Review Dees v the Handbaggers and the Dangerwank Media Circus: the Good, Bad & Fugly

[Gysberts2Bate]

This. Viney and Clarry occasionally smash blokes but if they're more than a metre or two away are ordinary at chasing. Brayshaw was better yesterday, but still flaky sometimes.

Jordan and Sparrow are alright in the guts? Give them a week or two to show something and put the heat on our 'stars' to do the grunt work.

Yep. Make Oliver play a game forward and let Petracca take his midfield time until Oliver earns it back.

 

[Topkent]

Lol for sure there's a contested ball pool each week, Clarry probably walks around with a gold medal each week for having the highest contest numbers. Meanwhile Bennell was dropped for all the times he got too far away from the contest and forced his teammates to handball more than .5m

 

[Dory_77]

Lol for sure there's a contested ball pool each week, Clarry probably walks around with a gold medal each week for having the highest contest numbers. Meanwhile Bennell was dropped for all the times he got too far away from the contest and forced his teammates to handball more than .5m

Or clearances. We dominate these stats but it means * all if 80% are scrubbed kicks to opposition.

Leigh Matthews was always right as a commentator about stats being bullshit. Clearances and hitouts were his big bugbears and our form is a perfect example of why they're useless at gauging whether a team is any good.

 

[Crimson Azure]

I'm convinced we have bottom 8 list aswell, our front 6 is terrible, back 6 is very average and our 'superstar' midfield isn't even a top 4 midfield.

I think we are set for a few more years of pain

I assume when you said 'years' you meant decades.

 

[stEdy]

Bennell was ruining our Whirlpool(TM) strategy and had to be dropped for the greater good

 

[Johnny Karate]

Or clearances. We dominate these stats but it means fu** all if 80% are scrubbed kicks to opposition.

Leigh Matthews was always right as a commentator about stats being bullshit. Clearances and hitouts were his big bugbears and our form is a perfect example of why they're useless at gauging whether a team is any good.

Ummm. What would Leigh Matthews know? I want to know what his learnings are. Has he ever been on a journey? I’ve never heard him talk about having a brand either. Not convinced of his credentials.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Bennell did SFA against Carlton, there's not much evidence it would have been different on the weekend. Like it was to be expected and I'm not having a go at him but I'm not upset that he didn't play given he had no impact against the Blues.

 

[StillAtLarge]

Pardon the intrusion guys but a few observations from yesterday's game...I shared (some of) your frustration as I have quite a few family members and friends who are long suffering Dees fans.

•Melb can't have Viney playing as a receiving midfielder. He has to be the guy winning 1st possession and dishing it out to Petracca, Salem, Bennell et al. Nathan Jones was perennially guilty of this and it seems Viney has fallen into the same trap. He's not fast or silky enough to be exiting the contest and spotting up targets himself. If Jack plays he's got to be the guy at the bottom of the pack with the most mud on his jumper at the final siren. That's on Goodwin.

•Oliver has probably the fastest hands I've seen at afl level. He is ridiculously clean but I think he could delay his handballs a tad to assess/choose better options instead of firing them out like a gatling gun to the first teammate in his field of vision. He might get pinged for htb occasionally but it'll broaden his m.o. and make your midfield far less predictable. I see Oliver as a generational talent but it could be worth approaching someone like Simon Black for a bit of one to one mentoring? He's isn't creative enough by hand right now.

•Petracca isn't always the best decision maker but knows where the goals are and is (finally) sporting an afl standard physique. I'd be isolating him inside 50 as much as possible when he's not in the guts. You can't afford to rest him on the bench given the shortened quarters.

•Gawn kicks too much for a guy with poor footskills. A 2:1 kick to handball ratio is madness. Unless your name is Dean Cox ruckmen should be dishing off to a mid wherever possible. Having said that it's hard to apportion blame if the runners aren't there.
That early goal to Fort was embarrassing though. Shouldn't have happened.

