No Opposition Supporters General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 4

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Holy Rioli

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New York used to have an obscene crime rate, especially with regards to murder in the late 80s. The New York police force were at an absolute loss with how to deal with the situation, with almost 2000 people murdered in New York City in 1989. The fact is in the late 80's and early 90's New York City was a terrifying city.

Rudi Giuliani was elected major in 1989 and was desperate to address the issue, holding grave fears for what will happen to this great city if crime, and in particular the murder rate isn't brought under control and sought answers from a variety of firms and agencies. William Bratton who was the Chief of the Transit Police put forward an idea that fare evasion was an enabler or a starting point for crime, and that a significant amount of the violent crime in New York occurred inside or very near a subway station. At the time New York police took no action for fare evasion, because quite simply the effort arrest someone, take them down to the station, book them and then show up in court at a later date simply wasn't worth the effort.

The mayor's office agreed that it would crack down on fare evasion, booking each and every person who attempted to evade a subway fare. Even with a significant increase in police presence it wasn't practical to take each person down to a station to book them at the time they were caught, so the police would arrest each fare evader and chain them up inside the subway together until the end of their shift and then book them all together, meaning fare evaders quickly learned that not only would they get booked, they would typically spend hours chained up inside the subway station first.

Crime in and around the subways started to reduce almost immediately but it took about 4 years before there was a significant drop in the murder rate in NYC. But by making a culture change regarding how fare evasion was policed, NYC saw a significant drop in all types of violent crime, and also took the Subway away from violent criminals as a place to commit their crimes. In 2017 there were 270 murders, representing an 85% decrease in the murder rate compared to 1990.

It might have been a total pain in the ass as a decent human to have been chained up for 10 hours and then to be booked for evading a $1 fare, but it worked. That decent person is now a lot safer in general in NYC.

I'd like to think I'm a decent person, but I can admit I've booed at the footy (and probably will do so in the future, but more so with respect to an action or incident as it happens at the time), I've said not so friendly things to umpires when I don't agree with some decisions, and if I was the Richmond cheer squad member who copped the 3 game cheer squad ban for a fairly minor incident, I'd be pretty pi**ed off. But sometimes we've gotta take drastic action to achieve a culture change, and that culture change may mean a decent person/family doesn't get belted at the footy when someone is too drunk and reacts poorly to what is happening at the game. Culture change is why now people call out other fans when something racist, sexist or homophobic is said at games. For our great game to remain a great game, for people to feel safe and included in our game, we need to have the right culture established at the most basic of levels. There is no place for abuse in our great game, even when our umpires are wrong.

Just as a side note, in Feb 2018, NYC decided they'd reverse the decision made in 1989 to book all fare evaders, I just hope the subway is still a safe mode of transport for me when I visit in early 2020.
 

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Carl Spackler

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New York used to have an obscene crime rate, especially with regards to murder in the late 80s. The New York police force were at an absolute loss with how to deal with the situation, with almost 2000 people murdered in New York City in 1989. The fact is in the late 80's and early 90's New York City was a terrifying city.

Rudi Giuliani was elected major in 1989 and was desperate to address the issue, holding grave fears for what will happen to this great city if crime, and in particular the murder rate isn't brought under control and sought answers from a variety of firms and agencies. William Bratton who was the Chief of the Transit Police put forward an idea that fare evasion was an enabler or a starting point for crime, and that a significant amount of the violent crime in New York occurred inside or very near a subway station. At the time New York police took no action for fare evasion, because quite simply the effort arrest someone, take them down to the station, book them and then show up in court at a later date simply wasn't worth the effort.

The mayor's office agreed that it would crack down on fare evasion, booking each and every person who attempted to evade a subway fare. Even with a significant increase in police presence it wasn't practical to take each person down to a station to book them at the time they were caught, so the police would arrest each fare evader and chain them up inside the subway together until the end of their shift and then book them all together, meaning fare evaders quickly learned that not only would they get booked, they would typically spend hours chained up inside the subway station first.

Crime in and around the subways started to reduce almost immediately but it took about 4 years before there was a significant drop in the murder rate in NYC. But by making a culture change regarding how fare evasion was policed, NYC saw a significant drop in all types of violent crime, and also took the Subway away from violent criminals as a place to commit their crimes. In 2017 there were 270 murders, representing an 85% decrease in the murder rate compared to 1990.

