Traded Adam Saad [traded to Carlton with #48 and #78 for #8 and #87]

Who won this trade?

  • Essendon

    Votes: 10 35.7%

  • Carlton

    Votes: 18 64.3%
  • Total voters
    28

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TheKITC said:
You asked if "any Essendon supporter in this has genuinely said they think we'll get 7 in a straight swap" and I provided multiple examples of where that has occurred. Anyone that has read most of thread knows there are plenty more. And it's not all 30 pages ago, like I've pointed out. So who is really being disingenuous?

I don't care what types of trolling may or may not be going on, you're a moderator not me. What's that got to do with what I'm posting?
Click to expand...

In my post I specifically said Welcome pick 7.

I didn't state the whole trade or anything like that so get off it.
 

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TheKITC said:
You asked if "any Essendon supporter in this has genuinely said they think we'll get 7 in a straight swap" and I provided multiple examples of where that has occurred. Anyone that has read most of thread knows there are plenty more. And it's not all 30 pages ago, like I've pointed out. So who is really being disingenuous?

I don't care what types of trolling may or may not be going on, you're a moderator not me. What's that got to do with what I'm posting?
Click to expand...
Yes, I asked the question, and it turns out the premise of my question was inaccurate, Essendon supporters did say something along that line, 12 days and 800 posts ago. No one has been able to progress the conversation since then.

I would suggest that now that we've established that hardly any Essendon supporters are saying this, continuing to state that as a fact will be considered baiting and treated accordingly.

If you'd like to know why some specific person said something, quote their post and ask them about it.
 
Lore said:
Yes, I asked the question, and it turns out the premise of my question was inaccurate, Essendon supporters did say something along that line, 12 days and 800 posts ago. No one has been able to progress the conversation since then.

I would suggest that now that we've established that hardly any Essendon supporters are saying this, continuing to state that as a fact will be considered baiting and treated accordingly.

If you'd like to know why some specific person said something, quote their post and ask them about it.
Click to expand...

Except that it hasn't all been 12 days and '800' pages ago (thread only has 185 pages) and it isn't 'hardly any' saying it at all...

Far be it for me to suggest anything in relation to moderating, but don't think it's unreasonable to say that plenty of Essendon posters have suggested pick 7 would be done in a straight swap for Saad and it isn't a 'strawman troll' at all.

I do agree that directly quoting people is the way to go. Unfortunately I have had many fruitless attempts at doing this, where the posters obviously don't like what I've said and continue on posting despite me stating or posing reasonable queries. Thems the brakes I guess.
 
TheKITC said:
Except that it hasn't all been 12 days and '800' pages ago (thread only has 185 pages) and it isn't 'hardly any' saying it at all...
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35 pages, 800 posts, was a typo which I corrected though you might've quoted me before I edited. Guess I wasn't quick enough 🤣

TheKITC said:
Far be it for me to suggest anything in relation to moderating, but don't think it's unreasonable to say that plenty of Essendon posters have suggested pick 7 would be done in a straight swap for Saad and it isn't a 'strawman troll' at all.

I do agree that directly quoting people is the way to go. Unfortunately I have had many fruitless attempts at doing this, where the posters obviously don't like what I've said and continue on posting despite me stating or posing reasonable queries. Thems the brakes I guess.
Click to expand...
Yeah well we'll stick to direct quoting for now and if you have any other issues feel free to PM me :)
 
Lore said:
I think we all know pick 7 will be involved, commenting on that doesn't mean we are expecting a straight swap. Fridge and Reload are both on the record saying that it won't be a straight swap.
Click to expand...

In reality this whole thread is a meaningless pissing contest.

In the cold hard light, Carlton knew Dodoro would behave like an utter knob when they made the decision to target Saad.

Little surprise that Dodoro is behaving like an utter knob.

The real value of 7 or 8 or 10 or whatever it is, is entirely dependent on what other moves Carlton have in mind over the next few weeks. On face value it is overs, But not massive. The general consensus among rational commentators when the news hit the street was late first or early second. Not that much difference.

What nobody here has factored in is how different this draft will be. I would suggest that there is a fair idea on the evidence available who the top few are. After that, nobody has a clue. And we will have yet to be announced list reductions making speculative picks not so attractive.

So I'd suggest that a second or third back might only be an additional opportunity to throw darts at a board while blindfolded. I don't think any club is going to be all that enthusiastic about strengthening their mid draft hand this year.
 
eDPS said:
“I wouldn’t think there’s too many half backs that have been traded to other clubs for a top 10 pick.

