NRL NRL 2023 - Grand Final Penrith vs Brisbane

[PhatBoy]

Shouldn’t have. One to it if they weren’t so dumb at 24-8 in that set. Said it to my dad at the time that was an arrogant set and it cost them

Of course there were bad decisions, no team ever loses from 24-8 up without making them, same as no team ever goes down 24-8 without making them. Trying to take Ezra Mam ball and all when he steps off his left is a bad decision when you should be targeting his waist but it happens because players start to feel the pinch and drift from what they do when theyr at full capacity. Realistically though Penrith had more in reserve as they spent more time in the game dictating it’s speed and while you can look at some of the silly passes and poor handling as a reason - and it was - you can just as easily look at the players falling off Cleary (both his try for leota and his solo try) and Crichton and understand that Brisbane were low on fuel

 

[PhatBoy]

Which would be the same outcome as a regular drop out.

What he attempted to do is a 100-1 outcome and what happened with one was what you described and the other went OOF.

It wasnt a smart decision and it wasnt good execution.

His first short drop out he did perfectly and Herbie and co ****ed it up.

With a lead you dont need to be doing 100-1 s**t, you need to be executing fundamentals, we didnt, we lost.

I’m not saying it was a good decision, I’m saying I just don’t think it was a fait accompli that even trying it was that fraught with danger. Even Reynolds himself would have been staggered at how well he actually struck them given what he was trying to do

 

[phantom13]

Just wonder whether that tackle in the first half might have had a groin injury wouldn’t be shocked if he took an injection at HT.

Thats fair but he still made poor choices and showed poor leadership.

We needed 2-3 completed sets, with 5 tackles, some yardage and a kick and chase in the last 20 and we couldnt get that, hes not responsible for every bad set and every poor decision but he had a few.

 

[phantom13]

I’m not saying it was a good decision, I’m saying I just don’t think it was a fait accompli that even trying it was that fraught with danger. Even Reynolds himself would have been staggered at how well he actually struck them given what he was trying to do

Yeh, so it was a poor choice and he made it twice. The second didnt go badly but it still didnt benefit us at all so what was the point.

Risk management when you have a lead, there was no risk management in doing it.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Thats fair but he still made poor choices and showed poor leadership.

We needed 2-3 completed sets, with 5 tackles, some yardage and a kick and chase in the last 20 and we couldnt get that, hes not responsible for every bad set and every poor decision but he had a few.

The error on the set at 24-8 was crucial. What was wrong with holding the ball for 6 tackles and at worst getting tackled in a corner? That’s where the game was lost

 

[PhatBoy]

The error on the set at 24-8 was crucial. What was wrong with holding the ball for 6 tackles and at worst getting tackled in a corner? That’s where the game was lost

It’s harsh pinning all of that on Reynolds - there were a few occasions when they got tackled on the last as well having decided not to go to him.
Reynolds is generally a fantastic game manager but it’s worth remembering that without him they don’t really have anyone else who can naturally bring calm to a situation. Billy Walters is a kid, Mam is flashy but not a game manager, Walsh is a kid, Carrigan as good as he is, is still a kid and playing his first grand final as well. Haas is the next steadiest player they have and he’s a prop, he can carry them on his back all he wants but his influence on the approach of his team is limited.

Panthers in addition to having most of their play in grand finals previously, have a rock solid fullback who isn’t dissimilar to Tedesco in his management and direction from the back, Yeo who is as calm as it gets and always has his hands on the ball and can help Cleary steer the team, and Mitch Kenny at hooker has nearly 100 games under his belt, and served as an understudy for a fantastic hooker in Koroisau.

I don’t quite buy into the hyperbole on social media of ‘this proves how s**t Luai is’ but there’s absolutely no doubt that the one key player Penrith could most afford to lose in a scenario where they had to stay calm, was him. He’s a fantastic player with his footwork and ball running when they’re on top but he was never ever going to turn the tide last night

 

[phantom13]

It’s harsh pinning all of that on Reynolds - there were a few occasions when they got tackled on the last as well having decided not to go to him.
Reynolds is generally a fantastic game manager but it’s worth remembering that without him they don’t really have anyone else who can naturally bring calm to a situation. Billy Walters is a kid, Mam is flashy but not a game manager, Walsh is a kid, Carrigan as good as he is, is still a kid and playing his first grand final as well. Haas is the next steadiest player they have and he’s a prop, he can carry them on his back all he wants but his influence on the approach of his team is limited.

Panthers in addition to having most of their play in grand finals previously, have a rock solid fullback who isn’t dissimilar to Tedesco in his management and direction from the back, Yeo who is as calm as it gets and always has his hands on the ball and can help Cleary steer the team, and Mitch Kenny at hooker has nearly 100 games under his belt, and served as an understudy for a fantastic hooker in Koroisau.