It might have been a total pain in the ass as a decent human to have been chained up for 10 hours and then to be booked for evading a $1 fare, but it worked. That decent person is now a lot safer in general in NYC.

I'd like to think I'm a decent person, but I can admit I've booed at the footy (and probably will do so in the future, but more so with respect to an action or incident as it happens at the time), I've said not so friendly things to umpires when I don't agree with some decisions, and if I was the Richmond cheer squad member who copped the 3 game cheer squad ban for a fairly minor incident, I'd be pretty pi**ed off. But sometimes we've gotta take drastic action to achieve a culture change, and that culture change may mean a decent person/family doesn't get belted at the footy when someone is too drunk and reacts poorly to what is happening at the game. Culture change is why now people call out other fans when something racist, sexist or homophobic is said at games. For our great game to remain a great game, for people to feel safe and included in our game, we need to have the right culture established at the most basic of levels. There is no place for abuse in our great game, even when our umpires are wrong.

Just as a side note, in Feb 2018, NYC decided they'd reverse the decision made in 1989 to book all fare evaders, I just hope the subway is still a safe mode of transport for me when I visit in early 2020.
The flaw in your story (good though it is) is that New York cracked down on actual crimes.
 

Gralin

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The flaw in your story (good though it is) is that New York cracked down on actual crimes.
Except swearing in public is illegal if the police choose to enforce it, same with being drunk or refusing to move on when the police ask you to or being a nuisance etc.

It's at the low end of the scale, same as fare evading compared to assault or robbery, but it's still illegal.

So I'd say the story is pretty on point
 

Viddiot

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I think what we all have to remember is collectively, the world has lost it's mind.
AFL throwing people out.
F1 is clearly broken.
erm...they're the only sports I follow...LOL.

My point is, globally, as a species we are failing at every level. The umpiring has been extremely poor (in terms of consistency) in almost every game this year.
The whole Goal Review thing is a further blow. (It's been obvious for a few years they DON'T review EVERY goal, and the commentators seem strangely just as baffled about that as us.)

I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps society globally is evolving. Perhaps society has become hyper sensitized? I still let the F-bomb go sometimes regardless of whose kids are in earshot. Hahahaha.

70th anniversary of '1984' is here....thoughtcrime is a thing....almost. Don't Booo Ablett. Don't shout your frustations at the umps. Drink responsibly, and lock the doors before you go to bed (lock yourself IN.)
 

Brant

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"Name an occupation anywhere in the world where an employer will tell their staff that being abused is just part of the job?"

Fantastic to know being shot at, held hostage, stabbed, ambushed or blown to bits doesn't constitute being "abused"..... or that none of those things are as harmful as being called nasty names by co-workers. :drunk:
If we worked together & you carried on like this, I’d call you names...

Stupid post.
 

Holy Rioli

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The flaw in your story (good though it is) is that New York cracked down on actual crimes.
Absolutely they did, there was only so much I wanted to write about the topic because it was already long winded. It started with fare evasion though. There was also a theory people who evade fares are more likely to conduct or have conducted criminal activity compared to those that don't evade fares. They also had the idea to check each person arrested for weapons or outstanding warrants. If memory serves me correct 1-7 fare evaders had a weapon, and 1-21 had an arrest warrant out. Then there was the shame of being part of a chain gang inside a subway in front of the fare paying citizens.

The project was such a success Giuliani appointed Bratton as NYC police commissioner in 1994.
 

cb16

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I hardly get to games these days . Was out our game against Geelong this year and really couldn’t believe how bad the abuse towards the umps , players and other supporters was .
Both sides too. Maybe I was just in a bad part of the ground.
I don’t think I’m easily shocked . I’m pretty competitive. Have had some pretty ordinary stuff directed at me on a cricket field and a few seasons supporting the local Soccer side in the Uk well , refs there are lucky to get out of the 5-7k capacity ground alive .

But this was really bad , non stop abuse. My 3 year old is bugging me to go to a game . No way I can take the chance and have her being in that type of environment.

Some people might see it as a whinge but as a society aren’t we just better then having to abuse people ?
Maybe I’m just getting old !
I somewhat agree. I still go to a lot of games, but the entitlement of supporters these days is nothing like it was in the 90s. In days gone by the abuse at umpires was still there, but it was almost more in jest and with a bit of humour attached. These days it is non stop relentless, direct and often personal, and really tricky to rationalise when you have your young kids there with you. The amount of times I've been asked by my kids what the "c-word" means is nuts. That all been said, the umpiring has been pretty awful these past few years which the AFL has a bit to answer for. But it doesn't excuse the abuse.
 
