Analysis Which team out of Essendon, Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?

[The Nostradamus]

If premiership points are the only important metric and we’re talking depth of youth, a quick look at the VFL ladder tells me that Hawthorn and North have the better group.

Sorry, not sorry.

But that could also be due to better injury lists meaning more numbers through the vfl

 

[VinnieB]

Just had a look at players aged 25 and under for total coaches votes for 2023 for each team:

Hawthorn 109
Essendon 105
North 81
Adelaide 79

Surprised to see Essendon so high.. Nic Martin (22) 27 votes and Ridley and Draper who are 25 years old have 19 and 13 respectively.

Surely it's obvious even to you why this is a completely flawed and useless comparison.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If premiership points are the only important metric and we’re talking depth of youth, a quick look at the VFL ladder tells me that Hawthorn and North have the better group.

Sorry, not sorry.

proper big footy stuff....yeah no one really cares about that at all

if that's the win you want, you can have it rofl.

Adelaide and Essendon are daylight ahead of North and Hawthorn, that may change as the kids develop, it may not.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

proper big footy stuff....yeah no one really cares about that at all

if that's the win you want, you can have it rofl.

Adelaide and Essendon are daylight ahead of North and Hawthorn, that may change as the kids develop, it may not.

Threads not really about youth then is it, it’s about wins.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Threads not really about youth then is it, it’s about wins.

ok so let's go look Essendon's academy then, and whilst we are at it Essendon's U12 district leagues..... * it lets just go look at the future father and sons list too.

of course, its about wins. At AFL level Essendon and Adelaide kids are far ahead of Hawthorn and North. Thats just a fact. Could it change next year? Maybe but as it stands? No. You want to claim that your youth is better in the VFL, cool no one cares?

Jesus talking about trying to scrape out a win......

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

ok so let's go look Essendon's academy then, and whilst we are at it Essendon's U12 district leagues..... * it lets just go look at the future father and sons list too.

of course, its about wins. At AFL level Essendon and Adelaide kids are far ahead of Hawthorn and North. Thats just a fact. You want to claim that your youth is better in the VFL, cool no one cares?

Jesus talking about trying to scrape out a win......

LOL, very defensive.

Threads about wins, not about youth on these AFL lists.
I would have thought it was pretty clear and not really something worth having a tanty about.

 

[The Nostradamus]

ok so let's go look Essendon's academy then, and whilst we are at it Essendon's U12 district leagues..... * it lets just go look at the future father and sons list too.

of course, its about wins. At AFL level Essendon and Adelaide kids are far ahead of Hawthorn and North. Thats just a fact. Could it change next year? Maybe but as it stands? No. You want to claim that your youth is better in the VFL, cool no one cares?

Jesus talking about trying to scrape out a win......

Our afl performances aren’t due to kids underperforming it’s the senior players over 25 letting us down

 

[HirdsTheWord]

LOL, very defensive.

Threads about wins, not about youth on these AFL lists.
I would have thought it was pretty clear and not really something worth having a tanty about.

2020 - Hawthorn 15th place
2021 - Hawthorn 14th place
2022 - Hawthorn 13th place
2023 - Hawthorn 16th place

yes, your youths making amazing progress. leaps and bounds.

How exactly would you measure their progress? if not wins/losses.

Just the vibe?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Our afl performances aren’t due to kids underperforming it’s the senior players over 25 letting us down

you honestly and with a straight face think they are doing better than Essendon and Adelaides though?

 

[The Nostradamus]

you honestly and with a straight face think they are doing better than Essendon and Adelaides though?

its genuinely hard to say as they are surrounded by worse senior players

all i can say is our young players are carrying the team more than those other clubs

sheezel and wardlaw are having to put the team on their back in their first season

 

[Elite Master]

Other club supporters like to think "haha North have no good youth and are carried by the old senior players". That could not be further from the truth. Our senior players are the worst senior players in the comp, in fact you could argue our senior group is amongst the worst bunch of experienced players in decades

 

[HirdsTheWord]

its genuinely hard to say as they are surrounded by worse senior players

all i can say is our young players are carrying the team more than those other clubs

sheezel and wardlaw are having to put the team on their back in their first season

I would certainly agree that Norths kids are doing more than their senior players. Not a lot wrong with that statement.

But are they producing better results than Essendon and Adelaide's kids right now? that is a clear no.

 

[The Nostradamus]

I would certainly agree that Norths kids are doing more than their senior players. Not a lot wrong with that statement.

But are they producing better results than Essendon and Adelaide's kids right now? that is a clear no.

I’d disagree with that

Who are your kids performing better than Sheezel and wardlaw?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

2020 - Hawthorn 15th place
2021 - Hawthorn 14th place
2022 - Hawthorn 13th place
2023 - Hawthorn 16th place

yes, your youths making amazing progress. leaps and bounds.

How exactly would you measure their progress? if not wins/losses.

Just the vibe?

Sorry, but it seems you’ve been triggered by a joke about the VFL ladder, and you’re having an argument that no one else is making.

 

[eth-dog]

I’d disagree with that

Who are your kids performing better than Sheezel and wardlaw?

Perkins, Martin

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I’d disagree with that

Who are your kids performing better than Sheezel and wardlaw?

I can't say if their better than those 2 specifically. But Nic Martin, Archie Perkins, Ben Hobbs all are firing well.

but overall, I'd say our youth is ahead along with Adelaide, again that could change with another preseason for North.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

It's a worry when Dom is the most reasonable poster over the last few pages...

All he is saying (over and over) is in assessing quality of youth, you need to look at more than just who has the most wins.

He's repeated again and again that he is NOT saying this means Adelaide/Essendon don't have good (or better) youth (than Hawthorn or North). In fact, he has talked UP the youth of those teams repeatedly.