I don’t quite buy into the hyperbole on social media of ‘this proves how s**t Luai is’ but there’s absolutely no doubt that the one key player Penrith could most afford to lose in a scenario where they had to stay calm, was him. He’s a fantastic player with his footwork and ball running when they’re on top but he was never ever going to turn the tide last night

I don’t put it all on Reynolds. Carrigan had a loose carry after Haas got us out of danger. Walsh was out of position pretty badly 2 or 3 times.

To your point though, Reynolds is the leader, he is the old head with the experience and he capitulated last night in that role.

 

[PhatBoy]

I don’t put it all on Reynolds. Carrigan had a loose carry after Haas got us out of danger. Walsh was out of position pretty badly 2 or 3 times.

To your point though, Reynolds is the leader, he is the old head with the experience and he capitulated last night in that role.

To a degree. He also stayed on the field with his side trailing 8-0 and with nothing going for them in a situation in which he had no right to still be out there. It’s six of one half a dozen of the other

 

[phantom13]

To a degree. He also stayed on the field with his side trailing 8-0 and with nothing going for them in a situation in which he had no right to still be out there. It’s six of one half a dozen of the other

Don’t agree at all. Cooper Cronk stayed on the field through injury and steered his side. Reynolds stays out he’s fit enough to play.

 

[Aucklander]

NRL GRAND FINAL DAY -MATCH

Nine Network

2,045,000

854,000

349,000

623,000

88,000

132,000

 

[PhatBoy]

Don’t agree at all. Cooper Cronk stayed on the field through injury and steered his side. Reynolds stays out he’s fit enough to play.

Cronk could do this because he could run. He could be absolutely anywhere he needed to be to bark orders, and he had a side stacked with players who had been in and around finals for years.

Oh, and he’s a miles better player than Reynolds, with due respect, has ever been.

 

[phantom13]

Cronk could do this because he could run. He could be absolutely anywhere he needed to be to bark orders, and he had a side stacked with players who had been in and around finals for years.

Oh, and he’s a miles better player than Reynolds, with due respect, has ever been.

Not really relevant to the point being made but sure.

 

[Exe Gesis]

A whole group of people are to blame for the loss. It was a collective effort. From the coach, to the onfield general, to the individual players

Thing is...Broncos played super aggressive to go toe to toe with a giant....they had to if they wanted to beat them....so credit to them for being nuts out there in the opening 60 minutes, so many mistakes during that 60 minute period part of the pill you swallow if you play so aggressively.

Kudos for all that. But once you go up 24-8 with 20 minutes left in a Grand Final, it's time to play it smart. Walters at fault for encouraging to keep playing the same, finish them off. It's what they usually do, but this is Penrith in a Grand Final.

The errors made in the last 20 a result of that tactical flaw, f you keep playing aggressively you're just inviting more errors etc. When you're behind, ok. When you're ahead, a different approach is required. You can still be aggressive in a tactical/defensive way --- kicks and chases into the corners, repeat sets from grubbers.

 

[PhatBoy]

Not really relevant to the point being made but sure.

The criticism being levelled at Reynolds is that he should have been better at managing Brisbane over the line. Ok, reasonable.

Equally, he shouldn’t have been on the field. It was a miracle that he was, and if a scenario like Cronk’s is worthy of praise for merely being an onfield director, then so too is Reynolds for his management up until things went pear shaped.

Also, if you’re going to compare those two scenarios - aside from needing to allow for the fact that one player was a rung or two below Thurston and Smith as the best player of his generation - remember that the Roosters that year spent a week training for the exact scenario you’re describing.
The Broncos had about 30 seconds while Reynolds stretched, to work out how they could adjust to him not being at full capacity.

 

[phantom13]

The difference is that I’m saying Reynolds has some blame, you’re trying to say he doesn’t, or that it’s offset.

You’re welcome to your opinion, I think it’s wrong.

 

[PhatBoy]

The difference is that I’m saying Reynolds has some blame, you’re trying to say he doesn’t, or that it’s offset.

You’re welcome to your opinion, I think it’s wrong.

Where have I said that?
I’ve said that he is partly to blame but that there’s also a realistic chance that he shouldn’t have been on the field and the game may have been over by half time if he wasn’t

 

[Slysh]

Moses Leota hopefully going to start getting some real recognition for just how special of a player he is, back to back grand finals where he has just been completely physically dominant. I think i rate him slightly higher than JFH to be honest.

Growing up was Tony Puletua and Joe Galuvao but this duo is just on another level.

Critta is going to be missed big time, i hope he kills it at the Dogs and can turn them around. He is a very special player, best centre in the game and only goes up a level in big games!

