Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[Engimal v3]

Your team's profits will pay off North Melbourne and those debts. Engimal v3 and Chadwiko and ferball will laugh at you LoL

I think we've been laughing at him for a while

 

[seasonedsainter]

People (and Ross) will tell you he has changed, but not really.

As you say, with defense first coaches like Ross - no matter the sport- their beliefs are pathological.

Sadly, what those in charge of the Saints fail to realise is that pathologically defensive coaches are dying in world sport. Rule-makers everywhere, obsessed with ratings and entertainment in a crowded sporting market, combined with the specter of concussion, have made it so.

An example of the type of coach that succeeds in modern AFL is Adam Kingsley. He started his coaching journey last year in pretty ordinary fashion, playing a dour style.

But he had the ability, halfway through the year, to work out they style of play that would work in today’s game (precise, quick ball movement and handling, constant movement of players to provide options and training of players to choose correct decisions) pivot, and train his team to play in a different way.

Very impressive stuff and almost got his team to a grand final off half a year of footy. Now THAT is impressive coaching.

Compare that to Lyon. Came back into the comp muttering about how the game has changed and how his teams would be “quicker” to suit it.

But what does “quick” mean to a coach like Lyon? It’s just throwing more men behind the ball more quickly, and then counter attacking more quickly. He fundamentally misunderstands that speed of ball movement and decision-making trumps actual physical speed.

The end result is in 2024 Ross Lyon teams are the same as ever. Skills still lacking, hack-kicks to no one still the norm, “effort” over skill and decision-making still emphasized.

Will the Saints bring better, more consistent effort than other teams with Ross at the helm? Probably I’d say. He’s a strong personality who will be uncompromising in getting his group tackling and running defensively.

But in 2024 and beyond, when ball movement and decision-making will be the key factor in separating contenders from also-rans in the league, does effort and tackling cover for poor execution of skills?

100% no.

Ross was borderline yesterday’s man at the end of his Dockers tenure. The more you see of this iteration of Ross, the more you see that, outside the odd flashes of fast counter-attacking flair, his teams and style are no different, and even more irrelevant, than they’ve ever been.

Definitely not a time to give a coach like him unlimited power, like the Saints have.

Dark times ahead.

In terms of your description of what Kingsley did in the 2nd half of last year, you make it sound like the Coach is playing a video game and the players have nothing to do with it, FFS give it a rest, it's Rnd 1, you're known Ross hater from the Saints board because of your "informed opinions" from your "sports psychologist friend" from memory.

This game is played at an extremely fast pace where skill and split second decisions are vital, I think you'll find the most crucial factor to a team's success are the 22 blokes out on the field. And natural footballing ability is not something you can just magically instill. I would suggest you might look at what Green & Co did last year for the Giants to get them to the Prelim, best on-field leader in the game bar none.

Also to actually suggest a senior AFL coach doesn't know that a kicked ball can move faster than a running man is ludicrous beyond belief.

Not to say I wasn't impressed with Kingsley when we had him, but my suggestion would getting a wee grip before going off the deep end after Rnd 1.

 

[PJays]

Lyon will always have his haters. But his results speak for themselves.

St Kilda is playing one of the youngest teams in the league right now (NWM, Owens, Poo, Byrnes, Henry, Wilson, Collard, Windhager all 22 or under and played last weekend).

How many clubs have 8 players 22 or under and nobody over 30 in their best 22?

This St Kilda group will start peaking from 2025 - 2026 based on the age profile. With established guns Marshall, Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie, Membrey still playing at a high level or still in their primes. Plus King who's entering his prime. And those young players will have 3 - 4 years experience and many will be contributing strongly.

Whether we'll be good enough to contend for a flag, nobody can predict. But things are bloody hard for small clubs who play out of marvel. And right now, Saints fans should be relatively happy with where we’re at.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Again, agree.

A lot of Saints fans are being hoodwinked by Ross talking about us being a team with “speed”.

But this means he just drafts and trades for fast blokes, becomes even more defensive and gets more men behind the ball more quickly, and then tries to get these fast blokes to hit teams on the counter-attack.

