Autopsy Rd 14 Loss: Here comes another one, just like the other one

[Gethelred]

They played reasonably well, but it felt they were just going through the motions at times.

There was a clear intent to tackle, but that just seemed like a general design for the game. Teams go after Cripps and Walsh, and they largely kept 3 or 4 same mids at the stoppages.

Otherwise they were happy to dictate field position and play tempo footy without a heap of urgency in their movement. Gaps naturally opened up in our defence, as they do each week, and they picked out players pretty comfortably.

A better team would have smacked us on that effort.

GWS are like that. When they're cruising, it looks effortless. GWS are a team you judge on their effort rather than their dominance, because the level of talent you have in that team ensures that when the effort is there they're just going to be unstoppable.

But - and I'm still really rather pissed off - I don't really give a * how they were. What was our excuse for not being ready to prove a point?

Thoughtful and articulate Geth. Kudos. You have a much better understanding of what our various gameplans are and how they are being executed than I, but I ask this.

Can any game plan, from the Red Fox, to Barrass, to Yabby, to Lethal, to Dimma be executed if the players just do not try?

What I saw in the last two games were a team who were not 'collectively' trying.

I cannot decide if I just wholly full on agree, or if I agree in part.

You don't suddenly expect a team to just up and play a different way, unless the plan to do so is simply 'take first option', 'play on instinct', 'play on always'; the simpler it is, the easier it is to transition to it. What we were trying was an incorporation of a Bolton-esque deep press into a Teague gameplan (think, his press in 2017 that held its position deeper rather than what he was doing in 2018-19 which had a close press at the ball carrier to shut down short options and drive them wide) but the players that weren't there for Bolton - who have no way of learning or knowing how to play that press - kept ******* it up.

See, I don't like the notion that players don't try. It doesn't make sense to me. Why would you actively walk out there, you're getting paid and not a small amount, and not do what you're told to do? Even if you don't do what your coach says, why wouldn't you just play the game your way and have a bit of fun?

Going out there and not giving it their all isn't something that happens all that often at AFL level. You're going to see it maybe once every 5 seasons. You're going to see players ignoring or forgetting coaching instructions far more often, and that's why it's a bit of a struggle as to whether I agree in part or in whole.

Because today, I saw players who weren't trying, and who were struggling to adapt to something they didn't agree with.

 

[pgm87]

I feel for ya. I'm pretty much the same.

There are some fundamentals in football. Irrevocable facts. 'You don't need to be the best player to be able to tackle, you need will' is one of them.

We have no will.

Jsos tried to rally the troops at times, but had another one of those 'almost' games. No one else seems capable of leading. I say that as a 100% proponent of giving Cripps the Captaincy. (not so sure about Doc, and not at all a fan of co-captaincy, it reeks of indecision.)

I'm not a fan of co-captains. It's weak in my opinion. To me co-captains in a way symbolises why after all these years we're in the position we find ourselves in. Did the administration honestly believe that co-captains was the strongest/best decision moving forward? Or did the administration not have the balls to make the hard call? I don't know. Maybe in their heart of hearts they did think it was best, to me it screams of an administration who didn't have the balls to sit one of their own players down to tell them the bad news and hurt their feelings. Essentially, they chose the soft option. It was made out of fear that the one who missed out would leave. If a player is going to leave because of missing out on being captain do you really want them at the club anyway?

That aside, tonight was s**t. Thought there would be a big focus on defensive pressure/structure/tackling but it was just the same old rubbish, worse than (the low standard we now deem as) normal if anything.

We lack standards/non negotiables. One thing that annoys me, and I don't want to see any infighting on the field, is that they're all too damn nice to each other! I have not once seen an i50 go to H's disadvantage where he's looked up at the player delivering the ball and called them out - "OI dickhead! How about you kick it to where I'm pointing/leading/to my advantage!" If H isn't going to demand that the ball be passed to him in a certain way/direction/position then we're probably going to end up with mids bombing the ball i50 and hoping for the best. Yeh, it's a poor game plan but H can influence it.