 

[phantom13]

Reynolds is a smart enough footballer to know that if you keep inviting a team as good as Penrith to start sets 20-30m out from your line it’s almost inevitable, especially in the back end of a game unlike the first 20 when Broncos were still defending with energy, that they will score or at worst earn another drop out and ramp that pressure up. He’s attempted two short ones already and one failed miserably and one led to a Penrith try.

His other options are stab for the sideline or pump it long and meet them around the 30 and invite that pressure.

Maybe he was looking too hard for the miracle play but I don’t think there was a heap wrong with it

It’s not 1 in 100 though.

It’s actually very very very small odds that he actually strikes an attempted stab drop-kick well enough to pump it flat that far without touching the ground. The most likely outcome generally is that it will scrub along the ground and just end up with a player being tackled in a fairly normal part of the field

It’s harsh pinning all of that on Reynolds - there were a few occasions when they got tackled on the last as well having decided not to go to him.
Reynolds is generally a fantastic game manager but it’s worth remembering that without him they don’t really have anyone else who can naturally bring calm to a situation. Billy Walters is a kid, Mam is flashy but not a game manager, Walsh is a kid, Carrigan as good as he is, is still a kid and playing his first grand final as well. Haas is the next steadiest player they have and he’s a prop, he can carry them on his back all he wants but his influence on the approach of his team is limited.

Panthers in addition to having most of their play in grand finals previously, have a rock solid fullback who isn’t dissimilar to Tedesco in his management and direction from the back, Yeo who is as calm as it gets and always has his hands on the ball and can help Cleary steer the team, and Mitch Kenny at hooker has nearly 100 games under his belt, and served as an understudy for a fantastic hooker in Koroisau.

I don’t quite buy into the hyperbole on social media of ‘this proves how s**t Luai is’ but there’s absolutely no doubt that the one key player Penrith could most afford to lose in a scenario where they had to stay calm, was him. He’s a fantastic player with his footwork and ball running when they’re on top but he was never ever going to turn the tide last night

To a degree. He also stayed on the field with his side trailing 8-0 and with nothing going for them in a situation in which he had no right to still be out there. It’s six of one half a dozen of the other

The criticism being levelled at Reynolds is that he should have been better at managing Brisbane over the line. Ok, reasonable.

Equally, he shouldn’t have been on the field. It was a miracle that he was, and if a scenario like Cronk’s is worthy of praise for merely being an onfield director, then so too is Reynolds for his management up until things went pear shaped.

Also, if you’re going to compare those two scenarios - aside from needing to allow for the fact that one player was a rung or two below Thurston and Smith as the best player of his generation - remember that the Roosters that year spent a week training for the exact scenario you’re describing.
The Broncos had about 30 seconds while Reynolds stretched, to work out how they could adjust to him not being at full capacity.

Where have I said that?
I’ve said that he is partly to blame but that there’s also a realistic chance that he shouldn’t have been on the field and the game may have been over by half time if he wasn’t

Hes on the field hes fit to play (and we actually still dont know the extent of the injury) so all the "he stayed out there when he shouldnt have" doesnt wash with me.

Youve said the restarts werent a mistake, youve said him being injured offsets his mistakes, the six of one half a dozen of the other in particular.

He ****ed up a few things in the last 20 which is where he should have earned his considerable paycheck.

 

[PhatBoy]

Hes on the field hes fit to play (and we actually still dont know the extent of the injury) so all the "he stayed out there when he shouldnt have" doesnt wash with me.

Youve said the restarts werent a mistake, youve said him being injured offsets his mistakes, the six of one half a dozen of the other in particular.

He ****ed up a few things in the last 20 which is where he should have earned his considerable paycheck.

I didn’t say the restarts weren’t a mistake. Giving an explanation as to why he made that decision isn’t saying they weren’t a mistake.

Mate, when people try and understand why someone takes the actions they take, it isn’t exonerating them. It’s simply pointing out that there is more than likely some level of thought that went into that action beyond simply ‘he f***ed up.’

It seemed to me from some of the posts that one player is copping all the blame for the result because he just made a sequence of dumb calls.

Pointing out other facts that mean the outcome relied on far more than just ‘he did something stupid’ doesn’t exonerate them or assuage their input.

 

[phantom13]

I didn’t say the restarts weren’t a mistake. Giving an explanation as to why he made that decision isn’t saying they weren’t a mistake.

Mate, when people try and understand why someone takes the actions they take, it isn’t exonerating them. It’s simply pointing out that there is more than likely some level of thought that went into that action beyond simply ‘he f***ed up.’

It seemed to me from some of the posts that one player is copping all the blame for the result because he just made a sequence of dumb calls.

Pointing out other facts that mean the outcome relied on far more than just ‘he did something stupid’ doesn’t exonerate them or assuage their input.

You very clearly made the comparison between him staying on the field and that off setting the errors. You also clearly stated how the errors werent really errors and they didnt impact.

