Analysis Changes vs Weagles Round 11

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Foxman98

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Sweet vs. Witts (76 contests)
Hitouts: 24 / 38
To Advantage: 8 / 13
Clearances: 32 / 20
Score: 6.3 (39) / 3.3 (21)

Sweet vs. Cool (3 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 0
To Advantage: 2 / 0
Clearances: 2 / 1
Score: 0.0 (0) / 0.0 (0)

Cordy vs. Witts (19 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 13
To Advantage: 1 /6
Clearances: 7 / 8
Score: 1.0 (6) / 2.2 (14)

Cordy vs. Chol (6 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 2
To Advantage: 1 / 1
Clearances: 2 / 3
Score: 1.0 (6) / 1.0 (6)

We’ve all literally already been through this, those are the factual numbers without your BS.

Was Sweet beaten, yes no one is disagreeing with that. Sweet in his 5th game was beaten by one of the best pure ruckmen in the game. He was by absolutely no means smashed. That is literally a fact, you can’t debate this.

FWIW the last time Witts played English he destroyed him too.

You do realise no one wants Sweet to play 20/80 ruck/forward. Obviously that is not going to work. Currently we have one of the best mobile rucks in the league, who struggles in the actual ruck contests and the hands down worst 2nd ruck in the league. With one slight change we could have a mid-range ruckman whose strengths lay in the ruck contests, with hands down the best 2nd ruck in the league.

Makes sense doesn’t it?

Sweet 50/20 ruck/forward, do most of the grinding stuff around the ground - which he is actually better than English at currently = improvement for our midfield

English 50/40 Ruck/Forward, he gets more of a rest and gets more time in the middle against sub par back up rucks plus adds a much needed marking target to our forward line = hugeeeee improvement to our midfield compared to Cordy rucking and huge improvement to our forward line

Man how ******* hard is it to understand Jesus Christ. No one wants Sweet to sit at full forward for 80% of the day taking 8 ruck contests ffffffs

Mind numbing these conversations genuinely
How is it not a fact? You have taken away their own clearances, score involvements, disposals and marks?

English is a better ruckman then Sweet by a long way. English strength is his ability to run his opponents into the ground with his high time in ruck meaning we only need someone for 10% of the time. Sweet is nowhere near better then English around the ground so saying that is laughable. Sweet has no forward craft and doesn't get the pill making him a liability.

How hard is it for you ton understand that English is our best ruck by a long way and at worst will shoulder 80% of the load meaning we only need a 20% chop out.

English #1 ruckman Sweet distant #2 that is useless besides tap work which isn't that big of a deal
 

Foxman98

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Because centre clearances are due to our gun midfield not our rucks is that not what you said?

You wanted ruck contests alone and no stats that are unrelated to ruck contests.

I won't bother just happy with Go Dogs and up the Dishlicker's
No they're their own centre clearances not the team silly
 

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Dogs_R_Us

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Time for some polls, surely.

Who wants Sweet in the team? Yes. No.
Who wants Scott in the team? Yes. No.
Who wants [whipping boy] in the team? Yes. No.

Could save pages of scrolling, and scrolling, and ending up nowhere.
 

Charlie Bucket

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Why remove disposals, marks, score involvements and centre clearances? There is more to ruck work then simply hitouts hence why Sweet as anything other then a 1st ruck in emergencies is useless

Reminds me of the fans that think they get stiffed by the umps if the free kicks aren’t equal.

Ruck dominance and midfield dominance aren’t mutually exclusive. If there’s ever a case they may be it’s when there’s a Gawn or peak Grundy involved.

For most teams, the general benefit from having 3-4 more effective hit outs to advantage (which is probably my being generous) for ruckman X over ruckman Y becomes an almost irrelevant difference when you start to include the output of the mids, the around the ground input of ruckman Y and the lack of impact around the ground for ruckman X.

This is where too many of our supporters get caught up.

2 rucks is the preferred set up as we saw for most of last year. But not at the expense of advantages we have in other areas on the field that the 2nd ruck can’t contribute to.
 

ThePhreshOne

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So we just close our eyes and pretend Sweet wasn't smashed by Witts? For what was expected of him he wasn't bad but lets not pretend he wasn't soundly beaten
He was beaten nobody is conceding that. He wasn’t smashed though. Nobody went into that game expecting him to beat Witts in the ruck. It played out as everyone expected.
 

True Dog

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Did you miss the game where Witts was Gold Coast's best player by a mile and kept them in it?
Sorry FM but I must have watched a different game to you? Thought he nullified Witts (who is a beast lets not forget that) and it wasn't till he was against Cordy that things got scary?

