Delisted Jack Martin [Selected by Carlton in the PSD]

[Monkey King]

Obviously negotiation tactics aren’t your forte. Preconditioning of position (at the trade table and in the public domain to satisfy the unwashed) is a key tool in negotiation. Just because you don’t have visibility of all the discussion at the trade table doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

There’s no use trying to explain this quite simple concept further to you.

Condescension from a stranger on an anonymous internet forum ... what a treat!

“Just because you haven’t seen a flying purple elephant doesn’t mean they don’t exist” is a fools argument.

There is no evidence that the threat to redraft even exists in modern football outside this situation, let alone that it is employed as an effective negotiating tactic. GCS’ threats certainly didn’t them leverage them a better deal. In fact, they’re at risk being burned by it. So I call shenanigans on your claim and the onus isn’t on me to prove a negative.

 

[Monkey King]

You overate the hell out of Martin

Yeah. I reckon that poster is Martin’s grandma or something. Talks him up like he’s a BnF winning premiership player, rather than an unfulfilled talent who was dropped to the NEAFL last year.

 

[manang magoos]

Exactly what i think about the situation

Good move then hey

 

[David C]

I'd want my club to make better use of that pick 1, Martin would be gone next year anyway.

GC have so many draft picks and extra list spots they can afford to throw one away. No big deal for them. I don't think he'll go to GC in the PSD though. He will either re-sign for one more year leading to FA or go to Carlton/Melbourne in the PSD.

 

[Skull Face]

What have any of your players done in the last 7 years ?

Except for cripps their hasnt been much

Oh and walsh but your only claim to his rising star was you won the spoon so got to pick him .

Salty tears are delicious, so you conceed and result to attacking my club.

I'd say that just about wraps things up, blnt champ.

 

[Taylor]

After 7 years he still hasn't done anything and he almost certainly never will yet you are still keen enough to throw away a future 200 game player for him.

Draftees picked up in the 10-20 range than play 200 games... approximately 12%.

Top ten picks that play 200 games...approximately 26%.

This is why established talent is worth more than a draft pick.

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

Salty tears are delicious, so you conceed and result to attacking my club.

I'd say that just about wraps things up, blnt champ.

Your the one to throw out insults and hanging on my every word .

Seems funny this was you about 20 posts ago

Confirmed troll, welcome to ignore

What happened to this ? Would have made both our lives so much simpler

 

[Taylor]

So which draft is Jack in?

 

[Skull Face]

Draftees picked up in the 10-20 range than play 200 games... approximately 12%.

Top ten picks that play 200 games...approximately 26%.

This is why established talent is worth more than a draft pick.

Jack Martin chance of playing 200 games at current output 0%

 

[Monkey King]

21 - 24 both have their best footy ahead of them .
Martin was clear best talent in his draft year SPS was a reach when you picked him

Recruiters were in awe of SPS’ talent at the champs in his underage year. Had there been a 17yo mini-draft in SPS’ underage year, he’d have likely been taken with pick one like Martin. His top age year was plagued by hamstring injury and he didn’t play champs; wasn’t considered a reach at pick 6, most phantoms had him top 10.

SPS had the better season, playing every game. Ahead on overall stats, but yeah averages are not too different. One guy was an emerging 21yo, the other an established 24yo. If SPS fails to shift gears to a higher level of footy in the next 3 years, he’ll have been a disappointing pick 6 and not worth much more than second rounder in a trade. Sure, that would be a disappointing result for Carlton given the high hopes, but you can’t trade a 25yo on potential.

 

[Jeremias]

Would you value Sam pretrevski seton at a future 2nd and 3rd ?

They are simular players both high picks with simular outputs both with plenty of games ahead of them .

No you would be pissed with the low ball offer

I also belive you have an academy

SPS is contracted through to the end of 2021 and has shown no indication of wanting to leave. So yeah of course I’d be pissed off with an offer of a future 2nd and 3rd.

That’s very different to an uncontracted Martin who has wanted out 2 years in a row, and who has no intention to return to the club.

There’s no comparison. Apples and oranges.

First Yarran. Now SPS. Can we maybe move away from the lazy comparisons made only because they’re indigenous?

 

[Skull Face]

Your the one to throw out insults and hanging on my every word .

Seems funny this was you about 20 posts ago



What happened to this ? Would have made both our lives so much simpler

I gave you a chance to prove you weren't trolling, I take pity on you now as I do believe you actually believe some of the stuff you are sprouting.

You thought a 2nd + 3rd rounder was low balling for martin and I told you i'd expect a 3rd rounder for SPS at 24 if his stats still mirror that of Martins.

You seriously overvalue never has been players, you trade for potential or proven output of which Martin has all but ruled himself out on both fronts making him close to worthless.

Which of these 2 players are you paying more for?

 

[Taylor]

Jack Martin chance of playing 200 games at current output 0%

Chance of player drafted 10-20 playing 100 games... 28%

Change of player drafted 10-20 playing 50 games... 49%

You'd be expecting a few seasons out of Martin, which is going to output better than the stats on players taken 10-20.

