Autopsy Rd 14 Loss: Here comes another one, just like the other one

[La Dispute]

Docherty is the least of our issues at the moment.

He’s adapting to a new position, often having to keep pace with some of the best endurance runners in the league (fmd Whitfield ran him ragged in patches) while also running back to cover in defence.

I don’t think he really suits our game style, or is more suited to his customary back pocket role - which we are filling through Newman/Parks/Stocker, but we are just trying to get some free ball around the ground which he can do reasonably well.

It’s a shame he has lost so much of his agility and touch. Was watching a game from 2016 the other day, and he was exceptionally skilled and could change direction very quickly prior to injury. I don’t blame him for his output at all.

 

[BlueBayou]

That's exactly who lyon is

Interesting, 17. I don't actually disagree.

I'm just really worried that another failed MM type appointment will kill the place once and for all.

Maybe if a Sam Mitchell or similar would come along, say 'it will take a while, please be patient', etc, we could develop correctly and thoroughly.

I'm worried the monied denizens of the board don't want to be seen as losers, and will knee jerk their way forward, expecting their money will be able to buy their way out of problems as it does in their regular life.

A Messiah is not what we need, it would cause unrealistic expectations of a meteoric rise.

 

[jackn]

Remember how having Betts got us Martin and Williams and that was a good thing...

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Interesting, 17. I don't actually disagree.

I'm just really worried that another failed MM type appointment will kill the place once and for all.

Maybe if a Sam Mitchell or similar would come along, say 'it will take a while, please be patient', etc, we could develop correctly and thoroughly.

I'm worried the monied denizens of the board don't want to be seen as losers, and will knee jerk their way forward, expecting their money will be able to buy their way out of problems as it does in their regular life.

A Messiah is not what we need, it would cause unrealistic expectations of a meteoric rise.

If Teague goes, highly doubt the club will go with another inexperienced assistant coach. After all we're supposed to win a flag by 2023.

 

[BlueTongue]

Yeh it’s a weird one. I swore I didn’t want Lyon but he’s one who makes a bit of sense. Need a taskmaster coach who is desperate for success and is going to get the best out of the list we’ve put together.

He was strangely complimentary about our squad earlier in the year. Reckon he’s been angling.

Mark Williams for me, not Lyon. Is proven and is also largely credited for getting Melbourne up.

 

[BlueBayou]

None of this addresses anything I said - I don’t really know why you bothered quoting me.

I literally said he’s been sh*te and a poor leader for the last few weeks. That didn’t change tonight. Our tackle pressure as a whole side, not just Docherty was woeful tonight and tbh has been all year. My post was more about the idea that Docherty himself has been terrible the whole season when, to me, it’s only the last 3 weeks that have stood out. He’s not alone, and I agree that as the captain he should be setting a better example. So should his co-captain but that’s another story.

And then about making a young bloke a scapegoat - where did I say anything about that? I spoke about our team being imbalanced and my post explicitly mentioned 4 senior players. I don’t think the kids are the problem.

I get we’re all pissed off (and rightfully so) but I’m just raising a point of view for discussion. I don’t care if people disagree - that’s what a bloody forum is for.

Yep, we are all pissed off, and some vent harder than others. I've been guilty of caring way too much at times.

Ironic, is it not, that 'loose at HB' is exactly our biggest problem .......on the field.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

mentally exhausted? over a ball sport? that you're not even participating in? do you think you might have deeper issues beyond carlton?

Why do you do this every week man? Just really dumb personal s**t to try and make yourself seem like you're above the misery of another loss. You're obviously upset too, otherwise you wouldn't be up his ass. Or on here at all.

Furthermore - what if he did have deeper issues beyond Carlton? Why even go down the path of attacking someone for that?

You used to be funny.

 

[17SetMeFree]

Interesting, 17. I don't actually disagree.

I'm just really worried that another failed MM type appointment will kill the place once and for all.