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Bumps"N"Grins

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I’m not the one making the workplace case. I’m making the case against “it’s been fine for a long time so it should still be fine”.

There’s plenty of things in society that were once socially acceptable and perfectly legal. But we progress and things change.
Or regress?
 

Buzz Hawk

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That said, Giuliani’s “broken window” philosophy had merit and was probably what NY needed at the time.
That he has become such a flake and fool since is sad but he did some good things.
Two and a half stars.
 

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Holy Rioli

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You lost me at Rudy Giuliani.
But anyhow, society and culture board.
Mate, the point I was making was relevant to the discussion regarding crowd behaviour at AFL matches.

To completely dismiss it because you don't like Giuliani is just plain ignorant. I don't have a personal opinion on the man himself, but the data speaks for itself.
 

Buzz Hawk

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Mate, the point I was making was relevant to the discussion regarding crowd behaviour at AFL matches.

To completely dismiss it because you don't like Giuliani is just plain ignorant. I don't have a personal opinion on the man himself, but the data speaks for itself.
Not disagreeing with you. I did say his actions had some merit and much of what you posted is a reflection of his broken windows philosophy. Ie, a criminal breaks a window, we either leave it and he breaks another one or we fix it now and deter him.
New York is a very safe place to visit but mind you so is the rest of America. Crime rates have declined dramatically in the last 50 years, despite their ludicrous gun laws.
 

Noneedforaname

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Boyo boy wowee!
How did we get here!
Yep, today's forum pi**ing contest was brought to you by some CCP inspired stooges at AFL house.
The recent antics have been a fitting tribute to the AFLs new global partners. A glorious mimicry of crowd control, an homage to the thought police and propagandists of our new special friends, those benevolent tyrants.
fu**, they know how to put on a show. Have you clapping and cheering on cue. Questioning a cadre umpire? It's off to re-education camp somewhere for you.

I have a beautiful vision of lauding, happy fans cheering what is allegedly a game of football. Just for dramatic effect, envision the poor stooges roped into cheer the North Korean rocket man for some propaganda piece. Eating s**t and liking it.
We're not so far off.
I reckon we could have the likes of our own Dapper Jong running the show. He could finally get some of these non compliant, slandering, anti social, supplement unbelievers up against the wall where they belong.

But, fu**it. Just stop with the part time umpires. Amateurs. Do gooding volunteers who could never get a kick. Get professionals. PAY THEM REALISTIC MONEY AND LIFT THE STANDARD OF THE GAME.

Umpires. Stop being such chicken s**ts and go on strike. Demand the AFL Stop putting you in the position where you cannot reasonably do your job properly due to head office agendas and interference. They are every bit to blame for putting you in front of a crowd where you can't perform your jobs competently, as some dickheed abusers on the other side of the fence. Dickheads don't help, but they aren't 100% to blame.

And what of Dangerfield, won't organise the players to demand a better standard of umpiring across the league? A more governable system of rules that can be reasonably adjudicated and applied fairly, in the spirit of the game, to the satisfaction of the players and spectators??? Not while he and his mate's are getting paid off by the league every second week. Grow some balls Danger, represent ALL the players for the good of the game, nstead of having them kissed by the umpiring department on a weekly basis.
 

Alite

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New York used to have an obscene crime rate, especially with regards to murder in the late 80s. The New York police force were at an absolute loss with how to deal with the situation, with almost 2000 people murdered in New York City in 1989. The fact is in the late 80's and early 90's New York City was a terrifying city.

Rudi Giuliani was elected major in 1989 and was desperate to address the issue, holding grave fears for what will happen to this great city if crime, and in particular the murder rate isn't brought under control and sought answers from a variety of firms and agencies. William Bratton who was the Chief of the Transit Police put forward an idea that fare evasion was an enabler or a starting point for crime, and that a significant amount of the violent crime in New York occurred inside or very near a subway station. At the time New York police took no action for fare evasion, because quite simply the effort arrest someone, take them down to the station, book them and then show up in court at a later date simply wasn't worth the effort.