He hasn’t really changed his coaching philosophy at all.

The skills are still hap-hazard, and he still doesn’t have the football brain to work out “speed” is only significant if it is speed of ball movement (you can move the ball much quicker kicking than running, so should always prioritize skills over athletic ability. That’s what the leading teams in world sport have been doing for the past few years now).

It’s incredibly frustrating how our team is yet again behind the curve when it comes to tactics and how many of our fans are blindly following the cult of Lyon.

Lyon was a busted flush at Freo by the end of his tenure. He’s tried to re-jig his philosophy by empahsing “speed” at the Saints but, as I said, has done it lazily by just drafting and trading for quick blokes instead of having the ability to formulate and train his players to execute a gameplan that emphasizes speed of ball-movement and skill rather than defense and tackling.

Lyon as a coach philosophically is so far behind the pack in our sport now it’s not funny. And we’ve signed the bloke up for years and given him unlimited power.

Yeah he’s so bad that despite his team being decimated by injuries last year (especially in the forward line) and widely tipped to finish bottom 4, he had them in the top 6 for all bar one week of the H&A season (where they dropped down to 7th).

Do the maths.

Supposedly below average list + smashed by injuries to boot + poor, outdated coaching, does not = top 6 virtually all year.

That suggestion defies all common sense and logic.

 

[aussierulesrules]

your entry (and accuracy though that's true for both sides) was pretty s**t tonight.

the suffocation that ross relies on only works if the opposition play into it, which geelong didn't do, you gave them pastures to work with tonight

Last year we were 18th in the comp for converting inside 50’s to scores, yet on the weekend we had 28 shots at goal from just 44 entries. A 63% efficiency.

Only two other teams have gone at higher than 52% this year, and they are both potential top 4 teams, against the two worst teams in recent memory.

Port went at a whopping 70% v West Coast on the weekend and GWS went at 61% v Norths decimated backline.

So for us to go at 63% against one of the better backlines in the league (especially the Stewart/DeKoening/Henry part) at a narrow ground they’re great at defending at, is a damn good effort, I would have thought. And a huge step up from being the worst at that last year.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Lyon will always have his haters. But his results speak for themselves.

St Kilda is playing one of the youngest teams in the league right now (NWM, Owens, Poo, Byrnes, Henry, Wilson, Collard, Windhager all 22 or under and played last weekend).

How many clubs have 8 players 22 or under and nobody over 30 in their best 22?

This St Kilda group will start peaking from 2025 - 2026 based on the age profile. With established guns Marshall, Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie, Membrey still playing at a high level or still in their primes. Plus King who's entering his prime. And those young players will have 3 - 4 years experience and many will be contributing strongly.

Whether we'll be good enough to contend for a flag, nobody can predict. But things are bloody hard for small clubs who play out of marvel. And right now, Saints fans should be relatively happy with where we’re at.

Do you believe Marshall, Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie and Membrey are a talented enough senior core for a premiership? All good and well having the right age profile but other clubs looking to come into contention around that time would have a deeper pool of A graders and match winners. Is Membrey really an “established gun” that could be relied upon in a premiership tilt?

 

[aussierulesrules]

Lost to Geelong by 8 points down there. They’ll be thereabouts but need to cover some gaps etc. Geelong will be the same. Will get exposed away from KP a bit.

Well that’s pretty understandable given the fact we were missing as many as 7 of our best 22/23. (Geelong were missing just 3).

Our midfield in particular was decimated. Sinclair, Clark, Jones and Dow all unavailable for selection by the looks of it, then we had Crouch who went in very underdone (zero practice matches), and had just 15 disposals, while Windhager had played just 15 minutes of a practice match. While Seb Ross had a ‘mare.

Hopefully that will be by far the weakest/most underdone midfield we’ll put out there all year.

We’re also really missing Butler so far this year. By far our best pressure forward and came 2nd in the goalkicking with 33 last year to boot. Due to return via the VFL this week.

We’ll have most bases covered within a couple of weeks if we don’t get any significant injuries in the meantime.

 

[PJays]

Do you believe Marshall, Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie and Membrey are a talented enough senior core for a premiership?