That's the reality of players being worth more than picks.

 

[Skull Face]

Chance of player drafted 10-20 playing 100 games... 28%

Change of player drafted 10-20 playing 50 games... 49%

You'd be expecting a few seasons out of Martin, which is going to output better than the stats on players taken 10-20.

That's the reality of players being worth more than picks.

If you want to waste picks in the 10-20 range on players like Martin you will be collecting the next 10 spoons, the last half dozen players we drafted in that range were Cripps, Bokehurst, Mckay, Curnow, O'Brien, Stocker.

If you were in charge of list management you would have crippled our club for an entire decade.

 

[Rich01]

Condescension from a stranger on an anonymous internet forum ... what a treat!

“Just because you haven’t seen a flying purple elephant doesn’t mean they don’t exist” is a fools argument.

There is no evidence that the threat to redraft even exists in modern football outside this situation, let alone that it is employed as an effective negotiating tactic. GCS’ threats certainly didn’t them leverage them a better deal. In fact, they’re at risk being burned by it. So I call shenanigans on your claim and the onus isn’t on me to prove a negative.

Call it what you like. If you take away an ability to keep your player by redrafting them, you lose some leverage on the trading table. I’m not talking about clubs following through and redrafting the player, I’m talking the process of trading and what they get in return. It’s exactly why Dangerfield was traded to Geelong rather than let go as a free agent. And why Cochrane was bleating to the media about Tom Lynch compo. Cochranes pre-conditioning of the public and AFL by crying foul ensured GC would have to obtain top compo for Lynch. Both cases used the threat of keeping their player but only as a negotiation tactic.

 

[Taylor]

If you want to waste picks in the 10-20 range on players like Martin you will be collecting the next 10 spoons, the last 5 players we drafted in that range were Cripps, Bokehurst, Mckay, Curnow, O'Brien.

If you were in charge of list management you would have crippled our club for an entire decade.

If I were in charge of Carlton's football department Carlton would have played finals this season.

The value of a draftee in the 10-20 range needs to be factored into the cost when trading an established talent. A second round pick is great value for a player you expect to play 100 or more games for your club.

This is why I think first round picks, particularly top ten picks, are off the table almost always but second round picks are on the table almost always.

If you always traded your second round pick for a best 22 player who was going to play 100 games for your club rather than taking it to the draft it would only take a few years for you to be well ahead. Granted there will be players taken in that draft that others will point to as missed chances but they will overlook the other 20 players who didn't get their careers off the ground.

 

[Skull Face]

If I were in charge of Carlton's football department Carlton would have played finals this season.

The value of a draftee in the 10-20 range needs to be factored into the cost when trading an established talent. A second round pick is great value for a player you expect to play 100 or more games for your club.

This is why I think first round picks, particularly top ten picks, are off the table almost always but second round picks are on the table almost always.

If you always traded your second round pick for a best 22 player who was going to play 100 games for your club rather than taking it to the draft it would only take a few years for you to be well ahead. Granted there will be players taken in that draft that others will point to as missed chances but they will overlook the other 20 players who didn't get their careers off the ground.

So ignore what I post and respond with unrelated rubbish, good day.

 

[Robertio]

Call it what you like. If you take away an ability to keep your player by redrafting them, you lose some leverage on the trading table. I’m not talking about clubs following through and redrafting the player, I’m talking the process of trading and what they get in return. It’s exactly why Dangerfield was traded to Geelong rather than let go as a free agent. And why Cochrane was bleating to the media about Tom Lynch compo. Cochranes pre-conditioning of the public and AFL by crying foul ensured GC would have to obtain top compo for Lynch. Both cases used the threat of keeping their player but only as a negotiation tactic.

We offered more than what GC would get in FA compensation on his current output.

 

[Taylor]

So ignore what I post and respond with unrelated rubbish, good day.

When the stats are inconvenient for you, sure.

If you're getting a player who will play 100 games for your club then you're doing better than the club who gets a draft pick in the 10-20 range by over three times.

AFL football is about getting talent on the park, draft picks are very very risky.

 

[Iva Bigun]

The smart money that has The Demons linked to Harley Bennell would suggest Melbourne know Martin has zero interest in playing for them

Also that Geelong rumour is almost certainty made up nonsense (or the person who posted it got some bad intel).


I believe by the 2nd week of November we will know Martin's intentions (of nominating for National Draft, which I think is the cut off date for nominating for the ND)

Amuses me greatly why people are painting Carlton as the Villains here, they sound like we are back to our villainous Salary Cap ways, the Suns and Tones Cochrane have come across as pretty damn oily passing on the blame on Carlton for the failure of the trade if you ask me, and before Gold Coast fans jump down my throat, can you honestly say that is not what happened ?.?