The mayor's office agreed that it would crack down on fare evasion, booking each and every person who attempted to evade a subway fare. Even with a significant increase in police presence it wasn't practical to take each person down to a station to book them at the time they were caught, so the police would arrest each fare evader and chain them up inside the subway together until the end of their shift and then book them all together, meaning fare evaders quickly learned that not only would they get booked, they would typically spend hours chained up inside the subway station first.

Crime in and around the subways started to reduce almost immediately but it took about 4 years before there was a significant drop in the murder rate in NYC. But by making a culture change regarding how fare evasion was policed, NYC saw a significant drop in all types of violent crime, and also took the Subway away from violent criminals as a place to commit their crimes. In 2017 there were 270 murders, representing an 85% decrease in the murder rate compared to 1990.

It might have been a total pain in the ass as a decent human to have been chained up for 10 hours and then to be booked for evading a $1 fare, but it worked. That decent person is now a lot safer in general in NYC.

I'd like to think I'm a decent person, but I can admit I've booed at the footy (and probably will do so in the future, but more so with respect to an action or incident as it happens at the time), I've said not so friendly things to umpires when I don't agree with some decisions, and if I was the Richmond cheer squad member who copped the 3 game cheer squad ban for a fairly minor incident, I'd be pretty pi**ed off. But sometimes we've gotta take drastic action to achieve a culture change, and that culture change may mean a decent person/family doesn't get belted at the footy when someone is too drunk and reacts poorly to what is happening at the game. Culture change is why now people call out other fans when something racist, sexist or homophobic is said at games. For our great game to remain a great game, for people to feel safe and included in our game, we need to have the right culture established at the most basic of levels. There is no place for abuse in our great game, even when our umpires are wrong.

Just as a side note, in Feb 2018, NYC decided they'd reverse the decision made in 1989 to book all fare evaders, I just hope the subway is still a safe mode of transport for me when I visit in early 2020.
The Dunedin study (actual term: Dunedin Multidisciplinary Health and Development Study) was set up in 1972 to follow 1037 people from Dunedin, NZ, throughout their lives (96% of the kids born are now adults and are still contributing to this study). One guy, who is in prison for life in the USA, wants to stay in the study as (paraphrased) “He will do more for science than most”. And he is right.
A 2nd study that followed the Dunedin Study was done in America. It turns out that the levels of youth unhappiness is the same in both NZ and the USA as well as the level of violence!! Dunedin, NewZealand has the same level of violence as the USA.
But here is the big difference: the homicide and suicide rate in the USA is through the roof compared to NZ.
There are 52.6 Homicides per 100,000 people in the USA vs 0.9 in NZ.
The tendency towards violence is the same yet in the USA so many more people die.
Gee I wish someone could rifle trough this and find the amo to figure this out. If someone is gunner figure it out, I’d shoot at a target and say it would be important 🤪


As to Rudy:
Rudy Guiliani was an advocate for gun control. Now he is Trump’s mouthpiece and Trump wants to placate his gun toaten mid-West and southern base.
Watch Rudy change his stance. My guess is that he will do whatever he thinks will make him popular, or more accurately: famous.
To be clear, I thought Guiliani was awesome post 9/11. Now I think he is destroying his legacy.


Extra:
I “boo” a bad decision and a player who has done a “dog” act.
I did not like Israel’s re-post but think there is an overreaction (even for recidivism) on Rugby’s part.
The commentary on the booing of Ablett is nonsensical. Ablett jumped clubs, is a very good player, and then “liked” something many other people don’t agree with. People can boo him for many reasons: commentators should know that,
 
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Alite

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“For our great game to remain a great game, for people to feel safe and included in our game, we need to have the right culture established at the most basic of levels. There is no place for abuse in our great game, even when our umpires are wrong.”

Well said!

My boy has no talent with ball in hand. But he can run and is learning the game.
If he chooses to be an umpire ... I’ll support that with trepidation! No-one likes the umpire!
If he choose to be an umpire in our great game then I’ll support him.

But if people disparage my boy as an umpire I’ll be very angry 😡. And most likely right behind them.

Note: my boy is near blackbelt. I pity to boy who will go at him.
 
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Mitchell Madness

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Melbourne have a list that's too good to be 3-9.

How has it happened?

How Melbourne to go in premiership fancies and then have season over before the bye.
List isn't that good.
It's bulldog 2016 level, things click and they'll look like world beater, but in reality, they are not
 
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