No, I don't

You forgot King and Wanganeen-Milera- who look like superstars in the making. King might already be there if he hadn't missed half of 2023.

Plus Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Wilson, look promising.

If 3 or 4 of those 6 become genuine star players - which looks very possible- then we might have 6 or 8 stars instead of 3 or 4 that we have now.

Lots has to go right, absolutely.

But St Kilda looks closer to a premiership tilt (within 2-3 years) than we have in the past 11 or 12 years. There's a realistic pathway ahead.

 

[aussierulesrules]

No, I don't

You forgot King and Wanganeen-Milera- who look like superstars in the making. King might already be there if he hadn't missed half of 2023.

Plus Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Wilson, look promising.

If 3 or 4 of those 6 become genuine star players - which looks very possible- then we might have 6 or 8 stars instead of 3 or 4 that we have now.

Lots has to go right, absolutely.

But St Kilda looks closer to a premiership tilt (within 2-3 years) than we have in the past 11 or 12 years. There's a realistic pathway ahead.

We’re also said to be one of the teams with the biggest “war chests” in the comp.

So if we do improve- as we easily could with all those young guys you spoke of- we could potentially be a top 6 club with cap space to burn.

According to Ross we’re likely to look to hit the draft again this year then have a big crack at FA next year.

 

[PJays]

We’re also said to be one of the teams with the biggest “war chests” in the comp.

So if we do improve- as we easily could with all those young guys you spoke of- we could potentially be a top 6 club with cap space to burn.

According to Ross we’re likely to look to hit the draft again this year then have a big crack at FA next year.

I think Hill's contract expires end of next year. He's one of the most overpaid players in the comp, so shedding his contract alone will work wonders for our overall position.

So if the young group keeps improving, and we bring in a gun FA, before Wilkie and Marshall etc get too old, we might be a contender in 2 years time.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I think Hill's contract expires end of next year. He's one of the most overpaid players in the comp, so shedding his contract alone will work wonders for our overall position.

So if the young group keeps improving, and we bring in a gun FA, before Wilkie and Marshall etc get too old, we might be a contender in 2 years time.

I think that would be the plan. Hopefully continued improvement from King, Owens, Wangmil, Phillipou, Henry, Windhager, Wilson, Caminiti, Collard etc, over the next couple of years, and then that group are coming into or are in the prime, while the old guys are still going well, and hopefully add a gun FA or two.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yeah he’s so bad that despite his team being decimated by injuries last year (especially in the forward line) and widely tipped to finish bottom 4, he had them in the top 6 for all bar one week of the H&A season (where they dropped down to 7th).

Do the maths.

Supposedly below average list + smashed by injuries to boot + poor, outdated coaching, does not = top 6 virtually all year.

That suggestion defies all common sense and logic.

Because Ross Lyon tactics defies the odds LoL

 

[NetworkNerd]

Gifted Collingwood a MCG away game and still got the chocolates.

Def top 6 contenders

 

[Taper]

Gifted Collingwood a MCG away game and still got the chocolates.

Def top 6 contenders

True. People were quick to write the Saints off last week when they were unlucky to just fall short on the road against a pretty good side.

 

[Blue1980]

True. People were quick to write the Saints off last week when they were unlucky to just fall short on the road against a pretty good side.

I thought they were pretty good last week in a game that could have gone either way.

One thing I noticed was work rate and pressure was way higher in that game than anything pies had shown and thought pies had to improve significantly to beat the saints and didn’t think they could make up the gap in a week.

Was proven right. Saints are a good side, I think they will most likely play finals unless derailed by injury.

 

[Freomaniac]

Do you believe Marshall, Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie and Membrey are a talented enough senior core for a premiership? All good and well having the right age profile but other clubs looking to come into contention around that time would have a deeper pool of A graders and match winners. Is Membrey really an “established gun” that could be relied upon in a premiership tilt?

If Tonights win over the magpies is anything to go by then yes.

Saints won the Free kick count 30 to 14. Then you have Ross Lyon tactics to fight against too.

I would be shocked if the saints dont win the flag in 2024. lol

 

[Plugger35]

We just beat the reigning premiers in convincing style.

