List Management 2018: Make room for the super draft.

[MasterSamurai]

I agree that Lovell and miles should stay.
Particularly Lovell. Still hold out hope that it will click for him soon.
Plus, it’s better than a speculative DFA or a very late pick clogging the list.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

2 picks the draft and the first one isn't until 53? I'm worried about where we will be in 10 years time. Am I the only one completely let down by what we did this trade period? Managed to lose our brightest young star, have nothing to take into an apparent super draft, brought in a guy who has huge questions marks over his fitness and is turning 28 years old. Our issue has been the elite young talent coming through. Have done nothing to rectify this. Scrimshaw possibly, but still questions marks over him as well.

Yeah it's since been reported whilst the top 7 or 8 are quality the rest of the draft is no different from any other.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Pretty sure Sic and Hardwick are still on our list unless I've missed something? If you're going to try and troll get better at it.

I didn't want it to come across as trolling. Throughout 2017 I was positive about our future when many weren't. In 2018 I had us at least making a semi final when many thought we would miss finals again. Going into 2019 I felt we needed to address the pace issue and look at adding a quality midfielder if possible. That, coupled with going to the draft and nailing 4 or so picks had me very excited once again.
After the trade period we are now down a swingman and a bloke who looked like being a 200+ game star in the future.
We are taking two picks to the draft with the first not coming until 53.
We brought in a speculative kid to 'replace' Burton but time will tell on that one.
I am hearing a lot of concerning reports about Tom Scully, and since the Giants gave him up for peanuts I have to think there is some merit to those concerns.
And we scored a freakish, gun player but one who I don't feel as high on the list of the sort of player we required.
Feel very flat coming out of the trade period and i'm honestly not as excited about our next few years as I wish I was.
Obviously very happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Gralin]

2 picks the draft and the first one isn't until 53? I'm worried about where we will be in 10 years time. Am I the only one completely let down by what we did this trade period? Managed to lose our brightest young star, have nothing to take into an apparent super draft, brought in a guy who has huge questions marks over his fitness and is turning 28 years old. Our issue has been the elite young talent coming through. Have done nothing to rectify this. Scrimshaw possibly, but still questions marks over him as well.

We don't have two picks. Clubs really have as many picks as they need and the reality is that mid round picks get pushed back due to academy bidding and compo while late picks get pushed forward when clubs start passing.

We can use as many picks as we have list spots, we have to use 3 no matter what but they can include rookie upgrades, so if there is nobody out there we like at our last couple of picks we can upgrade Glass (pretty much guaranteed when he signed his extension) and someone else if we need to.

Add to that rookie can play and we can pick up mature age players like Mirra and we can sort out some depth even with little in the way of early picks.

Losing Burton hurts for sure, but we kept Sic and Hardwick who both performed better this year, we kept Morrison and Worpel who will both be better after another preseason.

If Birch is back he can easily cover what Burton did for a year or two, if not well we have other options with guys like Scrimshaw and O'Brien to play as a rebounding tall.

Wingard is elite and doesn't turn 26 until halfway through next year. He's got plenty of footy in front of him and he slots right into that age and experience bracket we need

Scully is elite and the kind of player like Smith who can keep going post 30, sure there are questions over his ankle but for a future 4th there is very little risk in that move. Get him on the park at even 80% of what he was and it's massive

Scrimshaw may not have shown much yet but he's 18 months younger than Burton, was a top 10 pick (which I know means nothing now other than he was a talented junior) and was at a rabble of a club that didn't want to play him for political reasons as much as anything. We also got him for a 3rd round pick.

So we traded in two elite players, both near the best in the league in their roles, one with injury concerns I grant you, and a promising kid who hasn't been given a proper chance.

We traded out some picks which may or may not have turned into decent players and a very promising kid of our own.

Next year Wingard makes us better than Burton. If one of the other two come on we are even better, if both do we are massively better. Club has attempted to turn one classy player into 3, they have 1 in the bag, one who will be if his ankle is fine (and they know more about the ankle than we do) and one potential classy player.

I'm hoping by the end of next year people are looking back and wondering how we got those three in so cheap and bitching about free agency again

But at the very least I'm glad the club is willing to take risks to improve the list, not just draft kids and wait four years to see if it works

 

[KermitJagger]

We don't have two picks. Clubs really have as many picks as they need and the reality is that mid round picks get pushed back due to academy bidding and compo while late picks get pushed forward when clubs start passing.

We can use as many picks as we have list spots, we have to use 3 no matter what but they can include rookie upgrades, so if there is nobody out there we like at our last couple of picks we can upgrade Glass (pretty much guaranteed when he signed his extension) and someone else if we need to.