I don't see defenders demanding the mids to get back and help out and to then assist in positioning them. I don't see players call in teammates up the field if their direct opponent has them beat and a teammate is in a position to cover. There's general play as well. 2 examples from tonight, Pitt's handpass to Walsh from a free kick in the centre when Walsh got tackled straight away. Walsh gets up and moves on without a word. A little 'WTF?' wouldn't go astray. Just coz Walsh is presenting doesn't mean the ball has to be given to him. The other was Dochs pass to JSos on the wing which missed the target and went out of bounds. Jack with his back to Doch was pissed off, shakes his head and moves back to his position without even a look back at Doch. I don't care if its the captain or not, you've gotta hold them to account. Yeh, they'd both be aware its not good enough but the players on the field have to start setting standards. If the players on the receiving end keep accepting sub par decision making/skill execution it'll continue to happen and it's not up to scratch. If they accept it, they'll also partake in it. I'm not asking them to irrationally tear shreds off each other, they just need to be held to account or else the on field standards are never going to change.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

He had a close relationship with his leadership group, and had an open door policy at both clubs.
He had players at the saints like robert eddie, mcgualter, gwilt, dawson, I could go on, he got them to play out of their skin
we have talent, its undisciplined, its rotting away, its been like this for too long

we have enough talent there, it needs work though

how many top 10 draft pics
how many players drafted from GWS (15)
we cant even get a finals gig

something is seriously wrong , and it permeates everywhere

It means b****r all if you don't select the right players or the right mix of players at the right time. We have also traded out oodles of second-round picks and a first-round pick last year. Also, if players have become 'spoiled', no amount of quality coaching may be enough to bring them out of their malaise. I seriously think we need a mini rebuild for the next two years of just getting the best dozen or so players to the club who are under roughly 24, regardless of where they play, and reassess from there. If we have a serious up-spike next year then, of course, things can change. Something is seriously wrong, all right, but it has also badly impacted our playing stocks.

 

[Davey33]

Who did Weitering play on?

 

[Blueballs38]

Switched off at half time .... never in my 50 years been so insulted as a supporter. Seen us at our best, seen premierships, seen the perfect season (1995), saw David Reece Jones win the norm smith.

Today saw the death of all that this club used to stand for.

We are an utter joke.

Heart broken.

 

[Wickzki]

Posted similar on Reddit to someone asking the question Teague or Bolton...

David Teague did a fantastic job getting immediate buy-in from the players by putting them into their best positions, made football fun again, got the best out of them... Then he got the position permanently.

Teague's coaching has been a literal 180-degree turn since that point on.

He had early success in 2020 then we hit the wall when we left the QLD hub and went to WA.

The club has not recovered.

Teague has persisted with his rotten game-plan, has persisted with playing players out of position, has shown no willingness to adapt when it is abundantly clear that it is absolutely necessary.

I still believe that we made the right call at the right time in regards to Bolton. The Essendon game in 2019 was one of our most shameful moments in the club's history. When not even Paddy Cripps, who had one of his best years, could motivate himself to play the type of game he himself had taken for granted it was time.

Unfortunately, that was also the moment in time where the Sayers review should have begun. The club should have ended the 2019 season with review in hand, a thorough search for the new head coach initiated and completed, and even if that meant that we landed on Teague then it would have been with a lot more solidity than what he acquired the job.

Mark LoGuidice failed the club at that precise time. We needed a good football department move by the president. Instead, he did nothing. Don't get me wrong. He has been a fantastic president from a financial perspective. The club is at its strongest point financially that it's arguably ever been. Certainly, at least, in the time since the failed Legends Stand. Unfortuantely, from a football club department perspective he has exacerbated many of the problems that he walked in on when he assumed the presidency.

Instead, the club's approach was to enable Teague to attempt the surface level issues, and aided by the renewed motivation of a playing list tired of the green shoots approach, it affectively put bandaids over paper cuts and hid the short-term pain while the long-term pain was able to fester. It's this long-term pain that kills everything positive that is happening at the club.

What would I have done differently?

First, obviously the football department review.

Secondly, in regards to list management, I believe we should have been doing what Melbourne and Brisbane did so successfully. That's bringing in not only players from premiership teams but leaders of those teams. The Jordan Lewis's, Luke Hodge's, etc. These are the players who actually understand what the minimum requirements and standards are not only for themselves but for the entirety of the player group. Further, they know how to get buy-in to those standards. As a player you need two levels of buy-in. You need to buy-in to what the coaching staff is selling you but further you need to buy-in to the team environment - the 21 players you share the field with and the 30-or-so players who you train with throughout the week.

There's no buy-in to what either the coaches are selling and even more frustratingly there is limited buy-in into the team culture. For example, how many times are we going to see players get smashed to their asses and have few players remonstrate or even help their teammate up. It might seem like little things but they all add up.

I love Kade Simpson. I loved Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs, etc. at their absolute peak too. Most of them were good clubmen. However, none of them knew anything about the standards required to play winning football. We had a generation of footballers who only got as far as what Chris Judd was able to carry them. That may sound unfair but it's true. Love them as individual players but none of them knew how to win. They all got to the club or grew into their roles in the club when the club was at rock bottom. Not only was the club smashed by the salary cap scandal but it occurred when we had a mass exodus (retirement) of club champions and we lacked the list to drag us back out.