Maybe if a Sam Mitchell or similar would come along, say 'it will take a while, please be patient', etc, we could develop correctly and thoroughly.

I'm worried the monied denizens of the board don't want to be seen as losers, and will knee jerk their way forward, expecting their money will be able to buy their way out of problems as it does in their regular life.

A Messiah is not what we need, it would cause unrealistic expectations of a meteoric rise.

i hear ya, but we're dying now, on our knees.
Lyon ain't a messiah, he is however, everything we don't have and is available.

 

[Thrawn]

HBF Depth

Well of course, he has like a billion posts.

 

[BlueBayou]

Mark Williams for me, not Lyon. Is proven and is also largely credited for getting Melbourne up.

Chocko would be an interesting choice. He has a good gig at Melbourne and reports I hear are he has made a big difference to their rise. I would not be adverse to the idea, It's sort of a middle road between 'training wheels' and ' over the hill'

 

[katmanblue]

Contractual obligation

I'm just here so i dont get fined.

 

[La Dispute]

Mark Williams for me, not Lyon. Is proven and is also largely credited for getting Melbourne up.

Reckon Leppitsch if we are looking at a guy who has been part of a successful team as an assistant, has had senior experience and has the general demeanour we are looking for in a head coach.

I still wouldn’t mind Pyke either.

 

[BlueBayou]

i hear ya, but we're dying now, on our knees.
Lyon ain't a messiah, he is however, everything we don't have and is available.

Maybe we just need a good rudder for a while... I don't disagree, just worried for the consequences.

 

[Gethelred]

I have two reactions to this game.

One: the GWS that turned up is the GWS that saw them into a flag only two years ago. They were brilliant, a week after being embarrassed with a draw against North. They average 57.9 tackles a game (was 53 prior to today; remember checking at quarter time) and laid 79 for the match, 26 of them in the first quarter. They average 95.5 marks a game, go at 72.6% disposal efficiency, and average 82.9 points for; against us, they had 138 marks, went at 79% disposal eff, and kicked 102 points. They showed up with a point to prove, and they proved it. Their effort today is not sustainable to them; they are capable of pulling their fingers out and playing this way to prove a point. The reason I'm bringing all this up is to demonstrate the fact that this is how they can play, what they're truly capable of if the effort is there. We continue to cop them the week after they've been embarrassed, at home, just after they get players back.

Two: why in absolute bug* can we never be the team with a point to prove???

We've had a week in which the club's eaten itself. We've been a team and a coaching department and a club that has been kicked around for almost an entire season. We've had it put on our coaches and on our players, and that is the response they give us to demonstrate how much they care?

For *'s sake, why did they go from Teague's gameplan to Bolton mini for a quarter, then switch back? The first half featured us playing the weirdest mixture between Teague and Bolton's gameplan, with an extra sitting roughly 25-35m further afield and man on man everywhere else; the players had forgotten how to make it work, and they either went over the short kick (then Pittonett or Parks would get in the ******* way of Jones and Weitering, and they'd get a goal over the back) or they'd ******* get lucky with a bounce on a ball that should've been knocked over the boundary by Parks or Jones, who went to ground to better enable themselves to inspect the growth of the grass in Western Sydney (at least that's what I assume they were doing, as there was no reason whatsoever for them to go to ground otherwise).

Why is Jack Martin playing? Why is he out there? Is he there to actively run away from the ball or to let players tackle him? Is he there to receive the ball on the outside? Why is he playing? Is he injured? If he is injured, why is he playing? WHY???

The club needs to sit down with Doc at the end of the season, and they need to come to terms with a few things. It breaks my heart to see him playing like this; he was the most courageous player on our list, bar none. He was perfectly fine to sit in gaps and let the monsters mow him down; he was desperate, he was brilliant defensively and offensively. He is a shadow of that player now. Gold Coast are getting more out of Brandon Ellis than we are Sam Docherty.