“Then I look at Essendon and I look at Saad and how important he is to Essendon. He’s finished top four in their best and fairest the last three years, so he’s a bona fide top four player at that football club.
Click to expand...
He isn’t Hurn or Whitfield or Houli. Not an AA so he isn’t in the elite half backs. He’s may be very good but not elite. It’s not Carltons fault you have non elite players in your top 4 best players
 
chelseacarlton said:
He’ll be 27 in 2021, 26 in 2020, how have I altered reality?
I’m not decreasing perceived value, just applying logic.
We are not getting a 26 year old player in 2021.
Twisted logic is a decent half back flanker, with quality line breaking abilities going from a pick 35 future second round pick, to pick 7!
What do you think he is worth?
Click to expand...
Just like his contract apparently has no bearing on the pick then what we picked him up for has to have no bearing also, most sensible Essendon posters have said mid-late first rounder.
 
Lore said:
There's certainly been plenty of "Saad for a 2nd round or PSD" as well, but that's about as likely as "7 and a player".
Click to expand...

Lets be fair here Lore. Now the more reasonable Essendon do indeed say pick 7 with something coming back. Likewise, the more reasonable Carlton supporters say pick 2 with a player.

But this is what differentiates, whatever player a Carlton supporter suggests outside of an untouchable is rubbished because apparently there are so few holes on your list that unless its one of KPP or Walsh its not worth discussing. Essendon posters dont want to entertain promising young players unless theyve already got media hype.

Wheres the middle ground? Saad is uncontracted and has been given a clip by Essendon on his way out. Is the Essendon really so ready to go that they cant accept a solid player rather than a blue chip player?
 
Brutalitops said:
Essendon posters dont want to entertain promising young players unless theyve already got media hype.
Click to expand...
I’ve been fighting the good fight for Paddy Dow, I can’t seem to get through to them :(
 

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reload141 said:
In my post I specifically said Welcome pick 7.

I didn't state the whole trade or anything like that so get off it.
Click to expand...
reload141 said:
You literally have no idea what you're saying do you?

A backpedal is if I said "Saad for pick 7 straight up. Easy trade. Done"

Do you even know what backpedal means?
Click to expand...


back-pedal
/ˌbakˈpɛd(ə)l/

verb: backpedal

reverse one's previous action or opinion.

It would appear you have reversed your previous opinion have you not?

It's no longer "Welcome pick 7"
It's now "Welcome pick 7 in whatever form the whole trade is but definitely not straight up"
 
Brutalitops said:
Lets be fair here Lore. Now the more reasonable Essendon do indeed say pick 7 with something coming back. Likewise, the more reasonable Carlton supporters say pick 2 with a player.

But this is what differentiates, whatever player a Carlton supporter suggests outside of an untouchable is rubbished because apparently there are so few holes on your list that unless its one of KPP or Walsh its not worth discussing. Essendon posters dont want to entertain promising young players unless theyve already got media hype.

Wheres the middle ground? Saad is uncontracted and has been given a clip by Essendon on his way out. Is the Essendon really so ready to go that they cant accept a solid player rather than a blue chip player?
Click to expand...
It’s interesting your rate Saad as just a solid player, I rate him higher but it’s an opinion business, not personal has lots of people take it, but are you happy to pay a “solid player” a 5 year deal on decent money? This isn’t a crack, he fills a need for you guys and will be a good player.
 
FrankGrimes said:
Just like his contract apparently has no bearing on the pick then what we picked him up for has to have no bearing also, most sensible Essendon posters have said mid-late first rounder.
Click to expand...
Your first few points are gibberish, your last is 👍
 
FrankGrimes said:
It’s interesting your rate Saad as just a solid player, I rate him higher but it’s an opinion business, not personal has lots of people take it, but are you happy to pay a “solid player” a 5 year deal on decent money? This isn’t a crack, he fills a need for you guys and will be a good player.
Click to expand...

Where did I say Saad is only a solid player? Hes a gun. Hes uncontracted and was given a clip on his way out. As a result hes come out said hes happy to walk to the draft.

Pick 27 plus a solid or promising player is fair compensation. Two second round picks is fair compensation.
 
Brutalitops said:
Where did I say Saad is only a solid player? Hes a gun. Hes uncontracted and was given a clip on his way out. As a result hes come out said hes happy to walk to the draft.