Insofar as head coaching is concerned, we need a motivator who is adaptable. The club desperately needs a coach who is able to recognize when a game plan isn't working and who will do more than move magnets. It's the unwillingness or the flat-out inability to adapt within quarters that hurts us most. Opposition teams work us out and smash us with red-time goals. It happens every week and in sadly most quarters. It's true that coaches coach their teams to stick with the Blues for the first 15+ minutes of a quarter because as soon as red-time comes they're able to make the change or two to bang on a few goals and go on these huge runs. Teague will then make minor adjustments at the end of each quarter/half and the situation repeats itself. We are undeniably the worst in-game coached club in football.

The club does not need another messiah. Neither Clarkson or Lyon are the answer if the other things don't change. Personally, I'd be more than happy for the club to hire someone like Michael Voss. A coach who has failed before, who has done the hard yards at another club, who is willing to put the learned lessons of the past to good use, and who will fight to try again.

Standards need to be established across the board - from the coaching group to the playing group and obvious in between. It's not something that will fix itself overnight but it needs to happen - gradual, continuous improvement, procedure. Sadly, I argue that we've been too unsuccessful for too long for it to come from within the club itself. It needs to come from the outside. We need to be fearless and make the changes necessary. Some of the names that may become available may be names that we turn our noses up at but if they've had success, understand the right standards then they must be considered.

If it doesn't happen in the next 6-18 months then it will be too late. Our 2015 draft class have already been in the system for 6 seasons. If a good career is 12 seasons then they're at the halfway mark and not once have they been coached or led by good football culture.

The time is now if the Blues have the guts to make it happen.

 

[Juddrockz]

Did Teague do the press conference after tonights loss? Havent seen it up anywhere?

 

[Wickzki]

Did Teague do the press conference after tonights loss? Havent seen it up anywhere?

AFL R14 | Teague post-match

David Teague spoke to the media following the Round 14 clash against GWS.

www.carltonfc.com.au

 

[Juddrockz]

AFL R14 | Teague post-match

David Teague spoke to the media following the Round 14 clash against GWS.

www.carltonfc.com.au

Thank you.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

We can cry all we like fact is any side who has mcgovern Saad wiilliam Martin in there top 6 paid players is really going to struggle . With our list demographic these guys are our oldest players and leaders in two years - get ready for more pain

 

[majesticseacapt]

All the MC had proven over recent weeks that no matter who they bring in, the gameplan is flawed.

Week after week we're getting the same result and i doubt that playing certain players in their best positions (SPS, stocker, Setterfield etc) will improve this result much.

The game had gone past this gameplan - whatever it is - and were just running the confidence of our players.

 

[bigm386]

On the evidence I've seen so far TDK is not ready to play 1st ruck. We desperately need something different though. The young big guy from the Giants played well tonight. Someone like him would be ideal. Huge, Hulking, Powerful, good hands. I wonder if he is available. He would make a formidalbe ruck duo with TDK in the next few years.

On another thought, did't we just recruit someone really tall?

Yep and he hurt his knee in the first quarter of the VFL game

 

[tarczonandjane]

Posted similar on Reddit to someone asking the question Teague or Bolton...

David Teague did a fantastic job getting immediate buy-in from the players by putting them into their best positions, made football fun again, got the best out of them... Then he got the position permanently....

The only reason I’ve cut your post is for brevity in my quoting. But throughout the whole thing, you hit the nail on the head every single time. Particularly the bit around guys who are good club men but have absolutely no idea how to win.

Your post should be made a sticky. And you should send it off to Sayers and tell him here is your external review.

 

[athensblue]

Martin, Williams, Saad and Gov

What coll did in the trade season could be nothing if these 4 don't pull their fingers out and start making a big difference

Someone obviously thought getting these 4 to the blues would bring home 17

Right now no bacon, just porky

 

[BigBreakfast]

Players have clearly checked out....

Did they ever check in?

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

The season has been done for weeks. The club seemed to be indicating we “are still a chance of finals”. Well we are not and have been. Let’s get something out of the final rounds. Play some kids we haven’t seen, try some new things we haven’t seen. Give us something to enjoy rather than just rolling over. In a season where we have 4 wins after 13 matches we have seen * all of the youngsters. From memory Parks is the only one. Give us something as this year up to now has been nothing short of a cluster *.

 

[Wickzki]

From memory Parks is the only one. Give us something as this year up to now has been nothing short of a cluster fu**.