•The back six were pretty solid. Lockhart's lack of composure hurt you but the majority of Geelong's inside 50 marks weren't defendable due to zero pressure on the kicker. Lever in particular looked a class above. Richmond's forwards have been impotent all year so providing your midfield holds up their end of the bargain you should be able to deal with them. Jetta plays.

The forward line was/is a mess. You don't want 90% of your goals coming as a result of flukey, mercurial efforts or opposition mistakes. As soon as Blicavs went to Fritsch the latter should've been instructed to dummy lead and drag him away from the hotspot. Who knows, maybe that actually was Fritsch's intention but the likes of Viney decided to sit the ball on his head deep in the pockets anyway
Not sure where Tom McDonald's at but he's a player that needs space in front of him and is reliant on good delivery.
Again, you need the ball in the hands of skilled players going inside 50 and some unselfish teammates to dummy lead/put a block on or his position is redundant. Pickett was really lively but his unselfishness actually cost the side a goal or two, hope he's given a licence to be a bit hungrier around the sticks. The last thing you want to do to a small forward is overload them with instructions.

•I didn't like seeing May sooking during the breaks. It's become a common theme and given his performance/physical condition last season I don't think he's earned the right to be berating players.

Anyways, best of luck next week. You guys were atrocious yet still got within a kick so imagine if you actually play well! The talent is there...

 

[djpaulydemon]

Our defensive transitioning was better than usual. Stupid of Scott to park the bus when they could have cut us up if they went faster while our whole midfield were within a 4 m radius of each other. They actually allowed us some time to disperse.

When its obvious they are chipping it around, just man up and play 1 on 1. It isn't that hard, in fact lots of teams to do it. We could have forced a long kick down the line much quicker if we had any inclination to switch from zone to man on man once we were set up.

 

[saj_21]

Our defensive transitioning was better than usual. Stupid of Scott to park the bus when they could have cut us up if they went faster while our whole midfield were within a 4 m radius of each other. They actually allowed us some time to disperse.

When its obvious they are chipping it around, just man up and play 1 on 1. It isn't that hard, in fact lots of teams to do it. We could have forced a long kick down the line much quicker if we had any inclination to switch from zone to man on man once we were set up.

No one plays man on man anymore, no one. If you leave your spot in the zone to man up someone the zone is f@?ked
It’s exactly what Geelong would of wanted

aside from the brain explosions Melkshams 50, Langdon throw to gablett and the debacle of three blokes missing a ball on the goaline we defended pretty well yesterday

 

[schmuttt]

No one plays man on man anymore, no one. If you leave your spot in the zone to man up someone the zone is f@?ked
It’s exactly what Geelong would of wanted

aside from the brain explosions Melkshams 50, Langdon throw to gablett and the debacle of three blokes missing a ball on the goaline we defended pretty well yesterday

Spot on.

People frustrate me when they bag defenders for s**t like that Hawkins shot on goal in the 3rd. Cats had ZERO pressure on the clearance and hit Hawkins up, that isn't the fault of the back 6 at all its the mids applying 0 pressure and ******* the stoppage up.

 

[djpaulydemon]

No one plays man on man anymore, no one. If you leave your spot in the zone to man up someone the zone is f@?ked
It’s exactly what Geelong would of wanted

aside from the brain explosions Melkshams 50, Langdon throw to gablett and the debacle of three blokes missing a ball on the goaline we defended pretty well yesterday

I disagree. Teams play a zone defence but once they have blocked the corridor and the other team chips it around backwards they play closer attention to the man so there is no outlet. Then the team has no options but to kick long to a contest. You're right in that its not a man on man like yesteryear, but there is a time to stop guarding space and put more pressure on the man, we were too slow most of the game, which is noticeable in their uncontested marks.

We did the initial zone right, but failed to play closer to the man and chop off their options once play slowed down. We manned up more aggressively at the end and got a turnover, if we did it more often during the game we might have changed their tactics.