Add to that rookie can play and we can pick up mature age players like Mirra and we can sort out some depth even with little in the way of early picks.

Losing Burton hurts for sure, but we kept Sic and Hardwick who both performed better this year, we kept Morrison and Worpel who will both be better after another preseason.

If Birch is back he can easily cover what Burton did for a year or two, if not well we have other options with guys like Scrimshaw and O'Brien to play as a rebounding tall.

Wingard is elite and doesn't turn 26 until halfway through next year. He's got plenty of footy in front of him and he slots right into that age and experience bracket we need

Scully is elite and the kind of player like Smith who can keep going post 30, sure there are questions over his ankle but for a future 4th there is very little risk in that move. Get him on the park at even 80% of what he was and it's massive

Scrimshaw may not have shown much yet but he's 18 months younger than Burton, was a top 10 pick (which I know means nothing now other than he was a talented junior) and was at a rabble of a club that didn't want to play him for political reasons as much as anything. We also got him for a 3rd round pick.

So we traded in two elite players, both near the best in the league in their roles, one with injury concerns I grant you, and a promising kid who hasn't been given a proper chance.

We traded out some picks which may or may not have turned into decent players and a very promising kid of our own.

Next year Wingard makes us better than Burton. If one of the other two come on we are even better, if both do we are massively better. Club has attempted to turn one classy player into 3, they have 1 in the bag, one who will be if his ankle is fine (and they know more about the ankle than we do) and one potential classy player.

I'm hoping by the end of next year people are looking back and wondering how we got those three in so cheap and bitching about free agency again

But at the very least I'm glad the club is willing to take risks to improve the list, not just draft kids and wait four years to see if it works

The sum of what we gained and ongoing internal development from younger players like Sicily, Hardwick, Worpel, Morrison, Lewis and even Hanrahan and Moore will be greater than what we're losing in Burton. Sic and Hardwick haven't reached their potential yet.

There will be no significant drop off from any player, save for maybe Burgoyne - but we will be depending on him a lot less next year anyway, he will still be as mercurial as ever in patches which will be his only requirement. If Puopolo drops off any more, we have more than capable replacements in Moore and Hanrahan waiting in the wings. If Frawley struggles, we have capable players in the seconds and our team defense and high press tends to stop the ball from getting to them too often anyway.

No one brought in this off season will stifle the development of any other player, because they're not replacing any incumbents who are still playing. Scrimshaw/Birchall will cover off Burton's role, Wingard takes over from Rioli, and Scully will occupy the vacancy never quite filled after Hill departed. A fit Scully also stops opposition teams from clamping down on Smith to stifle our run, as a lot do.

Exciting time to follow the club.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

We can use picks from next year if needed but I highly doubt that, any pick after 43 doesn't require any points with the 197 point discount. I doubt mozzie will get selected before then so we get him for free.

Thanks for this. So if Mozzie is still available at 53, are we best to pick him up then or once it gets past 43 we can get him anytime?

 

[Slick]

Thanks for this. So if Mozzie is still available at 53, are we best to pick him up then or once it gets past 43 we can get him anytime?

If hes' available at 53 we pass on him, pick up someone else and wait until someone bids on him and take him then. That way we get two talented young players rather than wait until pick 90 for our next pick.

 

[Dewnior]

Apparently we want to keep Burton, 35 & our Future 1st and still get Wingard, Scully & Scrimshaw. Impressive.

That wish didn't work out too well for us did it

 

[Dewnior]

Now that the trade period is over you would think that Whitecross, Miles and Lovell will all be delisted. No idea about Henderson. Mirra and Jones to be retained for another year on the rookie list.

I hope we keep Miles, surely he's better than what we'll get with a pick in the hundreds.

Besides, would hate for Geelol to pick him up as a DFA.

 

[Cyril_Grip]

Minchington is rubbish, I wouldn't mind Sam Mitchell doing his magic with Lovell. Hopefully we hold onto Miles, Geelong seem preoccupied with the Tim Kelly deal.

Jason Cripps owes us a sweet swap of picks for Karl Amon after his bs.


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Do we even need a Minchington type after Dylan Moore's back end of the season? I'm Perth based so not completely sure how comparable the two are having not seen either live in action, but the highlights I've seen of Moore look promising. That and Hanrahan has shown flashes as well.

