Border Gavaskar Trophy, India v Australia, 2nd Test 17-21 Feb, 1430hrs at Delhi

[Westend]

Gilespie - 33 wickets at 21.73 in India.

McGrath - 33 wickets at 21.30 in India.

Were those pair levels above Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood or what? Our quicks don't even look like getting a wicket in unfavourable conditions now aday.

I think our bowlers so far have been okay....cummins has been below par and our spinners have done a good job

we need runs

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Gilespie - 33 wickets at 21.73 in India.

McGrath - 33 wickets at 21.30 in India.

Were those pair levels above Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood or what? Our quicks don't even look like getting a wicket in unfavourable conditions now aday.

Yeah they were a fair bit above. Probably a reason Pigeon is rated beside DK as the best quick we’ve ever had. Dizzy was very underrated always performed just a shame he had injuries

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I think our bowlers so far have been okay....cummins has been below par and our spinners have done a good job

we need runs

Yep. I find it hard to blame the bowlers, not as if they have conceded a lot 400 being the highest. The batsmen have been an utter disgrace and our so called 2 of the best in the world batsmen in Smith and Lab should take a fair bit of that blame. There’s no point getting 30 odd

 

[Around the Wicket]

I think our bowlers so far have been okay....cummins has been below par and our spinners have done a good job

we need runs

That didn't answer the question LoL

Our fast bowlers although they all statisically have good records they can't do s**t in unfavourable conditions, flat tracks they don't even look like getting a wicket.

 

[Around the Wicket]

Yep. I find it hard to blame the bowlers, not as if they have conceded a lot 400 being the highest. The batsmen have been an utter disgrace and our so called 2 of the best in the world batsmen in Smith and Lab should take a fair bit of that blame. There’s no point getting 30 odd

Spinners aren't as threatening as the Indian ones but yes Lyon and Murphy did go well. Wasn't that impressed MK.

 

[Around the Wicket]

We lost 8/28.. they chased down 115 without even having to sweat.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Spinners aren't as threatening as the Indian ones but yes Lyon and Murphy did go well. Wasn't that impressed MK.

I’ll give him pass as it’s his debut. Thought he was unlucky in the first innings could easily have have got another 1-2. Second innings was a write off was never enough runs.

I’d still give him the next test

 

[LukeParkerno1]

We lost 8/28.. they chased down 115 without even having to sweat.

Yeah funnily by not playing a sweep

 

[Around the Wicket]

I’ll give him pass as it’s his debut. Thought he was unlucky in the first innings could easily have have got another 1-2. Second innings was a write off was never enough runs.

I’d still give him the next test

The issue with Murphy's next few years is we have really no spin favourable tours ahead so he will hardly play a Test if Lyons still about and the pitches in Shield cricket are green as. Only series I see us playing 2 spinners until India 2027 is a 2 Test series in Sri Lanka.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

The issue with Murphy's next few years is we have really no spin favourable tours ahead so he will hardly play a Test if Lyons still about and the pitches in Shield cricket are green as. Only series I see us playing 2 spinners until India 2027 is a 2 Test series in Sri Lanka.

That isn’t a bad thing- he will go to the Ashes though maybe as backup but this is the one instance I don’t mind a glorified backup

 

[PhatBoy]

The problem I have isn't with the early developmental stages - stages 1 and 2 - but once kids are playing two day cricket in their mid teens, 14-16.

If you're talented, you're playing 3 games a week, minimum; Friday night juniors, Saturday afternoon seniors, Sunday morning juniors. If you're hardcore, you're playing for your school or playing on Sunday afternoon, which can add 1-3 more games a week. You're training near constantly, but it's with a myriad of different people. Some of the people you're getting coached by know a lot, others a little, some none at all (usually they're the loudest); all of them offer their opinions on what you 'need' to do to get better. You're playing one dayers, T20's as often as you're playing two day games; Covid hasn't helped any, nor has El Nina this season.

You learn you need to be proactive; safest defense is being down the nonstriker's end and all that. You learn to read the field, to hit the ball from a good length to legside gaps, to rotate the strike. You develop your scoring shots, and you work on your ability to hit the ball; if you've only got 20 overs, you need to hit the ball. It's not about putting the bad one away; you've got to push the bowler on the back foot.