I understand your point around the flexibility that Cordy gives but as a forward/second ruck Sweet doesn't have to do a lot? I'd also argue that having ruckman who are soley there for taps isn't a bad thing with a midfield like ours who are almost unstoppable given first use... Sweet has to be worth trial for a couple of weeks imo.
 

Foxman98

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Sorry FM but I must have watched a different game to you? Thought he nullified Witts (who is a beast lets not forget that) and it wasn't till he was against Cordy that things got scary?

I understand your point around the flexibility that Cordy gives but as a forward/second ruck Sweet doesn't have to do a lot? I'd also argue that having ruckman who are soley there for taps isn't a bad thing with a midfield like ours who are almost unstoppable given first use... Sweet has to be worth trial for a couple of weeks imo.
Sweet isn't a dominate tap ruck though thats the point. It not like we have prime Nic Nat putting it down our mids throats. Sweet is the McComb of ruckman but because people want 2 ruckman so bad for "structure" which is bolloks with our list they over look it. English with Bruce chopping out in a month will be our best set up going forward
 

Foxman98

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He was beaten nobody is conceding that. He wasn’t smashed though. Nobody went into that game expecting him to beat Witts in the ruck. It played out as everyone expected.
Look up for the key stats Witts had double or more on Sweet. Sweet was competitive yes but just because we didn't have expectations doesn't change the result of how badly he was beaten
 

doggies ftw

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How is it not a fact? You have taken away their own clearances, score involvements, disposals and marks?

English is a better ruckman then Sweet by a long way. English strength is his ability to run his opponents into the ground with his high time in ruck meaning we only need someone for 10% of the time. Sweet is nowhere near better then English around the ground so saying that is laughable. Sweet has no forward craft and doesn't get the pill making him a liability.

How hard is it for you ton understand that English is our best ruck by a long way and at worst will shoulder 80% of the load meaning we only need a 20% chop out.

English #1 ruckman Sweet distant #2 that is useless besides tap work which isn't that big of a deal
Bont is our best midfielder by a mile, therefore he should play 100% midfield right? Right?

Just maybe there’s more factors to take into account, if you’re not able to comprehend more than one thing at a time that’s fine

When did I say he’s better around the ground? 😂

Purely in the ruck contests, and following up in the stoppages at ground level from a ruck contest. Sweet is equal if not better than English, I’d say even at this stage of their careers Sweet has him pipped. English on the other hand is an absolute beast around the ground. 50/50, play players to their strengths which have the best output for the TEAM, simple.
 

Foxman98

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Reminds me of the fans that think they get stiffed by the umps if the free kicks aren’t equal.

Ruck dominance and midfield dominance aren’t mutually exclusive. If there’s ever a case they may be it’s when there’s a Gawn or peak Grundy involved.

For most teams, the general benefit from having 3-4 more effective hit outs to advantage (which is probably my being generous) for ruckman X over ruckman Y becomes an almost irrelevant difference when you start to include the output of the mids, the around the ground input of ruckman Y and the lack of impact around the ground for ruckman X.

This is where too many of our supporters get caught up.

2 rucks is the preferred set up as we saw for most of last year. But not at the expense of advantages we have in other areas on the field that the 2nd ruck can’t contribute to.
2 rucks worked with English as a forward as the gap between him and Martin early in the ruck was marginal. The gap now between english and Sweet is substantial and they don't realise.

English this year per game: 22 disposals 6 clearances 7.6 score involvements 22 hitouts 6.6% to advantage 7 marks 3 goals in 5 games
Sweet: this year per game: 8 Disposals 2 clearances 4 score involvments 26 hitouts 10% to advantage 2 marks and 0 goals

They are prepared to compromise the massive gaps for a couple of extra hitouts
 

doggies ftw

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Reminds me of the fans that think they get stiffed by the umps if the free kicks aren’t equal.

Ruck dominance and midfield dominance aren’t mutually exclusive. If there’s ever a case they may be it’s when there’s a Gawn or peak Grundy involved.

For most teams, the general benefit from having 3-4 more effective hit outs to advantage (which is probably my being generous) for ruckman X over ruckman Y becomes an almost irrelevant difference when you start to include the output of the mids, the around the ground input of ruckman Y and the lack of impact around the ground for ruckman X.

This is where too many of our supporters get caught up.