Of players 22 and younger who haven't been guaranteed best 22 players before this season:

* Williamson (3 games)
* Fogarty (12 games)
* De Koning (4 games)
* O'Brien (1 game)
* Dow (7 games)
* Stocker (8 games)
* Cottrell (10 games)
* Parks (6 games)

Those who haven't been seen (for various reasons)

* Ramsay
* Kemp
* Philp
* Honey
* Durdin
* Carroll

 

[haveago]

I NEVER write negative posts but last night was just too bad to forgive.........

Another heart breaking loss/ season.

We have all had a GUTFULL of this insipidness and there needs to be big calls made.

Jack Martin for a start has to be in 2s next week . Has been pathetic. Williams not much better!!!!

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Slept on it, and still feel completely gutted.. We are simply not any good, clearly a bottom 4 side in the comp and I would have zero confidence that we can beat any other side in the comp, even North worry me, because they play with a system and heart both things we severely lack.

only positives were Kennedy, played out of his skin and let’s see if he can back it up and Dow looks to be coming good, both may have just saved there careers.

Apart from that it was simply embarrassing,I see Levi was BOG in the 2s, what position did he play? Hopefully he comes in for Pittonet and we never see Pitt and TDK in the same side again.

 

[Broadside]

Because today, I saw players who weren't trying, and who were struggling to adapt to something they didn't agree with.

If correct an absolute indictment on the playing list and our leaders. The new Saint Kilda who stop playing for coaches they don’t like. Did the same to Bolton. Wanted Teague and hijacked the process. Now they want a new toy they can throw away in a year or two.

They need a coach who won’t accept half arsed effort. Sure we have had injuries. Doesn’t excuse the 22 we put out there being lazy and insipid.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

Slept on it, and still feel completely gutted.. We are simply not any good, clearly a bottom 4 side in the comp and I would have zero confidence that we can beat any other side in the comp, even North worry me, because they play with a system and heart both things we severely lack.

only positives were Kennedy, played out of his skin and let’s see if he can back it up and Dow looks to be coming good, both may have just saved there careers.

Apart from that it was simply embarrassing,I see Levi was BOG in the 2s, what position did he play? Hopefully he comes in for Pittonet and we never see Pitt and TDK in the same side again.

Cas was clunking marks which was good to see , he hasn't done that all year also moved really well.
If the whispers are true and Darcy wants to leave Freo and come home, we need a ruckman desperately, Darcy needs to be our target.

 

[myblueroan]

Woeful tap ruckman, 1st quarter the ball clearly favoured him, took the centre tap uncontested and instead of tapping to us, thumped it to the back of the stoppage down hoppers throat...

As I wrote in match thread
It's like having Djokovitch in our team. Seriously unlikeable and annoying with no idea how to play AFL.

 

[macky99]

Slept on it, and still feel completely gutted.. We are simply not any good, clearly a bottom 4 side in the comp and I would have zero confidence that we can beat any other side in the comp, even North worry me, because they play with a system and heart both things we severely lack.

only positives were Kennedy, played out of his skin and let’s see if he can back it up and Dow looks to be coming good, both may have just saved there careers.

Apart from that it was simply embarrassing,I see Levi was BOG in the 2s, what position did he play? Hopefully he comes in for Pittonet and we never see Pitt and TDK in the same side again.

There is no doubt the list is much better than bottom 4, so many under performing players, poor game plan, but the most glaring thing last night is the lack of effort particularly in the 1st half, 12 players failed to lay a tackle.

Need to the bottom of the issues quickly otherwise they will be lucky to win another game this year.

 

[myblueroan]

Of course they do.

But we can't just bin 'em all, can we?

We have more problems than you can poke a stick at, but the players we have are the players we have. Lots of pain to come (hopefully as little as possible), but the constant kicking of the players is absolute rubbish.

And if we're not here to support them, then why are we here?

Supporting the club. It's our club. We are helping it evolve by actively participating in it. Lots of negativity from supporters brings change.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Martin, Williams, Saad and Gov

What coll did in the trade season could be nothing if these 4 don't pull their fingers out and start making a big difference

Someone obviously thought getting these 4 to the blues would bring home 17

Right now no bacon, just porky

Martin was always brought in on potential, good kick, goes missing too often like all the other recruits.
Williams - lol I'm not sure how you turn up to your new $800,000 a year job fat and unfit, but Mcgov could do it, why not Williams too, disappointing so far but early days.
Mcgov - Horrible trade, been either horribly unfit or perpetually injured, has one good game and goes missing for 10.
Saad - Still early days, but pick 8 is a lot to pay and the $$$$ so HOPE he comes good.

Saad + Williams likely can, Mcgov complete bust atm but still 2 years to go (wohooo) so we will see, Martin ok but like I said above goes missing far too often.

Agree, club and players thought we were better than we were, we fully expect to play finals this year, supposed to win a flag by 2023 etc.