 

[Chioli]

I didn't want it to come across as trolling. Throughout 2017 I was positive about our future when many weren't. In 2018 I had us at least making a semi final when many thought we would miss finals again. Going into 2019 I felt we needed to address the pace issue and look at adding a quality midfielder if possible. That, coupled with going to the draft and nailing 4 or so picks had me very excited once again.
After the trade period we are now down a swingman and a bloke who looked like being a 200+ game star in the future.
We are taking two picks to the draft with the first not coming until 53.
We brought in a speculative kid to 'replace' Burton but time will tell on that one.
I am hearing a lot of concerning reports about Tom Scully, and since the Giants gave him up for peanuts I have to think there is some merit to those concerns.
And we scored a freakish, gun player but one who I don't feel as high on the list of the sort of player we required.
Feel very flat coming out of the trade period and i'm honestly not as excited about our next few years as I wish I was.
Obviously very happy to be proven wrong.

I’m pretty sure neither Hawthorn, Port Adelaide or even Burton’s manager believe he is a star. Fans and media do. He’s not a swingman. He’s a nice user of the footy and he wins uncontested footy.

Sicily went so far past Burton as our brightest young player this year. Worpel has come on and will be a very nice mid, Morrison will continue to develop, Dylan Moore will be very close to our round 1 side.

We missed Shiel and Lynch but managed to get Wingard who imo is a freak. Scully is 27 and when we get him fit will change the way our midfield operates.

If you look at the age of the top 10 in our bnf
Mitchell, Hardwick, Smith, Gunston O’Meara Breust Stratton McEvoy shiels Sicily and then add Wingard and Scully we have our 12 best players 30 or under and then we have guys like worpel Morrison Howe doing a lot of the grunt work.

Imo Rough, Frawley, Burgoyne, Henderson, Birchall are now in our bottom 6-8 which I think is fantastic as we are slowly transitioning them out. The media acts like they are our best players but I think Clarko is building a list underneath these guys and we are not far away

 

[burner1]

With a far tougher draw next year (which is a given) or a couple of injuries we could easily miss the finals.

We have a group of top end talent but really weak bottom 6 and limited talent coming through - the pressure of finals showed the difference in talent. With essentially a full list Duryea was still in our best 22 for finals. Our kpp stocks are also pretty diabolical. Let’s hope for a good injury run again as not much depth.

We were ultimately a fair way off the pace this year. Not convinced the additions (eg wingard) and any natural improvements, offset by the declines of senior players will be enough to push us into contention. But side is potentially worse in 2020 (with retirements etc) so need a big 2019.

A lot is riding on Lewis / Nash / glass / worpel / Moore / Morrison etc making it - all are late picks and odds against it + Scully and scrimshaw coming good.

Do we stack up better than WCE / pies / tigers - IMO we’re a level below.

 

[Death Cab]

Do we stack up better than WCE / pies / tigers - IMO we’re a level below.

I reckon our list is about 10% ‘below’ those sides, but... the combo of culture, mental state/focus, coaching and injuries accounts for at least 25% of the picture.

Injuries hit hard and we’re well off the pace. The rest I’m confident in, which will see us challenge for top 4 and smokies again next year.

 

[Goldnbrown]

I didn't want it to come across as trolling. Throughout 2017 I was positive about our future when many weren't. In 2018 I had us at least making a semi final when many thought we would miss finals again. Going into 2019 I felt we needed to address the pace issue and look at adding a quality midfielder if possible. That, coupled with going to the draft and nailing 4 or so picks had me very excited once again.
After the trade period we are now down a swingman and a bloke who looked like being a 200+ game star in the future.
We are taking two picks to the draft with the first not coming until 53.
We brought in a speculative kid to 'replace' Burton but time will tell on that one.
I am hearing a lot of concerning reports about Tom Scully, and since the Giants gave him up for peanuts I have to think there is some merit to those concerns.
And we scored a freakish, gun player but one who I don't feel as high on the list of the sort of player we required.
Feel very flat coming out of the trade period and i'm honestly not as excited about our next few years as I wish I was.
Obviously very happy to be proven wrong.

You don't think that Wingard is what we need?? at both our finals this year it was clear how badly we missed Rioli, had we had him in that game against Melbourne, he could have made the difference... last season we desperately lacked a player who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and dominate.

 

[RoughandLove]

What’s the state of our list currently? How many spots do we have vacant?

Thanks in advance.


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[MrPremiership]

What’s the state of our list currently? How many spots do we have vacant?

Thanks in advance.


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Pending delistings, we have 2 spots up for grabs, considering we will upgrade Glass to senior list.

Hence AFL.com suggesting our draft picks are 53 and 90

 

[HODGEYROAD]

With a far tougher draw next year (which is a given) or a couple of injuries we could easily miss the finals.

We have a group of top end talent but really weak bottom 6 and limited talent coming through - the pressure of finals showed the difference in talent. With essentially a full list Duryea was still in our best 22 for finals. Our kpp stocks are also pretty diabolical. Let’s hope for a good injury run again as not much depth.

