Banter Who will be better in 2024? Carlton or Collingwood?

[Wosh]

Mainly here so we can enjoy the LOLs afterwards at the end of 2023, but also an interesting discussion point.

I’m in genuine two minds and can’t call it, but who do you see finishing higher in 2023?

Who is positioned better from a list/team perspective?

Let the games begin…

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Thank you.

 

[nahnah]

You seem to have separated 2017 Richmond from 2019/2020 Richmond.

I wouldn't have Richmond 2017 as a contender for weakest flag winner, seeing that they were part of a three flags in four years premiership dynasty.

It is unfair to judge Collingwood 2023 then if you’re doing that as our future seasons have not played out, Richmond 2017 snuck into the top 4 and were only a couple wins above 9th. It was a fairly even season

 

[Lunchtime]

Nonsense they won three flags in four years.

Yep. A team winning an away Prelim Final away from state is a good effort.

 

[doppleganger]

Nonsense they won three flags in four years.

So you aren't judging a season in isolation, instead if is form over a few seasons.

Pies were 1point PF losers in 22, so any team that didn't have a close PF result either side of their premiership must be weaker.

Geelong 2022
Melbourne 2020

Whatever your criteria, Pies under Fly have clearly been a strong team.

 

[My Tilly]

Daicos was too good mate.
So many players down on form from both sides was just a game full of errors. Didnt see any premiership teams out there tonight. We arent good enough and neither are the pies .
Simple as that

Collingwood have plenty of upside.
They have yet to really get out third gear. I mean they only scored 4 points in the third quarter.

They are missing their most explosive midfielder.
They showed they had the hunger yesterday against an arch rival. If the hunger is there, they are in it right up to their eyeballs.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Some Carlton fans have jumped off the bandwagon, and have joined the ranks of oppo fans declaring us as frauds.

I will reserve judgement on that until our better players become available for selection.

The reality is that we're in the middle of as tough a five game run of fixtures as it gets, and that we're starting players who are well down the pecking order in terms of selection.

Vossy was rightly awarded a two year extension to his contract imo A flag could possibly be still two years away but i'm good with that.

 

[PizzaPie]

It is unfair to judge Collingwood 2023 then if you’re doing that as our future seasons have not played out, Richmond 2017 snuck into the top 4 and were only a couple wins above 9th. It was a fairly even season

These subjective re-rankings of things we already measure precisely are always stupid, you can just agree on the criteria and compare the numbers and if you can't get past that stage it's already clear you're not even debating the same thing. Might as well be yelling at a fence in that case.

But that aside, I can see some "the whole is better than the sum of its parts" logic being relevant when it comes to Richmond's three from four seasons. With the benefit of hindsight and additional results to draw on, the three seasons that followed Richmond's 2017 flag can only support any argument about the strength of the 2017 side.

And if you insist on engaging in debates where new criteria is introduced in every rebuttal, there's nothing unfair about judging Collingwood's one premiership against any of Richmond's as part of a dynasty, again with that benefit of hindsight. If you want to compare four seasons to four seasons, Collingwood's 2020-2023 is what you have for now. It's not exactly like we're talking about the pending results of a match next weekend... Collingwood might win another 2 between 2024-26, but it's far more probable the next flag will come in the 2030s+ and it's ridiculous to try and frame future maybes as some kind of placeholding equalizer with actual results few other teams have ever achieved.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

All my life Collingwood has owned Carlton and after last night I see no reason why that won't continue. Floreat Pica.

It comes and goes in cycles really. You still only have won three flags in the last sixty odd years. It's hardly the record of a serial flag winning club is it?

Although in terms of flags won in my lifetime it's now Carlton two and Collingwood three but that can be rectified!

Of course you had a serious side in the 20's and 30's back in the days when Squizzy Taylor was roaming the streets of Melbourne.

It's just too bad that it's so far back in the past that no television footage that i know of exists of that Pies team.

 

[Mr Meow]

It comes and goes in cycles really. You still only have won three flags in the last sixty odd years. It's hardly the record of a serial flag winning club is it?

Although in terms of flags won in my lifetime it's now Carlton two and Collingwood three but that can be rectified!

Of course you had a serious side in the 20's and 30's back in the days when Squizzy Taylor was roaming the streets of Melbourne.

It's just too bad that it's so far back in the past that no television footage that i know of exists of that Pies team.

We have to be honest that on an emotional level, only flags won in your lifetime really affect you. Beyond that, generally how competitive your side was. 3 flags and 40 awful years can still feel worse than 2 flags and 40 good years with a few close calls.

It's in no way denying history, but I don't have personal joy from the '63 flags or before.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

We have to be honest that on an emotional level, only flags won in your lifetime really affect you. Beyond that, generally how competitive your side was. 3 flags and 40 awful years can still feel worse than 2 flags and 40 good years with a few close calls.

It's in no way denying history, but I don't have personal joy from the '63 flags or before.

It's not just Carlton here but i take some satisfaction from achievements by the teams i support before i was born or even aware of them.

It's all part of the story and history of the sporting institution in question, it gives the modern-day incarnation of it something to aspire to.

But yes it's just not the same as seeing actual success in person and being in the actual here and now to enjoy it.

 

[Mr Meow]

It's not just Carlton here but i take some satisfaction from achievements by the teams i support before i was born or even aware of them.

It's all part of the story and history of the sporting institution in question, it gives the modern-day incarnation of it something to aspire to.

But yes it's just not the same as seeing actual success in person and being in the actual here and now to enjoy it.

