Who will be better in 2024? Hawthorn or Essendon?

Who will be better in 2024?

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Kane McGoodwin said:
Martin is the best wingman from either side imo.

Gresham & Worpel ahead of McGrath?

Your bench has no 7th defender either.

Should be picking a balanced side.
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Worpel is (easily) ahead of McGrath based on last season IMO. Granted they wouldn't be vying for the same position as McGrath is a capable back pocket, whilst Worpel was one of the leading clearance midfielders in the entire league.

Martin is a gun HFF and a gun wingman. But TBH that was more about placing Day in the starting side, which is warranted IMO. Amon and Martin had similar seasons statistically, but in hindsight I'd swap the two around. It's much of a muchness.

Gresham could easily be replaced by any of the other names under consideration there. I think the team would need another forward realistically, as at least Day could play in the backline if need be.
 
Judd2Sewell said:
Worpel is (easily) ahead of McGrath based on last season IMO. Granted they wouldn't be vying for the same position as McGrath is a capable back pocket, whilst Worpel was one of the leading clearance midfielders in the entire league.
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One an inside mid, one a lock down small defender
Judd2Sewell said:
Martin is a gun HFF and a gun wingman. But TBH that was more about placing Day in the starting side, which is warranted IMO. Amon and Martin had similar seasons statistically, but in hindsight I'd swap the two around. It's much of a muchness.
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Amon was a half back, this extract from the official Hawks website

2023 in Summary: Karl Amon​

Karl Amon was able to provide run and drive across the Hawks half back in his first season in the brown and gold.
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Safe to say most would pick Martin on a wing since he plays, wing.
Judd2Sewell said:
Gresham could easily be replaced by any of the other names under consideration there. I think the team would need another forward realistically, as at least Day could play in the backline if need be.
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Gresham a small forward, Day a mid capable of filling in anywhere else
 
Yoda_ said:
One an inside mid, one a lock down small defender

Amon was a half back, this extract from the official Hawks website


Safe to say most would pick Martin on a wing since he plays, wing.

Gresham a small forward, Day a mid capable of filling in anywhere else
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Are you agreeing with regarding Worpel, McGrath and Day, Gresham? It seems like it.

As I said, in hindsight I'd swap Martin to the wing for Amon. Getting too deep into it here - but I would expect Martin to spend some time playing both HFF if that side was to play, as he's a goal threat running up the field and doubling back.
 

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A mixed 22;

Backline; Andrew McGrath - Ben McKay - Blake Hardwick

Halfback line; Mason Redman - James Sicily - Jordan Ridley

Centreline; Nic Martin - Jai Newcombe - Sam Durham

Half forward line; Luke Breust - Kyle Langford - Jake Stringer**

Forwardline; Peter Wright - Mitch Lewis - Jye Menzies

Followers; Ned Reeves - Zac Merrett - Darcy Parish

I/C(from) Will Day - Jye Caldwell - Karl Amon - **** dunno, probably a versatile KPP able to plat at either end but slim pickings at this stage
 
Yoda_ said:
A mixed 22;

Backline; Andrew McGrath - Ben McKay - Blake Hardwick

Halfback line; Mason Redman - James Sicily - Jordan Ridley

Centreline; Nic Martin - Jai Newcombe - Sam Durham

Half forward line; Luke Breust - Kyle Langford - Jake Stringer**

Forwardline; Peter Wright - Mitch Lewis - Jye Menzies

Followers; Ned Reeves - Zac Merrett - Darcy Parish

I/C(from) Will Day - Jye Caldwell - Karl Amon - **** dunno, probably a versatile KPP able to plat at either end but slim pickings at this stage
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Would love to understand the rationale of Caldwell over either Nash or Worpel.

And both Durham in general and Menzie over Moore.

All of which have clearly outperformed the options you chose.
 
Judd2Sewell said:
Would love to understand the rationale of Caldwell over either Nash or Worpel.

And both Durham in general and Menzie over Moore.

All of which have clearly outperformed the options you chose.
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Menzie over Moore has to be an oversight.
 