 

[knackers29]

Geelong were horrible.......and they still beat us because we are putrid!
Really feels like Goodwin has coached any football ability out of most of the side, and none of them know how to play any more. That's why Pickett looks so dangerous, he plays on instinct rather than following our horrible game plan. Really only a few blokes for us looked like they still know how to play. Kosi, Petracca (maybe it's finally clicked that he should just go get the pill himself and take the game on), and Hannan, who lead to the right spots, and while he didn't do a whole lot in his first game back, looked dangerous and made good decisions with and without the ball.

 

[Grimesy87]

Jeez hate the post game thread when people just pick someone randomly to bag even though theyve got no reason to.

Topkent has now bagged Petracca after R1 and R3. At what point do you wake up and realise in both games(and vs the Blues too) we used Petracca as a key forward target? If you rewind the game Petracca, as usual, probably made the correct decision every time+for once I saw a Melbourne mid defending goal side of their opponent in a stoppage! When has Viney Brayshaw or Oliver ever done that?

I don’t like Goodwin’s overall one-dimensional philosophy where he just loves all 6 forwards leading to one central point inside F50(and particularly off centre clearances we do this which is terrible) but we did try to hit up leads last night; every team resorts to bombing long occasionally but we found Fritta a few times. Don’t forget how difficult a matchup the Cats are. JKolo Stewart Tuohy Henry O’Connor Bews all very switchable/versatile, Scott making a smart change bringing Harry Taylor out(wish our coach respected the opponents lineups like that). Given we were killing them at ground level popping long to the goal square so TMac can bring it to ground isn’t terrible IF you don’t have that stupid forward press that leaves our defense and mids outnumbered.

The TV angles make people think of Footy as a game of isolated incidents; same with soccer. Really, both are extremely team-dependent. One miscommunication up the field with manning up, vs a good kicking team like Geelong: that equals an uncontested mark for the Cats inside fifty through no fault of our defenders and midfielders.

Like if you’re not at the game(as no one is) HOW can you judge Gawn for “not taking marks.” By watching the replay there wouldn’t have been many contests he was involved in where we either killed the footy or someone was in position to take an intercept mark.

This isn't a bad post and I haven't got the energy to dissect it entirely.

But you're defending players on one game as if it's isolated versions of themselves, or isolated performances. We all love max but he has many games under his sleeve of basically giving up or not being dominant enough (that isn't saying hitouts, it's saying not asserting his dominance on a game, or responding when an inferior player has a dip).

We all watched Melbourne defend 5m off a player and you knew where the kick was going.

Not saying anyone here is bagging our players personally as I hate that and call it myself, but most of us are sick of this picking and choosing when to have ago. Gawn in 2020 has shown he just writes it off as a bad day instead of answering a challenge. 2 average rucks like pittonet and fort have made him look average. Making excuses for our inadequate efforts like camera work or isolated incidents are an absolute pisstske of our supporters here on this forum.

 

[knackers29]

...And Lockhart, I like your endeavour mate but you don't have 25 minutes to decide what to do with the ball! Too slow, maybe needs a few games to get the speed of the game again.

 

[Ando727]

Pardon the intrusion guys but a few observations from yesterday's game...I shared (some of) your frustration as I have quite a few family members and friends who are long suffering Dees fans.

•Melb can't have Viney playing as a receiving midfielder. He has to be the guy winning 1st possession and dishing it out to Petracca, Salem, Bennell et al. Nathan Jones was perennially guilty of this and it seems Viney has fallen into the same trap. He's not fast or silky enough to be exiting the contest and spotting up targets himself. If Jack plays he's got to be the guy at the bottom of the pack with the most mud on his jumper at the final siren. That's on Goodwin.

•Oliver has probably the fastest hands I've seen at afl level. He is ridiculously clean but I think he could delay his handballs a tad to assess/choose better options instead of firing them out like a gatling gun to the first teammate in his field of vision. He might get pinged for htb occasionally but it'll broaden his m.o. and make your midfield far less predictable. I see Oliver as a generational talent but it could be worth approaching someone like Simon Black for a bit of one to one mentoring? He's isn't creative enough by hand right now.

