (?)
Day (can’t count him as a defender then)

Pretty stark

A few weird takes here.

So you actually think that’s a reasonable measure for indicating for future performance?

That’s absurd. I thought you were taking the piss.

Let’s take it a step further and compare 2 players instead of a group.
Larkey has more career goals than Thilthorpe. Do you think Larkey has more talent or will be a better player than Thilthorpe in the future?
Can you not see the flaw in your argument ?

It’s not the best measure but it’s most accurate? What are you talking about?

Unfortunately I’ve noticed some north fans are getting into the bad habit of manipulating stats to put their team in the best view possible, while ignoring others.

On to the mids point. First off you forgot Dawson, Milera and Berry. But anyway you’ve come fall circle because you’re putting all the attention back on the mids. No one is actually debating that, at most it’s that the gap is not as big as north fans pretend it is.

I’ll assume you’ve conceded on the defence since you chose to just ignore it.

Edit: Also I think we can do without your condescending remarks btw.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Other than in goals kicked

Norf kicked 210 goals for the year, 9.5 avg.

Sit 17th.

Adelaide kicked 230 goals, 10.5 avg.

Sit 14th.

Hawthorn kicked 239 goals, avg 10.9

Sit 12th.


Means F All since it's not all from "young players" and it's not the point but i thought i might aswell say it cause why not.

North's forwards are the oldest of the group, Hawthorn bit of both worlds and Adelaide the youngest (atleast out of the young main talent that is there.)

So it's pretty pointless.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I’d say that the gap between North & Hawthorns defence, is about as big as the gap between Hawthorn & Norths forward line (Norths forward line clearly ahead if I need to spell it out).

Which is why Norths midfield is a compelling difference when comparing the three sides.

Hahahahaha, our defense is way better than yours. Your midfield is way better than ours. Both need to be addressed. Probably slightly less in our terms, we need a couple mids to come on (that we have drafted before and so on) to go with the draftees we just drafted and will draft.

While you need to have the similar/same thing with your defense.

Forwardlines are pretty even as i said and that's my opinion on the youth and talent.

Both teams also have one issue with their main part, your ruck and our key defender. (To support DGB, need 2.)

You just need a good ruck to take over from Goldy.