Yoda_ said:
A mixed 22;

Backline; Andrew McGrath - Ben McKay - Blake Hardwick

Halfback line; Mason Redman - James Sicily - Jordan Ridley

Centreline; Nic Martin - Jai Newcombe - Sam Durham

Half forward line; Luke Breust - Kyle Langford - Jake Stringer**

Forwardline; Peter Wright - Mitch Lewis - Jye Menzies

Followers; Ned Reeves - Zac Merrett - Darcy Parish

I/C(from) Will Day - Jye Caldwell - Karl Amon - **** dunno, probably a versatile KPP able to plat at either end but slim pickings at this stage
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Really solid effort. As others said Moore in Menzies out. More concerning though is that Sicily is better as the third tall. You really need Blanck or someone for structure, McGrath to the bench. I would also put amon on a wing and Durham to the bench and switch newcombe at merrett's positions. Switch Langford and Lewis as well. But overall I think you have done really well.
 
Judd2Sewell said:
Would love to understand the rationale of Caldwell over either Nash or Worpel.

And both Durham in general and Menzie over Moore.

All of which have clearly outperformed the options you chose.
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Nash and Worpel are both ball getters, Caldwell does the nitty gritty stuff although I am led to believe Connor Nash does that (?)

see below
Blackhawk42 said:
Menzie over Moore has to be an oversight.
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Caligo said:
Really solid effort. As others said Moore in Menzies out. More concerning though is that Sicily is better as the third tall. You really need Blanck or someone for structure, McGrath to the bench. I would also put amon on a wing and Durham to the bench and switch newcombe at merrett's positions. Switch Langford and Lewis as well. But overall I think you have done really well.
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Looking back on this, we could alternatie that back 6 to look like this;

Backline; Andrew McGrath - Ben McKay. - James Sicily

Halfbackline; Mason Redman. - Zach Reid. - Jordan Ridley




7th defender/bench; Blake Hardwick
 
Yoda_ said:
Looking back on this, we could alternatie that back 6 to look like this;

Backline; Andrew McGrath - Ben McKay. - James Sicily

Halfbackline; Mason Redman. - Zach Reid. - Jordan Ridley




7th defender/bench; Blake Hardwick
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Josh weddle over Zach Reid
Jack scrimshaw on the bench. Blake Hardwick is playing forward this season. And if he was playing back, he would be the first player picked in that back 6. He’s much better than Andrew McGrath
 
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Judd2Sewell said:
Would love to understand the rationale of Caldwell over either Nash or Worpel.

And both Durham in general and Menzie over Moore.

All of which have clearly outperformed the options you chose.
Click to expand...
I'd pick Caldwell over Nash and Worpel. I think he is a more damaging and classy mid. In my view, he is primed for a breakout season.
 
Essendon are clearly more advanced with their list build and have more bases covered than Hawthorn. This does not mean they are guaranteed to finish higher but it is more likely.

Hawthorn are hard to read because in almost every ground up rebuild there are ups and downs. Progress is not always linear, it's what builds character. I think they've got a lot of talent but they're still relying on guys with less than 5 years AFL experience to carry their side against more experienced sides. They will have good weeks and bad weeks, it can be hard to be consistent.

In the long run however I reckon they'll be right but for this year specifically I think Essendon will finish higher.
 
Foucault1989 said:
I'd pick Caldwell over Nash and Worpel. I think he is a more damaging and classy mid. In my view, he is primed for a breakout season.
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Won't argue with the classiness, but I'm not sure how you can claim he's more damaging when he hasn't averaged 20 touches a game to date. He's not a clearance winner, a high possession getter or a prolific goal kicker from midfield.

I'm not saying Worpel and Nash are all of those things either mind, as Nash only kicked 1 goal for the year, Worpel kicked 10, whilst Caldwell kicked 11. Though both Nash and Worpel averaged several more touches and more clearances, with Worpel being one of the league leaders.

Granted Caldwell is a year and a half younger than Worpel and two years younger than Nash, and both are going into their 7th seasons whilst Caldwell is going into his 6th - so he may reach the level that both Worpel and Nash did in 2023 over the next year or two.
 