He is NOT saying those sides solely rely on experienced players either. All he has said is that assessing youth requires more analysis that who has won the most games, given sides have differing levels of contribution from players that are not youth (whether that is good or bad, self inflicted or otherwise).

Surely that is reasonable to everyone in this thread, otherwise we'd believe that Geelong had the best youth last season.

(What I do completely understand is why should supporters of Adelaide and Essendon care? The fact is they are competing for finals and Hawthorn and North are still bottom 4. Whether that's completely youth based or a good mixture of youth and experience should not matter at all to those supporters, particularly if most of the experience still has plenty of seasons left to contribute)

 

[VinnieB]

Perkins, Martin

Not sure Perkins is. Martin definitely.

 

[VinnieB]

It's a worry when Dom is the most reasonable poster over the last few pages...

All he is saying (over and over) is in assessing quality of youth, you need to look at more than just who has the most wins.

He's repeated again and again that he is NOT saying this means Adelaide/Essendon don't have good (or better) youth (than Hawthorn or North). In fact, he has talked UP the youth of those teams repeatedly.

He is NOT saying those sides solely rely on experienced players either. All he has said is that assessing youth requires more analysis that who has won the most games, given sides have differing levels of contribution from players that are not youth (whether that is good or bad, self inflicted or otherwise).

Surely that is reasonable to everyone in this thread, otherwise we'd believe that Geelong had the best youth last season.

(What I do completely understand is why should supporters of Adelaide and Essendon care? The fact is they are competing for finals and Hawthorn and North are still bottom 4. Whether that's completely youth based or a good mixture of youth and experience should not matter at all to those supporters, particularly if most of the experience still has plenty of seasons left to contribute)

That’s true. Although, a team with more wins is likely to mean that quite a number of kids on their list aren’t able to break into the senior team as yet, and so are simply being dismissed. Doesn’t necessarily mean they are not better. In fact, a team with good senior players, and winning makes it more difficult for a kid to break in. So those that do are likely to be of high quality playing their role in success.

So, all in all, the whole thing is a fairly useless argument. Just like the fact the age determine ‘youth’ seems to now be 25 yrs and under.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

That’s true. Although, a team with more wins is likely to mean that quite a number of kids on their list aren’t able to break into the senior team as yet, and so are simply being dismissed. Doesn’t necessarily mean they are not better. In fact, a team with good senior players, and winning makes it more difficult for a kid to break in. So those that do are likely to be of high quality playing their role in success.

So, all in all, the whole thing is a fairly useless argument. Just like the fact the age determine ‘youth’ seems to now be 25 yrs and under.

Yes, agreed. I don't think it necessarily means that the kids that do break in are always higher quality (in better teams) as there can be a range of factors influencing who gets a game and who doesn't (depth in a certain position, injuries, contingency/future planning a certain role occupied by a veteran, etc). I do agree that in general terms though it is often easier for 'kids' to get games in rebuilding teams as opposed to contending ones (obviously).

I also think ladder position/wins CAN provide some context/insight into youth performance - it just doesn't work as the sole determinant of the quality of a team's youth as other factors (most notably senior players) also have a significant influence on wins/ladder position.

There is plenty of nuance to be had (and as mentioned, the focus on youth/development/future is typically a greater preoccupation of teams that are 'rebuilding' and struggling to get wins)

 

[citizen-erased]

Not sure Perkins is. Martin definitely.

Martin and Caldwell for me.
And i love Georgie and Cheezel. North took the two lads i wanted with our pick. And George after we took Hayes too

Best of our kids for the year so far and as expected are performing to a higher standard than 2x 1st year players.

This top 10 list will start looking plenty good for North soon though

Larkey, George, Sheezel, Wardlaw, Phillips, Powell....picks 2 and 3 this year assuming McKay nets them band 1.

 

[Roby]

Surely it's obvious even to you why this is a completely flawed and useless comparison.

I had a post removed that you posted yesterday because you didn't want me to pm you, even though I hadn't recently. Full nut job post too.

Why are you still replying to me.. you're just here to troll.

 

[Roby]

I would certainly agree that Norths kids are doing more than their senior players. Not a lot wrong with that statement.

But are they producing better results than Essendon and Adelaide's kids right now? that is a clear no.

It's not a clear no, I posted this before:

Just had a look at players aged 25 and under for total coaches votes for 2023 for each team:

Hawthorn 109
Essendon 105
North 81
Adelaide 79

Surprised to see Essendon so high.. Nic Martin (22) 27 votes and Ridley and Draper who are 25 years old have 19 and 13 respectively.

So that means North's is performing better than Crows. Rankine is taking half the votes for the Crows.

Are the Crows going to win a Premiership in the three three years? If not will Laird, Sloane and Walker still be there? And if so in what capacity? And if not how much experience and talent will they lack after they leave? Interesting questions that we'll know in the future.

And as you can Essendons youth isn't necessarily a level above North's youth. Of course they're likely to get more votes when Essendon has won 6 more games, so you could argue that North's under 25 have performed better considering. North is also a year younger, a lot of Essendon's youth will not be youth in year or two, so this question could be a moot point soon. North still have a lot of development to go, as do the Hawks.

 

[VinnieB]

I had a post removed that you posted yesterday because you didn't want me to pm you, even though I hadn't recently. Full nut job post too.

Why are you still replying to me.. you're just here to troll.

You sent me a creepy message to my personal inbox and then threatened to keep sending me these messages when I suggested you cease if I replied to any of your posts.

I believe you have done this to others. You should be banned. Threats don't make you a tough guy.

 

[1990crow]

You sent me a creepy message to my personal inbox and then threatened to keep sending me these messages when I suggested you cease if I replied to any of your posts.

I believe you have done this to others. You should be banned. Threats don't make you a tough guy.

What a creep.