Win Prizes Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

[Gethelred]

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack.

As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them.

If you've still got a live question posted to a christian, feel free to continue conversing for the time being.

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Roylion]

So you’ve touched on several of the prophecies not being fulfilled,

I fail to see how any of these so-called 'prophecies' have been fulfilled.

some of which you have given misinformed reasons

And what 'misinformed reasons' would these be? Do tell.

for simply not understanding how to read the Bible.

I've read the Bible many times. I certainly don't take your view that the Bible is inerrant.

What about the other 270 odd?

What about them? Why don't you explain how a few of them definitely HAVE been fulfilled and we'll discuss those ones as a start.

You still have a long way to go.

You're yet to explain how any of them have been fulfilled. All you've done is made a claim that 300 have been fulfilled without giving any specific detail of how that has actually happened for any of them.

 

[evolved2]

The prophecies allegedly fulfiled by Jesus are either vague, unverifiable, or blatant attempts to make prophecy come true.

Take Matthew 21:4-5 for example:

This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

“Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”

They told you what they were doing in the bolded sentence. It's not very convincing unless you want to believe.

 

[western royboy]

To be fair this thread has run its course, it serves no purpose no is circular in its nature

 

[evolved2]

To be fair this thread has run its course, it serves no purpose no is circular in its nature

I reckon it's time to turn it into 'ask an Essendon supporter'.

 

[western royboy]

I reckon it's time to turn it into 'ask an Essendon supporter'.

It would make more sense

 

[Total Power]

Sorry but you are lacking the know for how to read the Bible. These statements you have made are misinformed. The purpose of the messiah was to save people all over the world. This is in fact part of the reason why Jesus was crucified, for he was thought to be a fraud as he did not fulfill the prophecy in the way the people had envisioned.

Wrong this is what happens when you listen to bullshit youtube videos and Christian narratives.

Specifically, the Old Testament says the messiah will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6) and liberate Israel from tyranny.
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Which one has been fulfilled? except those petty side shows and reverse engineered NT verses? And oh, he said he will return and people standing there will see Jesus return as well.

Complete fail. Prophecies...please!! Where in the OT does it say Jesus would come and accomplish basically nothing that was promised, die young, then scurry back to heaven for 2000 years? The Messiah was never supposed to die before the above things happened. This is why the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. There's no mention of Jesus in the OT despite NT authors trying their best to reverse engineer the verses.

 

[peetoo]

Might have been worth another go to save humanity for example

Around the reformation when the catholic and Protestant side thought horrible deaths/murders were appropriate and in his name

Two world wars

 

[Total Power]

I reckon it's time to turn it into 'ask an Essendon supporter'.

Bro if Bitchmond can do it, everyone else can. I used to laugh at Richmond being a part of the big 4. 2 finals in 40 odd years...Nek minit.....

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

The Messiah was never supposed to die before the above things happened. This is why the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. There's no mention of Jesus in the OT despite NT authors trying their best to reverse engineer the verses.

Wrong, the Jews are wrong. It just didn’t come to fruition how the Jews thought it would. The New Testament is trustworthy, and historical fact. It is documented truth. There is no evidence it is made up, no records of people claiming it didn’t happen. There were many eyewitnesses. If it was all a fraud it would be the most miraculous, longest surviving hoax in history. If it was made up, it wouldn’t survive the decades that followed. People who witnessed it wouldn’t give up their lives for it in the years that followed if it was made up. It should be treated like any other historical writing. The unfulfilled prophecies are yet to come, but they will. Revelation makes this clear.

 

[Roylion]

Wrong, the Jews are wrong.

This is merely unsubstantiated opinion. They would say you are wrong.

The New Testament is trustworthy, and historical fact.

No it is not.

It is documented truth.

No it is not. Documented by who? The New Testament isn't necessarily historically true because it claims it to be true.

There is no evidence it is made up, no records of people claiming it didn’t happen.

The Gospels were written a considerable time after the events it purports to describe, four to eight decades after the period Jesus is traditionally thought to exist. There is little to no supporting evidence for the historicity of most of the events described in the New Testament.

There were many eyewitnesses.

That is debatable. It was claimed there were many eyewitnesses, but that isn't necessarily so.

If it was all a fraud it would be the longest surviving hoax in history. It should be treated like any other historical writing.

How so? Much other historical writing is taken with a grain of salt as well.

For example, there are major difficulties in accepting Luke's account of the birth of Jesus. Both the Gospels of Matthew and Luke link the birth of Jesus to the reign of Herod the Great who died in 4 BC and to a Roman census.

Three Roman censuses took place in 28 BC, 8 BC, and AD 14, but they appear to not be empire wide and there were questions whether they would have included the territories of Herod the Great. it is possible the one in 8 BC is the one mentioned in the Gospel of Luke. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was Imperial Legate (Governor) of Syria from AD 6 - 12 and while he did carry out a tax census of the province of Judea in AD 6, no Roman census required people to travel from their own homes to those of distant ancestors as described in the Gospels. The census of Judea in any case, would not have affected Joseph and his family, living in Galilee, which was outside the province of Judea. So that appears to be made up.

The unfulfilled prophecies are yet to come, but they will.

That is merely opinion.

Revelation makes this clear.

Why should 'Revelation' be believed?

 

[Total Power]

Wrong, the Jews are wrong. It just didn’t come to fruition how the Jews thought it would.

The Jewish authors wrote it, Christians didn't. They came a lot later. The Messiah was meant to save Israel and the Jews. This is also written in the Torah, no matter how hard you try you can't change that. I have quoted the above message, it's very CLEAR what the Messiah is supposed to do.