If there is an issue here its the way youre presenting your case, not my understanding of it, so feel free to clarify.

Reynolds doesnt hold all the blame (i pointed out the Carrigans carry, Walshes positioning, Arthars and Cobbos errors) but for me, as the senior leader and likely highest paid player he shoulders the majority of it. You can agree with that or you can not, currently it looks alot like your making excuses for his mistakes or implying that cause he was injured they dont matter.

Feel free to clarify if you like, i dont need to re read anything, i went back and quoted and highlighted your comments noting what youve said.

 

[PhatBoy]

You very clearly made the comparison between him staying on the field and that off setting the errors. You also clearly stated how the errors werent really errors and they didnt impact.

If there is an issue here its the way youre presenting your case, not my understanding of it, so feel free to clarify.

Reynolds doesnt hold all the blame (i pointed out the Carrigans carry, Walshes positioning, Arthars and Cobbos errors) but for me, as the senior leader and likely highest paid player he shoulders the majority of it. You can agree with that or you can not, currently it looks alot like your making excuses for his mistakes or implying that cause he was injured they dont matter.

Feel free to clarify if you like, i dont need to re read anything, i went back and quoted and highlighted your comments noting what youve said.

You claimed he was trying to execute a one in a million play and that it was low percentage.
I explained that more likely is the idea that he was HOPING for a one in a million play but was actually doing something pretty unlikely to end the way it did. IE. a stab kick for the sideline is usually quite safe as they rarely get off the ground. It’s just that they even more rarely actually find the sideline and give you the ball back.
He had a safer option, 100 per cent. But also this wasn’t someone trying to take a game winning shot from their own key when the alternative is a free-throw at the other end.

I’ve said he was clearly hampered in being able to run so he’s not going to be able to go everywhere he’s required as a director of traffic like he normally would, and that he’s not as good a player as the last person to effectively act as an onfield coach in a grand final so expecting him to be as good in that role as the other person, is asking a lot.

I’ve said that he did not have the players around him to make up any shortfall in his own output or bring calm to the team.

So when Reynolds makes a poor decision, or at least, doesn’t choose the right one, there wasn’t someone else there to cover it.


So it isn’t a question of trying to ‘excuse’ him from responsibility or something, it’s simply giving context to what ultimately happened and highlighting that it wasn’t Justin Hodges-on-debut-in-Origin disastrous

 

[Around the Wicket]

That set at 24-8 when Broncos had another attacking set 10 out was a shocker, that turnover was the momentum swing.

 

[Jatz]

Well, what a grand final that was.

This Penrith system is insane. How many players have they lost over the years and they still churn out premierships.

Cleary's final 20 mins absolutely puts him in the conversation of Johns/Smith/Thurston etc as all time great players. Not bad company for a 25 year old.

 

[PhatBoy]

Well, what a grand final that was.

This Penrith system is insane. How many players have they lost over the years and they still churn out premierships.

Cleary's final 20 mins absolutely puts him in the conversation of Johns/Smith/Thurston etc as all time great players. Not bad company for a 25 year old.

He does still need to get that SOO monkey off his back but I think his simple overall dominance of week to week footy, now with not one but two game defining performances in grand finals and one burst which rivals any 20 minutes of rugby league ever seen for sheer brilliance and circumstance, it sets him up for a great shot at it.

In my lifetime as a footy fan, in no particular order I have the ‘level above’ group as Smith, Johns, Fittler, Thurston, Slater, Inglis and Lockyer.

Inglis is probably the odd one out in some ways but he was the most gifted of the lot and did it in two - occasionally three (five-eighth) positions and with and without the stars around him so I have him in there.

Cleary sits comfortably in there for me for the moment, the one difference is that all 7 of those guys were the best in their role for 12-15 years.

It would take a very brave man to back against him doing it

 

[Jatz]

He does still need to get that SOO monkey off his back but I think his simple overall dominance of week to week footy, now with not one but two game defining performances in grand finals and one burst which rivals any 20 minutes of rugby league ever seen for sheer brilliance and circumstance, it sets him up for a great shot at it.

In my lifetime as a footy fan, in no particular order I have the ‘level above’ group as Smith, Johns, Fittler, Thurston, Slater, Inglis and Lockyer.

Inglis is probably the odd one out in some ways but he was the most gifted of the lot and did it in two - occasionally three (five-eighth) positions and with and without the stars around him so I have him in there.

Cleary sits comfortably in there for me for the moment, the one difference is that all 7 of those guys were the best in their role for 12-15 years.

It would take a very brave man to back against him doing it

He has won at Origin level before (2018, 2019, 2021). Although in 2019 he played 2 games which resulted in a win and loss before NSW won the decider without him.

His record should be better but I'm happy to equally put that on Fittler - next year will be interesting with a new coach at that level.