I think the 3rd party club supporters on this thread have made it pretty clear who they think is to blame for this situation.

and as previously mentioned Cochrane had NO input into the Suns stance on Martin. It was and is a no brainer, we just signed 3 academy and zone kids for free the picks offered where never going to get the deal done.

for what it’s worth I think he will end up at Carlton but if I was the Demons I would pick him up, either way I don’t want him back

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

I gave you a chance to prove you weren't trolling, I take pity on you now as I do believe you actually believe some of the stuff you are sprouting.

You thought a 2nd + 3rd rounder was low balling for martin and I told you i'd expect a 3rd rounder for SPS at 24 if his stats still mirror that of Martins.

You seriously overvalue never has been players, you trade for potential or proven output of which Martin has all but ruled himself out on both fronts making him close to worthless.

Which of these 2 players are you paying more for?

Paying more in salary or draft picks ?

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

I

Recruiters were in awe of SPS’ talent at the champs in his underage year. Had there been a 17yo mini-draft in SPS’ underage year, he’d have likely been taken with pick one like Martin. His top age year was plagued by hamstring injury and he didn’t play champs; wasn’t considered a reach at pick 6, most phantoms had him top 10.

SPS had the better season, playing every game. Ahead on overall stats, but yeah averages are not too different. One guy was an emerging 21yo, the other an established 24yo. If SPS fails to shift gears to a higher level of footy in the next 3 years, he’ll have been a disappointing pick 6 and not worth much more than second rounder in a trade. Sure, that would be a disappointing result for Carlton given the high hopes, but you can’t trade a 25yo on potential.

I dont remember SPS being top 6 at all until the draft night .
We were hoping for him at 12 on our board until about the month before the draft .

Martin was definitely the best under ager .

So the premise of my arguement about martin is that both WA teams would have martin in their best 22 and think he would be worth a late 1st rounder in trade .

He would be in your 10-15 best players with a good 6 years 100+ games bar injury .

If your inside mids could supply him he would improve his output but is more of the 18-20 touch but damaging ball in hand player .

Most neutral fans belive that carlton purposly low balled GC to force him into PSD to get him free .

Dick move by carlton and martin .

If it was a vic club being extorted like this their would be uproar but its GC and the VFL media doesn't give a s**t . A strong carlton is more important to them and the AFL

 

[Foucault1989]

I
I dont remember SPS being top 6 at all until the draft night .
We were hoping for him at 12 on our board until about the month before the draft .

Martin was definitely the best under ager .

So the premise of my arguement about martin is that both WA teams would have martin in their best 22 and think he would be worth a late 1st rounder in trade .

He would be in your 10-15 best players with a good 6 years 100+ games bar injury .

If your inside mids could supply him he would improve his output but is more of the 18-20 touch but damaging ball in hand player .

Most neutral fans belive that carlton purposly low balled GC to force him into PSD to get him free .

Dick move by carlton and martin .

If it was a vic club being extorted like this their would be uproar but its GC and the VFL media doesn't give a s**t . A strong carlton is more important to them and the AFL

Callum Twomey's 2016 Phantom Draft

Draft guru Callum Twomey reveals his top 30 and club whispers

m.afl.com.au

Twomey had him at pick 6

Knightmare's 2016 AFL phantom draft

With the football season and AFL trade period over, ESPN.com.au AFL draft expert Christopher Doerre - aka Knightmare - has unveiled his first phantom draft for 2016.

www.espn.com.au

Knightmare had him at pick 8

 

[Robertio]

I
I dont remember SPS being top 6 at all until the draft night .
We were hoping for him at 12 on our board until about the month before the draft .

Martin was definitely the best under ager .

So the premise of my arguement about martin is that both WA teams would have martin in their best 22 and think he would be worth a late 1st rounder in trade .

He would be in your 10-15 best players with a good 6 years 100+ games bar injury .

If your inside mids could supply him he would improve his output but is more of the 18-20 touch but damaging ball in hand player .

Most neutral fans belive that carlton purposly low balled GC to force him into PSD to get him free .

Dick move by carlton and martin .

If it was a vic club being extorted like this their would be uproar but its GC and the VFL media doesn't give a s**t . A strong carlton is more important to them and the AFL

Rules are rules and all clubs have been manipulating them since the draft came in. Your posts sound like sour grapes because he knocked Freo back.

 

[Monkey King]

I dont remember SPS being top 6 at all until the draft night .
Martin was definitely the best under ager .

Most neutral fans belive that carlton purposly low balled GC to force him into PSD to get him free.

Search the phantom drafts, the AFL’s or the D&T board here on BF. SPS wasn’t out of the top 10 in any of the main contributors lists. Sorry about your memory, but you are objectively mistaken.

“He’s the best kid I’ve ever seen at that age” was the quote from one recruiter on the underage SPS. You’re entitled to an opinion, but your efforts to project this as fact are misguided.

That’s funny. Every footy fan I’ve spoken to about this off BF considered it a fair offer. The media reports indicate the industry rating of Martin was pretty similar too. I think you’re telling conspiracy porkies.