We have stormed out of no man's land and charged the Collingwood trenches like the lighthorsemen did back in WW1 for a famous victory.

Too quick and too good.

We should get Anzac Day after that brave performance tonight.

 

[Blue1980]

We just beat the reigning premiers in convincing style.

We have stormed out of no man's land and charged the Collingwood trenches like the lighthorsemen did back in WW1 for a famous victory.

Too quick and too good.

We should get Anzac Day after that brave performance tonight.

I think the tigers are the new brave ones after last Thursday.

 

[Reb_Soss]

No.... But with Ross Lyon as coach in 2024, I can see the saints making another grand final in 5 years

Why can you see a gf but think a flag is out reach? Surely if you can get there you’ve got a chance??


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Verdun]

No, I don't

You forgot King and Wanganeen-Milera- who look like superstars in the making. King might already be there if he hadn't missed half of 2023.

Plus Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Wilson, look promising.

If 3 or 4 of those 6 become genuine star players - which looks very possible- then we might have 6 or 8 stars instead of 3 or 4 that we have now.

Lots has to go right, absolutely.

But St Kilda looks closer to a premiership tilt (within 2-3 years) than we have in the past 11 or 12 years. There's a realistic pathway ahead.

Yep Wanganeen- Milera says hi!!


As you say he has been a superstar in the making - he announced himself against the Pies.

Supporters from other clubs do not understand or want to the time put into the kids - NWM, Pou, Owens, Windhager and I would include Wilson have huge upside.

Should this thread name be changed?? Have a couple of proposals....

 

[Foucault1989]

I actually rate St Kilda and enjoy watching them play.....fight me

 

[PJays]

What a start to the season by St Kilda.

- played in front of 40k at Kardinia- largest crowd since 1981, and 70k at the G. Televised night games in front of packed houses. Valuable experience

- played the last 2 premiers, both at near full- strength. One nail biting loss and one confident victory

- Playing loads of youth

- First round pick Wilson looks like he belongs. Recruit Henry looks solid

- last night- NWM best-on, Owens and Byrne's very influential. Windhager did alright in the centre square

Things haven't looked this positive at StKilda for a very very long time

And it's also game style under Lyon. It's a brand that looks capable of standing up in finals. We defend hard, we're competitive most of the game, most weeks

The results under Ratts were decent on paper (6th with finals win, then 10th and 10th with very difficult fixtures) but the style didn't endear me with the same confidence

We've been blown out once in 26 games under Lyon. There's a consistent application of effort that didn't exist previously.

Loving this. It feels like we could be building towards something very good- maybe this year, but maybe in 2025 or 26 as this crop of young players keeps improving.

 

[PJays]

Tough wash-up for Saints

Wood broken collarbone
Henry bad hammy
King suspension

Rough.

And how's the AFL?

King brushed past someone, raised his elbow somewhat and made innocuous contact....gets a week!

Meanwhile Brayden Maynard

4

Brayden Maynard

Age

27

Ht

189cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

11.6

4star

HB

5.9

4star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.6

5star

MG

327.8

4star

D

20.7

5star

K

14.0

5star

HB

6.7

4star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.0

4star

MG

417.4

5star

D

13.8

4star

K

8.6

4star

HB

5.2

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.6

5star

MG

205.8

4star

ended a guys career. Gets off and wins a flag

The AFL's consistency is about the level of a hungry, tired 3 year-old child.

Ok so they're protecting the head this year. Good move.

But we don't need to rename the competition. It's not the ATFL- Australian Touch Football League.

 

[Jeremias]

What a start to the season by St Kilda.

1-1.

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, shall we?

 

[aussierulesrules]

1-1.

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, shall we?

That part might have had a bit of mayo on it, but our form is looking better by the minute, given how Geelong are wiping the floor with Adelaide, in Adelaide. Despite fielding a significantly weaker team than they did against us (no Duncan, Atkins, or Bruhn, which is a big chunk of their midfield).

I wasn’t too disappointed that we lost last week, as it looked to me like two good teams going hammer and tongs, and that whoever lost would win plenty of games for the remainder of the year.