We were ultimately a fair way off the pace this year. Not convinced the additions (eg wingard) and any natural improvements, offset by the declines of senior players will be enough to push us into contention. But side is potentially worse in 2020 (with retirements etc) so need a big 2019.

A lot is riding on Lewis / Nash / glass / worpel / Moore / Morrison etc making it - all are late picks and odds against it + Scully and scrimshaw coming good.

Do we stack up better than WCE / pies / tigers - IMO we’re a level below.

Yeah nah Duryea was best 22 because we had Stratton and Birchall out, if either are fit no way does Doc play a final.

 

[Gralin]

Hawthorn Listed Senior Players still on the list after trade period - 32
Senior Players traded in - 3
Senior List stands at - 35

Rookies - 7

Total list size currently 42

This includes a bunch of out of contract players.

Minimum senior list size is 38 and you need to use minimum 3 draft picks including Rookie upgrades

Conor Glass was promised an upgrade this year when he signed his last extension. That takes the senior list to 37 and means we need to use two live picks.

Assuming we don't upgrade anyone else then that means 53 and 90 are our picks currently, before any moves are made via trades, academy and f/s bidding and teams passing on using later picks

First list lodgment is due 31st of October and is the start of the first DFA period. We may see some more players cut and some DFA picked up before the drafts.

Drafts start on 16th of November and run for 2 days

If we stay with 38 on the Primary list we can have up to 6 Category A Rookies, if we go with 40 on the primary list that drops to 4

We can have up to 3 Cat B rookies, I believe this year we had two in CJ and Nash

 

[Spursfan]

You don't think that Wingard is what we need?? at both our finals this year it was clear how badly we missed Rioli, had we had him in that game against Melbourne, he could have made the difference... last season we desperately lacked a player who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and dominate.

Agreed. Martin and D Rioli slotting magic goals in the first final , like Cyril used to, meanwhile we can't kick one from the top of the square... Couldn't break the game open against the Dees despite controlling large portions of it. I'm rapt with Wingard would prefer him to anyone available in the trade period except maybe Lynch. Wingard/Breust/Gunston/Poppy working in the front half will be sensational.

 

[Billyc]

I’m pretty sure neither Hawthorn, Port Adelaide or even Burton’s manager believe he is a star. Fans and media do. He’s not a swingman. He’s a nice user of the footy and he wins uncontested footy.

Yep. I am confident Burton will play 200 games and be a very good half back flanker who uses the ball well coming out of defence. But I have seen nothing to support the fan theories that he will be a midfielder. I have heard some people compare him to Yeo. That comparison strikes me as nonsense. Yeo is a contested beast. Burton is an uncontested player. Could Burton play forward effectively? Maybe, but again we have not seen that. He's not a swingman. He's a half back flanker.

The likelihood of him every being better than Wingard is so remote I really cannot understand the heartache. People get too attached to draftees.

 

[HawthornHawk]

Yep. I am confident Burton will play 200 games and be a very good half back flanker who uses the ball well coming out of defence. But I have seen nothing to support the fan theories that he will be a midfielder. I have heard some people compare him to Yeo. That comparison strikes me as nonsense. Yeo is a contested beast. Burton is an uncontested player. Could Burton play forward effectively? Maybe, but again we have not seen that. He's not a swingman. He's a half back flanker.

The likelihood of him every being better than Wingard is so remote I really cannot understand the heartache. People get too attached to draftees.

Anytime he's played forward he's looked completely lost

That's not to say he won't improve in that area, but i'm inclined to trust the club on this one

 

[Spursfan]

Yep. I am confident Burton will play 200 games and be a very good half back flanker who uses the ball well coming out of defence. But I have seen nothing to support the fan theories that he will be a midfielder. I have heard some people compare him to Yeo. That comparison strikes me as nonsense. Yeo is a contested beast. Burton is an uncontested player. Could Burton play forward effectively? Maybe, but again we have not seen that. He's not a swingman. He's a half back flanker.

The likelihood of him every being better than Wingard is so remote I really cannot understand the heartache. People get too attached to draftees.

Great take. Aslo I don't think he's a great overhead mark for his size, a number of times late in the season he could've intercept marked but went the double fist.

 

[PhatHQ]

So now that Burton is gone he is a Suckling comparison.

Each to their own I guess

 

[streetspirit]

Wrighty says on the latest hawks tv video that we're a chance to only take two picks in the draft (with Glass' elevation making up the minimun three picks). Perhaps no more list movement then?

Edit: unless there is a DFA we want to take in the meantime

 

[dermott]

Wrighty says on the latest hawks tv video that we're a chance to only take two picks in the draft (with Glass' elevation making up the minimun three picks). Perhaps no more list movement then?

Unless we look at DFAs.