Pick 27 plus a solid or promising player is fair compensation. Two second round picks is fair compensation.
Click to expand...
chelseacarlton said:
Your first few points are gibberish, your last is 👍
Click to expand...
Sorry misread your post, thought you said Saad was solid, my bad
 
Brutalitops said:
Lets be fair here Lore. Now the more reasonable Essendon do indeed say pick 7 with something coming back. Likewise, the more reasonable Carlton supporters say pick 2 with a player.

But this is what differentiates, whatever player a Carlton supporter suggests outside of an untouchable is rubbished because apparently there are so few holes on your list that unless its one of KPP or Walsh its not worth discussing. Essendon posters dont want to entertain promising young players unless theyve already got media hype.

Wheres the middle ground? Saad is uncontracted and has been given a clip by Essendon on his way out. Is the Essendon really so ready to go that they cant accept a solid player rather than a blue chip player?
Click to expand...
Does it count as a clip if the guy who apparently said it has lost his job 🤔

We need KPFs that are better than James Stewart, KPDs that are more experienced than Brandon Zerk-Thatcher to match up on your Hawkins types, taller wingers that can take a mark with good disposal that will get a game ahead of Snelling and the other sub-6' wingers, and small defenders that can both lockdown and rebound to replace Saad, McKenna and Fantasia as we currently only have Walla and McGrath (and possibly an Irish kid) that could match up on a Charlie Cameron type. Got any of those you'd be willing to part with?

We also need a big inside mid who is good enough to push Smith, Walla and potentially Stringer out of the midfield. We have other bigger inside mid types on the list and haven't used them in that position, it seems we prefer having three talented smalls over a less talented big and two talented smalls. Langford and Heppell also occasionally attend centre bounces but probably shouldn't imo unless tagging or similar, they're tall but they're not bulls. On that front, it looks like we have Josh Dunkley and possibly Seb Ross in our sights, so I'm not sure how much interest we'll have in Carlton's midfield depth.

It also depends on what those players want of course, they might not be a good fit for Essendon for whatever reason. Not that we can really judge that as it hasn't been made public afaik.
 
Lore said:
Does it count as a clip if the guy who apparently said it has lost his job 🤔

We need KPFs that are better than James Stewart, KPDs that are more experienced than Brandon Zerk-Thatcher to match up on your Hawkins types, taller wingers that can take a mark with good disposal that will get a game ahead of Snelling and the other sub-6' wingers, and small defenders that can both lockdown and rebound to replace Saad, McKenna and Fantasia as we currently only have Walla and McGrath (and possibly an Irish kid) that could match up on a Charlie Cameron type. Got any of those you'd be willing to part with?

We also need a big inside mid who is good enough to push Smith, Walla and potentially Stringer out of the midfield. We have other bigger inside mid types on the list and haven't used them in that position, it seems we prefer having three talented smalls over a less talented big and two talented smalls. Langford and Heppell also occasionally attend centre bounces but probably shouldn't imo unless tagging or similar, they're tall but they're not bulls. On that front, it looks like we have Josh Dunkley and possibly Seb Ross in our sights, so I'm not sure how much interest we'll have in Carlton's midfield depth.

It also depends on what those players want of course, they might not be a good fit for Essendon for whatever reason. Not that we can really judge that as it hasn't been made public afaik.
Click to expand...

KPF: Id argue McGovern could add much value to Stewart, Casboult definitely if your forward coach is competent at working out leading patterns.

KPD: Macreadie is a walk up start. Marchbank also but I'd rather keep him for his intercept ability.

Tall winger: LOB gets a game over Snelling. Better disposal too. I'll cop it for this but Id be willing to part with Williamson in a Saad trade. You aint getting a first round and thered have to some later pick swaps.

Small lock down defenders we cant help you with. You wanna take a chance on Polson for rebounding? I like you Lore. You dont want Polson.

Big midfield bull: Kennedy. Hes just not good enough to take enough light off Cripps. Is that really a criticism? Hes a solid player who's only played 50 odd games. Has some chops around forward and a strong mark. Hes not a ******* spud.

And thank you Lore, I appreciate your response. Too often discussions on this board devolve to the Nash equilibrium. Youve presented me with options which i hope I have adequately responded to.
 
Brutalitops said:
KPF: Id argue McGovern could add much value to Stewart, Casboult definitely if your forward coach is competent at working working leading patterns.
Click to expand...
McGovern too small, we have a few around that size. Casboult is 30 and our forwards coach is nothing to write home about as far as I'm concerned.