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Judd2Sewell said:
Won't argue with the classiness, but I'm not sure how you can claim he's more damaging when he hasn't averaged 20 touches a game to date. He's not a clearance winner, a high possession getter or a prolific goal kicker from midfield.

I'm not saying Worpel and Nash are all of those things either mind, as Nash only kicked 1 goal for the year, Worpel kicked 10, whilst Caldwell kicked 11. Though both Nash and Worpel averages several more touches and more clearances, with Worpel being one of the league leaders.

Granted Caldwell is a year and a half younger than Worpel and two years younger than Nash, and both are going into their 7th seasons whilst Caldwell is going into his 6th - so he may reach the level that both Worpel and Nash did in 2023 over the next year or two.
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For me it is the eye test that separates Caldwell from Nash and Worpel. He just moves and looks like a class above and I think he will progress over the next couple of years to reach a level or two above those two who will be and are good honest footballers.

Caldwell has also had some injuries on and off so if he gets a good run and continuity I think he'll take his game to greater heights. Looking at the Essendon midfield, he has the highest ceiling.

Edit - when I'm referring to more damaging I'm not just referring to possessions but what he does ball in hand. He has more zip around the contest and I would daresay better skills. He has capacity to play that hybrid inside/outside role whereas Nash and Worpel are dime a dozen inside mids who are valuable but not really unique.
 
Foucault1989 said:
I'd pick Caldwell over Nash and Worpel. I think he is a more damaging and classy mid. In my view, he is primed for a breakout season.
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Will be interesting what his role is.

The other breakout potential is durham. Looking noticably stronger, is training with the mids and won our time trial.
 
citizen-erased said:
Will be interesting what his role is.

The other breakout potential is durham. Looking noticably stronger, is training with the mids and won our time trial.
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Personally I’m hoping Scott moves him into the Daicos HB role. (That Martin has been training in)

Otherwise I think Scott will find it hard to fit both him and Hobbs in the AFL side.
 
Foucault1989 said:
For me it is the eye test that separates Caldwell from Nash and Worpel. He just moves and looks like a class above and I think he will progress over the next couple of years to reach a level or two above those two who will be and are good honest footballers.

Caldwell has also had some injuries on and off so if he gets a good run and continuity I think he'll take his game to greater heights. Looking at the Essendon midfield, he has the highest ceiling.

Edit - when I'm referring to more damaging I'm not just referring to possessions but what he does ball in hand. He has more zip around the contest and I would daresay better skills. He has capacity to play that hybrid inside/outside role whereas Nash and Worpel are dime a dozen inside mids who are valuable but not really unique.
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Yeah I understand what you're saying. Cladwell may have more zip and is certainly a better kick than Worpel (Nash is a pretty good field kick), but Worpel was one of the premier clearance and contested midfielders in the league. That kind of midfielder may be a dime a dozen, but few perform to that level.

I would say Nash is one of the most unique midfielders in the league, given his size and athletic profile.
 
Judd2Sewell said:
Yeah there's no way Hardwick, Langford or Amon are on the bench. If I'm picking a team right now:

Hardwick - McKay - Ridley
Redman - Sicily - CJ

Draper - Zerrett - Duke
Amon - Parish - Day

Moore - Lewis - Martin
Breust - Wright - Langford

Bench: Stringer, Nash, Worpel, Gresham

Unlucky to Scrimshaw, as Ridley is a better player and plays a similar role.

Also in consideration after Scrimshaw (HBF), McGrath (BP), Ward (Wing), Weddle (HBF), Ginnivan (FP), Laverde (KPD).
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You’ll be rethinking your omission of Durham very quickly I reckon. Bias might come into it, but I’m taking McGrath over Hardwick now that he’s settled back there.
 
jdstorm said:
Personally I’m hoping Scott moves him into the Daicos HB role. (That Martin has been training in)

Otherwise I think Scott will find it hard to fit both him and Hobbs in the AFL side.
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Durham is a lock and will be rotating through the midfield. He will be an impact player in every role he plays and has the endurance to switch roles without being benched. He is the player with the highest ceiling of our unfulfilled players with maybe only Perkins is in the same ball park.
 
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