2 rucks is the preferred set up as we saw for most of last year. But not at the expense of advantages we have in other areas on the field that the 2nd ruck can’t contribute to.
Sweet vs. Witts (76 contests)
Hitouts: 24 / 38
To Advantage: 8 / 13
Clearances: 32 / 20
Score: 6.3 (39) / 3.3 (21)

Sweet vs. Cool (3 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 0
To Advantage: 2 / 0
Clearances: 2 / 1
Score: 0.0 (0) / 0.0 (0)

Cordy vs. Witts (19 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 13
To Advantage: 1 /6
Clearances: 7 / 8
Score: 1.0 (6) / 2.2 (14)

Cordy vs. Chol (6 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 2
To Advantage: 1 / 1
Clearances: 2 / 3
Score: 1.0 (6) / 1.0 (6)

When Sweet was in the ruck, he broke even with Witts to an extent (and dominated Chol in the very very small sample size) and our midfield dominated. When Cordy was in the ruck he was dominated and our midfield broke even or lost. Similar stats from the week before if you want to dig them up.

You think there is zero correlation here? Obvious hitout dominance doesn’t equal midfield dominance, but there’s more to the ruck contest for a ruckman than just hitouts.

It doesn’t get laid out any easier to understand than that

Sweet in ruck = our elite midfield dominated

Cordy in ruck = our elite midfield struggled
 

TiAn_

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2 rucks worked with English as a forward as the gap between him and Martin early in the ruck was marginal. The gap now between english and Sweet is substantial and they don't realise.

English this year per game: 22 disposals 6 clearances 7.6 score involvements 22 hitouts 6.6% to advantage 7 marks 3 goals in 5 games
Sweet: this year per game: 8 Disposals 2 clearances 4 score involvments 26 hitouts 10% to advantage 2 marks and 0 goals

They are prepared to compromise the massive gaps for a couple of extra hitouts

You’ve genuinely lost the plot, the comp for Sweet is to Cordy, not English.
 

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doggies ftw

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2 rucks worked with English as a forward as the gap between him and Martin early in the ruck was marginal. The gap now between english and Sweet is substantial and they don't realise.

English this year per game: 22 disposals 6 clearances 7.6 score involvements 22 hitouts 6.6% to advantage 7 marks 3 goals in 5 games
Sweet: this year per game: 8 Disposals 2 clearances 4 score involvments 26 hitouts 10% to advantage 2 marks and 0 goals

They are prepared to compromise the massive gaps for a couple of extra hitouts
Why are you comparing English and Sweet? We don’t lose English, he’s still in the team. How do you not get it? If it was either one of English or one of Sweet then yes those stats would be relevant

Compare English’s output as 2nd ruck to Cordys output as 2nd ruck then put up ya little stats comparison again
 

Foxman98

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Bont is our best midfielder by a mile, therefore he should play 100% midfield right? Right?

Just maybe there’s more factors to take into account, if you’re not able to comprehend more than one thing at a time that’s fine

When did I say he’s better around the ground? 😂

Purely in the ruck contests, and following up in the stoppages at ground level from a ruck contest. Sweet is equal if not better than English, I’d say even at this stage of their careers Sweet has him pipped. English on the other hand is an absolute beast around the ground. 50/50, play players to their strengths which have the best output for the TEAM, simple.
The difference between Bont to Treloar/Dunkley/Smith isn't the same as English to Sweet so thats an irrelevant comparison and Bont impacts up forward and around the ground Sweet doesn't.

You really have no understanding of how football works do you.

Around the ground English wins most ruck contests, He is often "beaten" in CBAs but not by a margin that is significant. The only thing Sweet is marginally better in is the tap contest after that he is useless.

We beat Melbounre and Max Gawn 2 years ago with Josh Dunkley in ruck for a reason the follow up work and run and carry around the ground is better then simple tap work
 

Foxman98

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Why are you comparing English and Sweet? We don’t lose English, he’s still in the team. How do you not get it? If it was either one of English or one of Sweet then yes those stats would be relevant

Compare English’s output as 2nd ruck to Cordys output as 2nd ruck then put up ya little stats comparison again
Because you're suggesting we take away Tim's strength to accommodate Sweet who's output is not that good.