•Petracca isn't always the best decision maker but knows where the goals are and is (finally) sporting an afl standard physique. I'd be isolating him inside 50 as much as possible when he's not in the guts. You can't afford to rest him on the bench given the shortened quarters.

•Gawn kicks too much for a guy with poor footskills. A 2:1 kick to handball ratio is madness. Unless your name is Dean Cox ruckmen should be dishing off to a mid wherever possible. Having said that it's hard to apportion blame if the runners aren't there.
That early goal to Fort was embarrassing though. Shouldn't have happened.

•The back six were pretty solid. Lockhart's lack of composure hurt you but the majority of Geelong's inside 50 marks weren't defendable due to zero pressure on the kicker. Lever in particular looked a class above. Richmond's forwards have been impotent all year so providing your midfield holds up their end of the bargain you should be able to deal with them. Jetta plays.

The forward line was/is a mess. You don't want 90% of your goals coming as a result of flukey, mercurial efforts or opposition mistakes. As soon as Blicavs went to Fritsch the latter should've been instructed to dummy lead and drag him away from the hotspot. Who knows, maybe that actually was Fritsch's intention but the likes of Viney decided to sit the ball on his head deep in the pockets anyway
Not sure where Tom McDonald's at but he's a player that needs space in front of him and is reliant on good delivery.
Again, you need the ball in the hands of skilled players going inside 50 and some unselfish teammates to dummy lead/put a block on or his position is redundant. Pickett was really lively but his unselfishness actually cost the side a goal or two, hope he's given a licence to be a bit hungrier around the sticks. The last thing you want to do to a small forward is overload them with instructions.

•I didn't like seeing May sooking during the breaks. It's become a common theme and given his performance/physical condition last season I don't think he's earned the right to be berating players.

Anyways, best of luck next week. You guys were atrocious yet still got within a kick so imagine if you actually play well! The talent is there...

Would you kindly stop being more knowledgable about my team than I am?

 

[Xhoquelin]

Pardon the intrusion guys but a few observations from yesterday's game...I shared (some of) your frustration as I have quite a few family members and friends who are long suffering Dees fans.

•Melb can't have Viney playing as a receiving midfielder. He has to be the guy winning 1st possession and dishing it out to Petracca, Salem, Bennell et al. Nathan Jones was perennially guilty of this and it seems Viney has fallen into the same trap. He's not fast or silky enough to be exiting the contest and spotting up targets himself. If Jack plays he's got to be the guy at the bottom of the pack with the most mud on his jumper at the final siren. That's on Goodwin.

•Oliver has probably the fastest hands I've seen at afl level. He is ridiculously clean but I think he could delay his handballs a tad to assess/choose better options instead of firing them out like a gatling gun to the first teammate in his field of vision. He might get pinged for htb occasionally but it'll broaden his m.o. and make your midfield far less predictable. I see Oliver as a generational talent but it could be worth approaching someone like Simon Black for a bit of one to one mentoring? He's isn't creative enough by hand right now.

•Petracca isn't always the best decision maker but knows where the goals are and is (finally) sporting an afl standard physique. I'd be isolating him inside 50 as much as possible when he's not in the guts. You can't afford to rest him on the bench given the shortened quarters.

•Gawn kicks too much for a guy with poor footskills. A 2:1 kick to handball ratio is madness. Unless your name is Dean Cox ruckmen should be dishing off to a mid wherever possible. Having said that it's hard to apportion blame if the runners aren't there.
That early goal to Fort was embarrassing though. Shouldn't have happened.

•The back six were pretty solid. Lockhart's lack of composure hurt you but the majority of Geelong's inside 50 marks weren't defendable due to zero pressure on the kicker. Lever in particular looked a class above. Richmond's forwards have been impotent all year so providing your midfield holds up their end of the bargain you should be able to deal with them. Jetta plays.