The New Testament is trustworthy,

Says who? If it's trustworthy, why are there no first hand examples? Why in in other Gospels outside of John, Jesus never claimed to be God? John was written 90 years after the death of this individual you call Jesus, hardly trustworthy. John was also uneducated, someone else wrote the Gospel for him.

and historical fact. It is documented truth.

LOL! no it's not. There's been no mention of Jesus till 60 years after this death, that even by Josephus, who said Jesus was not special.

There is no evidence it is made up, no records of people claiming it didn’t happen.

Almost everything has been mythicized. I have written a long post in regards to the empty tomb and how the whole ressuaction story evolved from Gospel to Gospel.

 

[Total Power]

The unfulfilled prophecies are yet to come, but they will.

Lets fulfill the coming of Jesus Christ again first? what do you make this verse?

"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

"Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31)

"He also said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.” (Mark 9:1)


Are these guys still alive? i wanna see how you twist these verses. You guys are an expert in that, make a living out of it basically.

 

[peetoo]

Wrong, the Jews are wrong. It just didn’t come to fruition how the Jews thought it would. The New Testament is trustworthy, and historical fact. It is documented truth. There is no evidence it is made up, no records of people claiming it didn’t happen. There were many eyewitnesses. If it was all a fraud it would be the most miraculous, longest surviving hoax in history. If it was made up, it wouldn’t survive the decades that followed. People who witnessed it wouldn’t give up their lives for it in the years that followed if it was made up. It should be treated like any other historical writing. The unfulfilled prophecies are yet to come, but they will. Revelation makes this clear.

King Arthur and Robin Hood too

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

Lets fulfill the coming of Jesus Christ again first? what do you make this verse?

"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

"Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31)

"He also said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.” (Mark 9:1)


Are these guys still alive? i wanna see how you twist these verses. You guys are an expert in that, make a living out of it basically.

All I will say is context context context. A verse should never be interpreted in isolation. As you say, that’s where twisting occurs. Read the chapter above and below these verses and it will hopefully become clearer to you what Jesus was talking about.

 

[Roylion]

Read the chapter above and below these verses and it will hopefully become clearer to you what Jesus was talking about.

Why don't you explain the context?

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

Why don't you explain the context?

You are smart, I am busy. I do not care to waste my time when it is readily available right in front of you. As I said, read the chapter above and below each of these 4 verses and there you will have the context.

 

[Total Power]

All I will say is context context context. A verse should never be interpreted in isolation. As you say, that’s where twisting occurs. Read the chapter above and below these verses and it will hopefully become clearer to you what Jesus was talking about.

Ah good ole 'context'. Jesus says, THOSE WHO ARE STILL STANDING there, will not taste DEATH, before any of this happens. I made an extensive post about how the writers of NT believed that the end of the world is near, hence wrote these apocalyptic verses, happy to repost if you wish.

Another failed prophecy.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

All I will say is context context context. A verse should never be interpreted in isolation. As you say, that’s where twisting occurs. Read the chapter above and below these verses and it will hopefully become clearer to you what Jesus was talking about.

Jesus didn't write the bible. Those that did, never met him.

 

[peetoo]

Jesus didn't write the bible. Those that did, never met him.

What historians call secondary evidence

 

[Roylion]

You are smart, I am busy.

I'm busy too. You're not too busy to get on here to make unsubstantiated claims though. You're making the claim. Explain it more fully.

As I said, read the chapter above and below each of these 4 verses and there you will have the context.

You explain what context you take from it. Or can't you do that?

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

Ah good ole 'context'. Jesus says, THOSE WHO ARE STILL STANDING there, will not taste DEATH, before any of this happens. I made an extensive post about how the writers of NT believed that the end of the world is near, hence wrote these apocalyptic verses, happy to repost if you wish.

Another failed prophecy.

You are misinterpreting, as I said read the chapters around the verses you have plucked out, and you will hopefully realise the real meaning of them.

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

I'm busy too. You're not too busy to get on here to make unsubstantiated claims though. You're making the claim. Explain it more fully.


You explain what context you take from it. Or can't you do that?

No it wouldn’t be the context I take from it, it would be the context. The context is not subjective. You read and find out the context for yourself. I’m tired and don’t want to use up any brain power. That’s the honest truth.

 

[Pie eyed]

So you’ve touched on why you think several of the prophecies have not been fulfilled, some of which you have given misinformed reasons through simply not understanding how to read the Bible. What about the other 270 odd prophecies Jesus fulfilled? You still have a long way to go.

Elaborate on a single prophecy which Jesus allegedly made which was fulfilled, which would not have simply occured by natural cause and/or natural routine.

Just one.

 

[Total Power]

You are misinterpreting, as I said read the chapters around the verses you have plucked out, and you will hopefully realise the real meaning of them.

What have i misinterpreted, i have quoted the verse above, tell me what? i have read a 100 different Christian interpretations ranging from 'a generation' doesn't mean earth, it means heavenly.

LOL.

I assume people who were alive there are alive in heaven now?

 

[Total Power]

No it wouldn’t be the context I take from it, it would be the context. The context is not subjective. You read and find out the context for yourself. I’m tired and don’t want to use up any brain power. That’s the honest truth.

Under what context would you ask your wife to submit to the husband completely like NT says? under what condition would you own slaves? under what condition would women need to be silent in front of men? Under what conditions would you consider an unbeliever to be evil and not worthy or friendship?

Morality of goat herders. What majority of what NT says, aren't original. Turn the other cheek was mentioned by Conficious long long time ago.