Brutalitops said:
KPD: Macreadie is a walk up start. Marchbank also but I'd rather keep him for his intercept ability.
Click to expand...
Macreadie looks similar to Zerk (on paper) same age, same income etc. We have a few younguns that can intercept, it's more a matter of providing cover and depth while they develop, Hooker is close to done, Ambrose has been out for over a year with injuries and he's 29. Hurley as likely as not ends up playing forward. We have Ridley as intercept, he probably plays CHB next year. It's more of the shutdown type role to play on the monsters, which Zerk gets left with. Would be looking at someone more established, maybe 25-27yo.

Brutalitops said:
Tall winger: LOB geys a game over Snelling. Better disposal too. I'll cop it for this but Id be willing to part with Williamson in a Saad trade. You aint getting a first round and thered have to some later pick swaps.
Click to expand...
Snelling is a real team player, decent in the contest, runs all day, manic tackling/pressure. The type the coach loves, I think. Why do you rate Williamson? I haven't seen him play but it looks like he struggles to get a game, 30 in 4 years. Injury prone or something? Also listed as a defender lol but Snelling is listed as a forward so that's not super meaningful.

LOB looks similar to Ham, but an inch taller. Don't think we need the extra inch of height that badly.

Brutalitops said:
Small lock down defenders we cant help you with. You wanna take a chance on Polson for rebounding? I like you Lore. You dont want Polson.
Click to expand...
hahhaa

Brutalitops said:
Big midfield bull: Kennedy. Hes just not good enough to take enough light off Cripps. Is that really a criticism? Hes a solid player who's only played 50 odd games. Has some chops around forward and a strong mark. Hes not a ******* spud.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of Dylan Clarke. Not a knock on him, but Clarke is a specialist inside mid who has played inside mid at AFL level like once, and only as a tagger. Not convinced Kennedy would get a game in there either. I don't know what the hell goes on with selecting our midfield, but being tall is not enough by itself. Suppose it's depth, and we've delisted Hibberd so there's possibly a spot depending on numbers and other recruits. Might depend on the price.

Brutalitops said:
And thank you Lore, I appreciate your response. Too often discussions on this board devolve to the Nash equilibrium. Youve presented me with options which i hope I have adequately responded to.
Click to expand...
:thumbsu:

I think ultimately you have some options there, but they're all fringe players for you, they're not going to walk in and be a top 5 player in our BnF. Overall losing Saad and getting e.g. McGovern doesn't make us equal to what we were last year, let alone better, whereas I think there are opportunities to make both clubs happy.

Essendon would absolutely prefer a first rounder, especially since we have other things we need to do and can't trade our own because of the 2 in 4 rule. Remembering there's list cuts as well, so turning one player into two that are worth half as much to us doesn't necessarily suit either.
 
Brutalitops said:
KPF: Id argue McGovern could add much value to Stewart, Casboult definitely if your forward coach is competent at working out leading patterns.

KPD: Macreadie is a walk up start. Marchbank also but I'd rather keep him for his intercept ability.

Tall winger: LOB gets a game over Snelling. Better disposal too. I'll cop it for this but Id be willing to part with Williamson in a Saad trade. You aint getting a first round and thered have to some later pick swaps.

Small lock down defenders we cant help you with. You wanna take a chance on Polson for rebounding? I like you Lore. You dont want Polson.

Big midfield bull: Kennedy. Hes just not good enough to take enough light off Cripps. Is that really a criticism? Hes a solid player who's only played 50 odd games. Has some chops around forward and a strong mark. Hes not a ******* spud.

And thank you Lore, I appreciate your response. Too often discussions on this board devolve to the Nash equilibrium. Youve presented me with options which i hope I have adequately responded to.
Click to expand...

I know this thread does venture into satire at times but come on now, Mitch McGovern has no value.
 
Lore said:
McGovern too small, we have a few around that size. Casboult is 30 and our forwards coach is nothing to write home about as far as I'm concerned.


Macreadie looks similar to Zerk (on paper) same age, same income etc. We have a few younguns that can intercept, it's more a matter of providing cover and depth while they develop, Hooker is close to done, Ambrose has been out for over a year with injuries and he's 29. Hurley as likely as not ends up playing forward. We have Ridley as intercept, he probably plays CHB next year. It's more of the shutdown type role to play on the monsters, which Zerk gets left with. Would be looking at someone more established, maybe 25-27yo.


Snelling is a real team player, decent in the contest, runs all day, manic tackling/pressure. The type the coach loves, I think. Why do you rate Williamson? I haven't seen him play but it looks like he struggles to get a game, 30 in 4 years. Injury prone or something? Also listed as a defender lol but Snelling is listed as a forward so that's not super meaningful.