The forward line was/is a mess. You don't want 90% of your goals coming as a result of flukey, mercurial efforts or opposition mistakes. As soon as Blicavs went to Fritsch the latter should've been instructed to dummy lead and drag him away from the hotspot. Who knows, maybe that actually was Fritsch's intention but the likes of Viney decided to sit the ball on his head deep in the pockets anyway
Not sure where Tom McDonald's at but he's a player that needs space in front of him and is reliant on good delivery.
Again, you need the ball in the hands of skilled players going inside 50 and some unselfish teammates to dummy lead/put a block on or his position is redundant. Pickett was really lively but his unselfishness actually cost the side a goal or two, hope he's given a licence to be a bit hungrier around the sticks. The last thing you want to do to a small forward is overload them with instructions.

•I didn't like seeing May sooking during the breaks. It's become a common theme and given his performance/physical condition last season I don't think he's earned the right to be berating players.

Anyways, best of luck next week. You guys were atrocious yet still got within a kick so imagine if you actually play well! The talent is there...

Lot of good stuff here. Great, great insight, coherent thoughts too and not just mouthing off at players without backing it up. Appreciate this a lot man.

But I'm gonna defend May. Of our defense, only Lever and May actually know where to be. Nev is a converted winger/forward, one of the best one on one guys there is, but positionally not that strong. Then you have Lockhart Salem Hibbo Smith...all converted into defenders.
Our defense's weakness has always been communication and positioning. May knows what he's doing down back, but the unit needs to become more functional. The only way you do that is through communication. May's performance isn't in question last year IMO, I think generally 1 on 1 he's very very good, he definitely isn't playing at an AA level consistently as a Dee so far, but more stuff like the game on the weekend would be great and yeah still I am more than happy for him to mouth off because even guys like Nev and Hibbo need a rocket up their arse with regards to team defense IMO. Because May on his worst day>>>Hibbo, Nev, Wags, Smith, Salo, anyone bar Lever really in the last year or so(and 2019 Jakey was not up to scratch).

So if May is sooking consistently even after our defense works themselves out(which won't happen until second half of this season) IMO you're right, until then I'm defending the guy.

Viney cannot play as the guy winning 1st possession more than 30% of the time. Not in this side, not in this midfield. Clarry is just way better, as you said clean hands, still the best in the comp at getting it at ground level IMO. If Viney wants to play in the guts next to Clarry, he 100% has to play as the receiving midfielder IMO. He is definitely fast enough, his kicking is underrated. His inability to spread from a contest is more an overall lack of footy IQ; which shows when he takes up defensive positions at stoppages, which shows when he has the ball in tight areas(tunnel vision, unlike Clarry and Trac). I agree overall though; hence why I want him playing 70-80% TOG as a forward pocket pressure forward a la Atkins, only playing inside mid when Clarry is on the bench and Vines can play that role at the coalface. But overall, I think Vines played probably one of his better games as a "spreading" midfielder on the weekend in terms of spreading from the contest and making himself an option for Clarry; just slipped at some inopportune times, and his kicking under pressure has never been great.

Forwards are a mess for sure. We love to have all our forwards occupy similar areas for some reason. Out of centre clearances all 6 of our forwards often lead to one central point 25m out directly in front and it is maddening. Need forwards leading into the pockets and such, giving TMac a chance vs 1-2 defenders rather than plonking it on his head in packs of 5+ players(altho he crashed packs well vs Cats). I'd say with Fritsch though I don't mind him occupying central areas, he is very good one on one when he isn't dropping gimmes like he was vs the Cats, uses his body well; I need Hunt, Vandenberg, Melksham, basically anyone who isn't TMac/Fritsch/Kozzy, leading into wider areas way more; and yeah even TMac/Fritta/Kozzy need to work it out because you can't have all 3 of them in similar areas.