You can't compare Cordy and Sweet this year because Sweet hasn't been forward or the chop out ruck
 

Foxman98

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Sweet vs. Witts (76 contests)
Hitouts: 24 / 38
To Advantage: 8 / 13
Clearances: 32 / 20
Score: 6.3 (39) / 3.3 (21)

Sweet vs. Cool (3 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 0
To Advantage: 2 / 0
Clearances: 2 / 1
Score: 0.0 (0) / 0.0 (0)

Cordy vs. Witts (19 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 13
To Advantage: 1 /6
Clearances: 7 / 8
Score: 1.0 (6) / 2.2 (14)

Cordy vs. Chol (6 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 2
To Advantage: 1 / 1
Clearances: 2 / 3
Score: 1.0 (6) / 1.0 (6)

When Sweet was in the ruck, he broke even with Witts to an extent (and dominated Chol in the very very small sample size) and our midfield dominated. When Cordy was in the ruck he was dominated and our midfield broke even or lost. Similar stats from the week before if you want to dig them up.

You think there is zero correlation here? Obvious hitout dominance doesn’t equal midfield dominance, but there’s more to the ruck contest for a ruckman than just hitouts.

It doesn’t get laid out any easier to understand than that

Sweet in ruck = our elite midfield dominated

Cordy in ruck = our elite midfield struggled
Who were the midfielders during this time?

Wrong midfield mix can also be the cause of instability (see grand final with Libba over Bont in the 3rd quarter)
 

dogwatch

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Time for some polls, surely.

Who wants Sweet in the team? Yes. No.
Who wants Scott in the team? Yes. No.
Who wants [whipping boy] in the team? Yes. No.

Could save pages of scrolling, and scrolling, and ending up nowhere.
It's different anyway. We normally save our internecine wars for the post mortem thread.

Or maybe this is just the trailer for Saturday night?

1653623133986.jpeg
 

Mutt

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How about we move on from the ruck argument? There is surely nothing more to be said that hasn't been said already. Nobody in here is going to change their opinion, so the conversation is getting tedious for others now. Just sayin'...
 

Whoyagot

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I reckon the real silent majority aren’t the UAP / One Nation supporters but the pro-cordy supporters that pop up in this thread every time his form is questioned.

Never has such drab and limited player inspired so much reverence from a supporter base. People act like because he accidentally knocked out Callum Ward once he’s the single most intimidating presence in the league and that his ‘mongrel’ can cause even the biggest players in the league to quiver in fear.
 

LondonBulldog

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Lets just see how its goes on Saturday night with two rucks. Keep in mind we need to perverse English for when it matters, in finals. We can't run him into the ground during home and away games. Some support from Sweet for a patch wouldn't hurt, especially coming back from a bad flu. Its likely it will be English with some sort of relief ruck later in the year, but for now I'm all for giving the two rucks a go. By the way it shouldn't be Bruce, rucking after coming back from a knee!
 

ossie_21

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Lets just see how its goes on Saturday night with two rucks. Keep in mind we need to perverse English for when it matters, in finals. We can't run him into the ground during home and away games. Some support from Sweet for a patch wouldn't hurt, especially coming back from a bad flu. Its likely it will be English with some sort of relief ruck later in the year, but for now I'm all for giving the two rucks a go. By the way it shouldn't be Bruce, rucking after coming back from a knee!

Eagles game won’t be the best game to gauge the success on, they have the weakest ruck stocks in the competition with Nic Nat out and no decent backup.

They have a developing ruck who isn’t good with ball in hand, an ex-Freo reject who has been underwhelming, an ex-Freo 1 gamer (possibly injured currently) and an untried youngster.
 

Royale

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I reckon the real silent majority aren’t the UAP / One Nation supporters but the pro-cordy supporters that pop up in this thread every time his form is questioned.

Never has such drab and limited player inspired so much reverence from a supporter base. People act like because he accidentally knocked out Callum Ward once he’s the single most intimidating presence in the league and that his ‘mongrel’ can cause even the biggest players in the league to quiver in fear.
Zane%20Cordy%20smashed%20Hannebury%20in%20the%20contest.jpg

Did set the tone for the grand final tho. Tackled Hanners into the shadow realm whom has never been the same since. Zordy is ok as a little bit of this and a little bit of that player. The quintessential journeyman. Below average at most things which is just enough to get a guernsey most weeks.
 

lachy

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Never have I seen such pointless arguments about 2 players that between them would not even be a 1% difference on whether we win or lose....... Oh wait its the Big Footy selection thread, what the hell am I thinking.

The team selected is good enough to win. As always we will win if we bring our overall team defence, break even or better in contested ball and use the ball forward and kicking at goal at an average level.

Sweet probably needed to play this week to support English after his layoff. Sweet or Cordy playing this week will make not a jot of difference, but was worth the 3 page argument.

A bit disappointed in Cleary but we already have 5 half backs in the team with Dureya coming back so probably well served there
 

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