You've got reps carnivals, and you've got churn and burnout and you're wondering if you're getting any better or learning anything. You're playing long form cricket, and it has different needs/requirements but your methods still work. Only, you've not bat for anywhere near 25 overs or longer, ever.

A criticism I've had of Australian development is that we simply do not provide nearly enough true long form cricket or reward for batting time. How in utter * do we expect to bat out a draw in foreign conditions if the first time you have to try is on days 4-5 of a tour of India or England? Retirement scores in junior and senior cricket can also get in the bin; you need to provide people the opportunity to succeed and to practice batting focus for periods of time exceeding 30 overs.

I would genuinely like a show of hands from the entire first class establishment in Australia for this question: who before they reached the age of 18 had ever bat for more than 35 overs? 55 overs?

People wonder why it takes until someone's in their late 20's/early 30's to kick on with the bat; it takes them that long to form the required focus to bat long periods of time, and that development happens arguably too late if it's in prem 1-2 and shield cricket.

At representative level I agree totally. At local level we and I’m assuming most other major regional centres play two day senior cricket: there’s actually been a lot of debate about it because for example last Saturday it was 38* here and theoretically after we lost the toss we could have had to field for 76 overs - our team had two kids in it aged 14 and one of them isn’t even a regular cricketer. That’s a lot to ask of a kid.

The ones that live it and love it absolutely do have the chance if they’re good enough to bat that long.
We actually got sent in on the weekend for some unknown reason given the heat and my instructions to our juniors was ‘I don’t care if you get 10 runs off 80 balls. Just bat for as long as you can.’ (Didn’t work)

One kid here at about 16 hit back to back doubles in the same grade a few years ago.

I agree with your point 100 per cent at rep level and the cacophony of different advice they get and so forth, but most kids who are good will at SOME level get that chance to bat for a good 50-80 overs at some stage if they are up to it, just not necessarily against the best of their peers

 

[Westend]

That didn't answer the question LoL

Our fast bowlers although they all statisically have good records they can't do s**t in unfavourable conditions, flat tracks they don't even look like getting a wicket.

Cummins having bowled crap still has taken 3 wickets ...so thats a little positive I guess

 

[Gethelred]

At representative level I agree totally. At local level we and I’m assuming most other major regional centres play two day senior cricket: there’s actually been a lot of debate about it because for example last Saturday it was 38* here and theoretically after we lost the toss we could have had to field for 76 overs - our team had two kids in it aged 14 and one of them isn’t even a regular cricketer. That’s a lot to ask of a kid.

The ones that live it and love it absolutely do have the chance if they’re good enough to bat that long.
We actually got sent in on the weekend for some unknown reason given the heat and my instructions to our juniors was ‘I don’t care if you get 10 runs off 80 balls. Just bat for as long as you can.’ (Didn’t work)

One kid here at about 16 hit back to back doubles in the same grade a few years ago.

I agree with your point 100 per cent at rep level and the cacophony of different advice they get and so forth, but most kids who are good will at SOME level get that chance to bat for a good 50-80 overs at some stage if they are up to it, just not necessarily against the best of their peers

The problem is more that you cannot use a muscle that isn't built up. They get the opportunity to do it once, then have to wear so many different hats between so many different formats with so much different advice between different levels of expertise and different relationships with the player; small wonder they simply adopt what works the majority of the time.

Our juniors don't get the opportunity to exercise that kind of restraint often enough, because the way cricket is set up through juniors/park cricket and into representative or district is not designed to test for it. You need to make runs, and you need to make them quickly in as eye-catching a fashion as possible. You do not bat on nearly enough challenging surfaces, nor do you have to learn to resurrect a dead leather ball for old ball swing. You're playing on so many different surfaces, you adopt a method that works on as many as you can and that method might not work at the top level.

Bear in mind, I'm talking macro here despite using the singular 'you'. This is something that's happening broadly,

If you wanted players who could bat this way, you'd have clearer pathways from reps to prem 4 day games specifically, and you'd ask players to choose early whether they want to be a short form or long form player to specialise their development. Unfortunately if you do this you're going to get kids opting for the short form an awful lot, but you need the choice to come from them.

That's not to say you cannot have overlap, or that a player from one cannot do the other. Just, don't develop a young person to be both FF and CHB. Don't * with their heads like that.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

The only player to score 3 triple centuries in the Ranji Trophy is Ravindra Jadeja. Not Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Kohli, Laxman, etc. And he's not even in this side for his batting.