Yeah exactly, it's not about pretending it doesn't exist. Histories exist as they have for every other element. And passing those on generation to generation is very special.

I am just referring to the much more personal sentimental level here. And I think everyone gets that.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

It comes and goes in cycles really. You still only have won three flags in the last sixty odd years. It's hardly the record of a serial flag winning club is it?

Although in terms of flags won in my lifetime it's now Carlton two and Collingwood three but that can be rectified!

Of course you had a serious side in the 20's and 30's back in the days when Squizzy Taylor was roaming the streets of Melbourne.

It's just too bad that it's so far back in the past that no television footage that i know of exists of that Pies team.

There are no cycles for Collingwood, we dominate and go deep in finals in every era, winning is in our DNA

Nice when a battling club rises up to challenge us briefly but it's over, off you go

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Fadge]

There are no cycles for Collingwood, we dominate and go deep in finals in every era, winning is in our DNA

Nice when a battling club rises up to challenge us briefly but it's over, off you go

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Indeed. Averaging better than one Grand Final appearance every three years since the beginning of the VFL/AFL competition - it's been quite the 127 year cycle for Collingwood...

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

There are no cycles for Collingwood, we dominate and go deep in finals in every era, winning is in our DNA

Nice when a battling club rises up to challenge us briefly but it's over, off you go

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I wouldn't say winning is in you DNA with regards to your modern history. Well in terms of grand final success rate anyway, but yes you are a very competitive club.

I think the only decade you failed to make a grand final was back in the 1940's, so yes you are guaranteed to see a team go to the well most years as a Pies fan.

Oh how i long for the Tony Shaw era Collingwood of the mid to late 90's to come back!

As for thinking we're going to slide back into obscurity well all i can say is dream on buddy! We'll see you in the grand final.

 

[The_Anvil]

It comes and goes in cycles really. You still only have won three flags in the last sixty odd years. It's hardly the record of a serial flag winning club is it?

Although in terms of flags won in my lifetime it's now Carlton two and Collingwood three but that can be rectified!

Of course you had a serious side in the 20's and 30's back in the days when Squizzy Taylor was roaming the streets of Melbourne.

It's just too bad that it's so far back in the past that no television footage that i know of exists of that Pies team.

Weren't one of your flags won in a year you were convicted of breaching the salary cap? Not really much of a flag if you have to cheat to win it, is it?

 

[Robertio]

Weren't one of your flags won in a year you were convicted of breaching the salary cap? Not really much of a flag if you have to cheat to win it, is it?

No mate you have it very wrong, never convicted for an offence in a premiership year, you should do a bit more homework.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Weren't one of your flags won in a year you were convicted of breaching the salary cap? Not really much of a flag if you have to cheat to win it, is it?

That was Essendon in 1993 the salary cap punishments were for breaches in 2000 and 2001.

 

[Worm4]

Weren't one of your flags won in a year you were convicted of breaching the salary cap? Not really much of a flag if you have to cheat to win it, is it?

Where do you come up with this information ? I just did a google search of AFL salary cap breach history and its all there for everyone to see. Yes, even Collingwood are listed. No mention of salary cap breaches on 1995 for Carlton. It took me literally 1 minute to find.
Do some research before you put false information on the net . Get informed

 

[31550]

That was Essendon in 1993 the salary cap punishments were for breaches in 2000 and 2001.

Not strictly true. Carlton were fined for salary cap breaches in 93 and again in 94. I think they related to Greg Williams payments made 'under the table'.

The later fine of $930,000 was for systematic breaches of the salary cap relating to several players including Silvagni, Bradley and Brown, all of whom played in the 1995 Premiership year. The fines were not imposed until the 2000s.

 

[jathanas]

That was Essendon in 1993 the salary cap punishments were for breaches in 2000 and 2001.

Correct.

It's impossible to imagine that an upstanding organisation like Carlton would have "worked around" any salary cap rules in years where they weren't caught.

 

[Robertio]

Not strictly true. Carlton were fined for salary cap breaches in 93 and again in 94. I think they related to Greg Williams payments made 'under the table'.

The later fine of $930,000 was for systematic breaches of the salary cap relating to several players including Silvagni, Bradley and Brown, all of whom played in the 1995 Premiership year. The fines were not imposed until the 2000s.

Still no proof we were over in 95, all the years are stated except 95 and i say again we haven't been convicted of any offence in a premiership year.

 

[Robertio]

Correct.

It's impossible to imagine that an upstanding organisation like Carlton would have "worked around" any salary cap rules in years where they weren't caught.

View attachment 1979754

Word around town is that Pies might have been well over the cap in 2010, it's true everyone knows it but i haven't got any proof to show you.

 

[jathanas]

Word around town is that Pies might have been well over the cap in 2010, it's true everyone knows it but i haven't got any proof to show you.

Oh 2010, that's the year you finished 8th. A great result for the Blues.

Much better than 2002, 2005, 2006, 2015, & 2018.

 

[Robertio]

Oh 2010, that's the year you finished 8th. A great result for the Blues.

Much better than 2002, 2005, 2006, 2015, & 2018.

Quick change of the subject, a lot of politicians amongst the Pie supporters.

 

[mcgrath_truther]

i’ve not read any of the mindless squabbling over the last few pages so i apologise if this is a repost, but i think this is an apt summary of the rivalry

 

[jathanas]

Quick change of the subject, a lot of politicians amongst the Pie supporters.

No subject to change. Your chucklesome hypothetical didn't warrant a response.

I do admire your spunk Robertio. Only takes a few weeks of decent footy for Blues fans to find their voice.