LOB looks similar to Ham, but an inch taller. Don't think we need the extra inch of height that badly.


hahhaa


Reminds me of Dylan Clarke. Not a knock on him, but Clarke is a specialist inside mid who has played inside mid at AFL level like once, and only as a tagger. Not convinced Kennedy would get a game in there either. I don't know what the hell goes on with selecting our midfield, but being tall is not enough by itself. Suppose it's depth, and we've delisted Hibberd so there's possibly a spot depending on numbers and other recruits. Might depend on the price.


:thumbsu:

I think ultimately you have some options there, but they're all fringe players for you, they're not going to walk in and be a top 5 player in our BnF. Overall losing Saad and getting e.g. McGovern doesn't make us equal to what we were last year, let alone better, whereas I think there are opportunities to make both clubs happy.

Essendon would absolutely prefer a first rounder, especially since we have other things we need to do and can't trade our own because of the 2 in 4 rule. Remembering there's list cuts as well, so turning one player into two that are worth half as much to us doesn't necessarily suit either.
Click to expand...

And here we are. In typical response, some fanciful notion that you are challenging. You aren't close. I hypothesise players who can get you there and none are no good. Do you see the conundrum when dealing with Essendon supporters? You are, or should be, in rebuild thinking. But you aren't. No wonder your club is in the doldrums.
 
Brutalitops said:
And here we are. In typical response, some fanciful notion that you are challenging. You aren't close. I hypothesise players who can get you there and none are no good. Do you see the conundrum when dealing with Essendon supporters? You are, or should be, in rebuild thinking. But you aren't. No wonder your club is in the doldrums.
Click to expand...
Lol don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's a supply and demand issue. We need things you don't really have, and you don't have things we need. That doesn't mean you throw it all away, still gotta find solutions.

We both need rebounding defenders, so that's useless. But we seem to be interested in Bonner from Port. Maybe we could work it in with the Fantasia trade?

The KPFs you have don't work with our forward line, we need someone who can act as a stop gap at FF for 3-4 years while Jones and Eyre develop. Stewart is 198cm and 26 years old, but we only have one of him, and if he's injured we're completely bereft of height. We delisted McKernan, Daniher is leaving, Bellchambers was a ruckman who could chop out at FF, but he's retired (and not before time). We have Stringer, Townsend, Laverde all able to play as 190ish marking forwards, so a 192cm player while it might make that area slightly better, doesn't really help us overall, we just have extra depth in a spot we already had covered and still have a hole at FF. Casboult isn't going to hold it down for the next 3-4 years either. But if you can help us get 2MP, that might work? Otherwise Crauford might get the call up 🤔

You didn't answer my question about Williamson. I haven't seen him play, but you seem to rate him highly. What's he like? At the moment we have Langford and daylight. Langford also plays forward, adding to the 190ish forwards thing. If we can sort out our inside mids and Heppell can get his body right, he could also play on a wing, but we're a bit concerned he might've lost some pace with his injuries. Cutler was good at Brisbane, and was good in his first couple of games for us, but he got injured and came back looking not particularly flash. We dunno if he's going to come good with a preseason or if he's just inconsistent or what... there's nothing to judge him on and no real depth in that spot other than Ham, Snelling, Smith, Guelfi and a rotation of inside mids including Merrett, McGrath. We think Smith will play in defence and Guelfi may request a trade home. So we have LOTS of options for a wing or flank. But they're mostly tiny, which makes it hard to move the ball since we get outmarked everywhere. Tell me about Williamson please?

As far as young KPDs, we already have Zerk, Bryan, McBride, Ridley, Francis, and we're getting Brand from our NGA. Ridley and Francis are best 22, more of an intercept/rebound type, Bryan and McBride haven't debuted yet and need time to learn their craft, Bryan is actually a ruck but will likely play time in defence and McBride is an Irishman so he has to learn to football first. So we're flush for this position, but they're all really young and immature atm, and with Hooker and Hurley over the hill we are going to end up throwing Zerk to the wolves (he's still a bit skinny, would rather not). I'm not really sure how you can help on this front. I know we've been asking around a bit for a KPD, Daniel Talia's name came up but that's been binned. Not sure what else is out there.

As for Kennedy, we could take him depending on the price and who else we end up getting to play that position. Are you thinking it would be like Kennedy and a second or Kennedy and a late first? Because I think that would be where the yes/no line is, assuming we still have need of an inside mid.
 
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