Gawny by foot is good IMO. Good decision maker, good kick. That mark TMac took; that's a pretty good kick by Maxy, weighted to perfection. I definitely think he should be handballing more, maybe you're referring to general play and in that case I'd agree because most rucks inherently dispose of the ball slower than a mid would.

Lockhart got done a few times but composure seems to be his strength down back. R1 he was fantastic; dodging tackles, using it well. I don't really care about the HTB stuff as much as I care about his poor defensive positioning. Just struggled with the speed a few times; he'll get back up to speed.

Wonder if one of Salem/Lockhart should be playing more up the ground though I must say, with how good Riv looks and Hibbo looking rejuvenated. May Lever Nev Hibbo Riv Smith looks a strong back 6, only need one more guy rotating through there. But again...do we keep Viney in the side or not? Honestly, when fully fit(i.e. when Bennell is actually tackling, when Vanders is up to speed) is Viney in the best 22? Assuming Salo or Lockhart moves up the field I'd argue not at this stage unless he keeps improving his ability to play that receiving role in the centre circle.

 

[Xhoquelin]

This isn't a bad post and I haven't got the energy to dissect it entirely.

But you're defending players on one game as if it's isolated versions of themselves, or isolated performances. We all love max but he has many games under his sleeve of basically giving up or not being dominant enough (that isn't saying hitouts, it's saying not asserting his dominance on a game, or responding when an inferior player has a dip).

We all watched Melbourne defend 5m off a player and you knew where the kick was going.

Not saying anyone here is bagging our players personally as I hate that and call it myself, but most of us are sick of this picking and choosing when to have ago. Gawn in 2020 has shown he just writes it off as a bad day instead of answering a challenge. 2 average rucks like pittonet and fort have made him look average. Making excuses for our inadequate efforts like camera work or isolated incidents are an absolute pisstske of our supporters here on this forum.

1. Pittonet is pretty clearly a solid ruck
2. Maxy did not look ordinary against Fort. He's had games with much more impact but he still pretty clearly was a few levels above Fort on the day. You really think Maxy didn't "have a go" vs the Cats? He took the big mark and had the big goal assist to TMac late game. Goody not putting him in a position to succeed is not an indictment on Gawny.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Spot on.

People frustrate me when they bag defenders for sh*t like that Hawkins shot on goal in the 3rd. Cats had ZERO pressure on the clearance and hit Hawkins up, that isn't the fault of the back 6 at all its the mids applying 0 pressure and ******* the stoppage up.

I’ve been saying for ages that we would be the most difficult team to play in the back 6 for. I honestly thought Langdon and Tomlinson would go a long way towards fixing the issue of midfield pressure but they’ve done FA it seems.

 

[schmuttt]

I’ve been saying for ages that we would be the most difficult team to play in the back 6 for. I honestly thought Langdon and Tomlinson would go a long way towards fixing the issue of midfield pressure but they’ve done FA it seems.

The issue is still too many guys trying to win the ball.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

The issue is still too many guys trying to win the ball.

That and general laziness. Have seen better two way running in junior and social sport.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

I reckon we’d get a lot out of having a go at someone like Rory Sloane at the end of the year if we off one of our midfielders. There’s no maturity or leadership in that group. Sidebottom/Yeo type would be unattainable but I’d love to get Sloane or Boak across.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Maybe it was a mistake to never train someone like ANB who is great defensively in his natural position and give all of the mid spots to front runners.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

I reckon we’d get a lot out of having a go at someone like Rory Sloane at the end of the year if we off one of our midfielders. There’s no maturity or leadership in that group. Sidebottom/Yeo type would be unattainable but I’d love to get Sloane or Boak across.

Just what we need, more inside plodders.

 

[Dory_77]

I reckon we’d get a lot out of having a go at someone like Rory Sloane at the end of the year if we off one of our midfielders. There’s no maturity or leadership in that group. Sidebottom/Yeo type would be unattainable but I’d love to get Sloane or Boak across.

Sloane and Boak are both pretty inside types though. They're not gonna fix our lack of good outside users.