By way of comparison, the last to do it in the Sheffield Shield is Liam Davis, in 2012.

Without taking away from Jadeja's efforts I'd imagine Tendulka, Gavaskar, Kohil, Laxman etc., have barely played Ranji Trouphy given their international commitments.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Gilespie - 33 wickets at 21.73 in India.

McGrath - 33 wickets at 21.30 in India.

Were those pair levels above Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood or what? Our quicks don't even look like getting a wicket in unfavourable conditions now aday.

Would rate Cummins behind McGrath but ahead of Gillespie.

Cummins has barely played in India. His average is 32, could drop a bit with a decent hall in the next test or two. These pitches have been particularly dead for pace bowling.

McGrath and Gillespie at least played on pitches where they broke up and provided cracks and inconsistent bounce to help fast bowlers. Don’t feel like have gotten to that stage this series given they’ve barely lasted two days.

 

[sydney_gws]

LOL no, let it go. He wasn't up to it last time he was in the team and is now only playing his first long form game in years.

Made 5,0 in the shield. 2nd ball duck out to Wes Agar.

 

[sydney_gws]

A little harsh,coming back from a serious injury and sure failed with the bat 1st innings as every one did other then Matt Short.Perhaps should have not batted 2nd innings so high as was a nasty hit and he still is only 80% fit and needs time to recover full fitness again.

Where was he hit? The hand or leg?

 

[Voice of the G]

Where was he hit? The hand or leg?

Wrist,back on the field today in 1st slip and taken 2 catches so not as bad as it first looked.

 

[BACCS]

Alright.

These are wickets in India in tests by each bowler.

James Anderson: 34 wickets at 29.43.
Stuart Broad: 10 wickets at 61.70.
Ian Botham: 30 wickets at 25.53.
Bob Willis: 32 wickets at 22.38.
Derek Underwood: 54 wickets at 26.52.
Richard Hadlee: 34 wickets at 23.65.
Daniel Vettori: 9 wickets at 61.00.
Tim Southee: 20 wickets at 28.70.
Trent Boult: 15 wickets at 38.67.
Wasim Akram: 27 wickets at 27.70.
Imran Khan: 27 wickets at 28.04.
Danish Kaneria: 31 wickets at 39.58.
Iqbal Qasim: 29 wickets at 33.86.
Dale Steyn: 26 wickets at 21.38.
Alan Donald: 17 wickets at 16.12.
Morne Morkel: 21 wickets at 32.29.
Muttiah Muralitharan: 40 wickets at 35.35.
Rangana Herath: 12 wickets at 54.33.
Courtney Walsh: 43 wickets at 18.56.
Malcolm Marshall: 36 wickets at 24.61.
Lance Gibbs: 39 wickets at 23.38.
Shane Warne: 34 wickets at 43.12
Glenn McGrath: 33 at 21.30.
Richie Benaut: 52 wickets at 18.38.

And finally,

Nathan Lyon: 42 wickets at 30.52.

Of those who have been to India as spinners (Underwood, Vettori, Kaneria, Qasim, Murali, Herath, Warne, Gibbs, Lyon and Benaut) only Benaut and Underwood boast superior wicket tallies than Lyon, and only Gibbs, Underwood and Benaut have better averages.

What this list of bowlers really demonstrates is that you need not bowl spin to take wickets in India. If you're a good enough bowler - or, if you can find something about the conditions to latch onto - you can absolutely succeed in India.

But the problem we have is the following:

Josh Hazlewood: 9 wickets at 32.78 from 4 tests.
Mitchel Starc: 7 wickets at 50.14 from 4 tests.
Pat Cummins: 11 wickets at 32.82 from 4 tests.

You can win a test using pace in India, but not when your entire bowling lineup averages over 30 with the ball.

The other side of the problem is each of our three quicks have only played the 4 tests in India. If they are to learn how to be successful - and the above list would suggest that a good bowler can work their way into wickets in Indian conditions - then they need to play more, not less. Horses for courses might sound good, but you need the alternatives to be better than the incumbent bowler first.

From the other side of the equation, we have the batting:

Kim Hughes: 12 innings at 59.40.
Andy Flower: 10 innings at 117.14.
Garry Sobers: 13 innings at 99.89.
Ken Barrington: 10 innings at 96.29.
Younis Khan: 12 innings at 76.80.
Clive Lloyd: 12 innings at 75.60.
Bert Sutcliffe: 16 innings at 68.08.
Rohan Kanhai: 12 innings at 63.75.
Mahela Jayawardene: 10 innings at 62.80.
Hashim Amla: 17 innings at 62.73.
Jacques Kallis: 15 innings at 58.46.
Alvin Kallicharran: 19 innings at 58.35.
Wasim Raja: 13 innings at 57.27.
Neil Harvey: 11 innings at 55.36.
Inzamam-ul-Haq: 10 wickets at 54.89.
Andrew Strauss: 10 innings at 54.33.
Steve Smith: 16 innings at 52.21.
Tony Greig: 16 at 51.71.
Alastair Cook: 26 innings at 51.46.
Allan Border: 16 at 51.07.
Brendon McCullum: 10 innings at 50.75.

The thing that you can tell most from this list is that only Smith, Strauss, Cook, Kallis, Amla, McCullum and Khan have truly played this current incarnation of India; there is a small group (Inzamam, Jayawardene, Flower, Raja) who played in the previous decade, but outside of that the majority of these players are from much earlier eras.

Since 2000, India have lost two series at home (once to us in 2004, once to England in 2012) with 5 drawn; once to NZ, Pakistan, England and SA twice. However, if you confine that to the last 10 years - since they lost to England in 2012 - they have not lost or drawn a series at home, and in that time have lost two tests; one to England in 20-21, one to us in 2015-17.

As such, you cannot really conclude an awful lot from series statistics, but from the series win by England in 2012:

Cook: 562 runs at 80.29
Pieterson: 338 runs at 48.29
Trott: 294 runs at 42.00
Prior: 258 runs at 51.00.

Now, bear in mind that Sehwag and Tendulkar both played all series and were mediocre; that was arguably their weakest period since 2000, and they certainly have not been weaker since. But this gives you an image of how you beat them: you need to be able to beat their bowlers. It isn't about spin or taking wickets, or anything other than being better than their bowling attack in their conditions.

Find a way to score, and press your advantage home.

This post should be pinned to every match thread for this series corbies Gough, easy reference point when someone starts bagging Lyon after not taking a wicket in one of his spells.

 

[BACCS]

From cric info. No wonder we are getting flogged on turning pitches.

View attachment 1613172

These bowling stats just reaffirm how good Lyon has been over this WTC period as well (those stats you quoted are nuts though). 69 wickets from 29 innings at an average of 28.82 and does not always play on pitches as suited to spin bowling, which means the average is a bit higher. 4th best Test average by a foreign spinner in India of all time and the best of the modern era.

I hope people (they know who they are on this board) can appreciate how lucky we are to have a spinner as high quality as Lyon and stay away from bagging him if he goes a spell or two without a wicket.

 

[Around the Wicket]

Josh Hazlewood: 9 wickets at 32.78 from 4 tests.
Mitchel Starc: 7 wickets at 50.14 from 4 tests.
Pat Cummins: 11 wickets at 32.82 from 4 tests.

You can win a test using pace in India, but not when your entire bowling lineup averages over 30 with the ball.

Favourable conditions all 3 are good but I wouldn't rate any of these guys that highly.

 

[The 747]

I hope people (they know who they are on this board) can appreciate how lucky we are to have a spinner as high quality as Lyon and stay away from bagging him if he goes a spell or two without a wicket.

Good luck with that. It takes a couple of balls before the haters on here come out swinging about Lyon.

 

[Rabish Binney]

Has a shield average of 45 plus one of the best fieldsman in the world and a handy spin baller.Has had no chance to play red ball cricket since 2019 and breaking his leg and then the injury today not much luck going his way in hopefully his return to red ball cricket.

First class average of 39 with only 7 hundreds in 67 matches. Test average of 26 (small sample size I know).

I don't get the hype about his red ball form.....even before 2019...

 

[Rabish Binney]

I’ll give him pass as it’s his debut. Thought he was unlucky in the first innings could easily have have got another 1-2. Second innings was a write off was never enough runs.

I’d still give him the next test

Yep

Hard to be an attacking spinner if the opposition is chasing only 100 odd....

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Yep

Hard to be an attacking spinner if the opposition is chasing only 100 odd....

Batsmen lost the test not the bowlers we were 1/62…honestly even at absolute utter worst you’d say you’d get 200 ahead…