We can compound the mistake by continuing to push him, to try and work with him and to deal in the short-medium term with the mistakes he will continue to make - running past the ball, being unable to gather first try, miscuing kicks and handpasses - or we can tell him at the end of the year that he is still valued at Carlton but will be transitioned into the reserves captaincy and the coaching department. I am extremely sorry, but top level footy is not forgiving of the mistakes he's making. I wish we were better able to compensate for his deficiencies, but one should not be thinking that way of a captain.

The rest of the year should be used to redevelop the list's understanding of whatever deep zone they tried today and failed to get working, and to get the forwards kicking their set shots/refining their leading patterns. I do not care if it results in some more losses or floggings; this season is done. We need to have Harry, Charlie and Gov ready for round 1, and we need to have them capable of compensating for the fact that none of them have played together.

Beyond that, let the coaches that are around after the dust settles on the review manufacture a way that our stoppage setup can feed into the transition structures from the back half; ie, have complementary structures around the ball and ahead of it. I know that's a newfangled idea at Carlton, but hey.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Kennedy was BOG by a mile, thought he was outstanding... absolutely rapt for the kid, if there’s a level of heart and commitment you need to play with then look no further than this blokes game...

 

[17SetMeFree]

The first part is exactly the same argument for why we rolled Ratten. Poor fitness, defensively impotent, needed to improve standards with an experienced coach.

All of that is the vibe. You mention the all equal stuff, but you haven’t mentioned the fact many people said he had favourites and didn’t speak to some players or give time evenly in his past gigs.

I’m not happy with where we are and I’m sure changed of some sort need to be done. Maybe Ross is that. But our team is filled with attacking players, without another rebuilt or Ross completely changing his game style (unknown, been out of the game and his attacking foray was a disaster in his last year) / I don’t see how it works and no one is making the argument.

We’d need to do a mini rebuild, most of the players we’d be churning have little to no value.

We’ve also tried this path again or quick fixes and experienced coaches. Think a lot of Carlton fans are right to be very wary of this again.

He had a close relationship with his leadership group, and had an open door policy at both clubs.
He had players at the saints like robert eddie, mcgualter, gwilt, dawson, I could go on, he got them to play out of their skin
we have talent, its undisciplined, its rotting away, its been like this for too long

we have enough talent there, it needs work though

how many top 10 draft pics
how many players drafted from GWS (15)
we cant even get a finals gig

something is seriously wrong , and it permeates everywhere

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'm just here so i dont get fined.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Kennedy was BOG by a mile, thought he was outstanding... absolutely rapt for the kid, if there’s a level of heart and commitment you need to play with then look no further than this blokes game...

I have to put my hand up for running him down pre-game. Sorry Bam.

 

[BlueBayou]

We are talking as if Teague is already gone. (including me) As far as I'm aware he still has a job as head coach of CFC.

I continue to hope like blazes he can turn things around, but I think the efforts of the last two weeks are akin to Bolton's last fortnight, and a spiritless loss to the * was the final straw. A spiritless pair of losses to Weagles and GWS may be the death knell.

 

[SOS Rules]

Can someone please explain what we're trying to achieve when the opposition kicks out from full back. All our team out of our D50, without exception, stands 10-15 metres off their opponent and allows the opposition an easy outlet from our forward 50, from half back, from the wing and then its a kick to someone unopposed on the half forward flank and then its a kick into our D50. This kick is usually to a leading opposition forward but tonight it was was more of an entry like we regularly have into our forward line but we got outmarked at crucial times tonight and paid the price. This guarding off space is useless. When we're playing so half arsed can't the players be told to go one on one and at least challenge our opposition to beat someone in a contest. At the very least that's what I want to see. A contest.

Tonight's performance is largely down to the players but the coaches really need to be having a hard think about how we go about it. As a team we just don't seem to care.

The first quality our recruiters should be looking for in future recruits is competitiveness. I can handle it when we lose but its the way we lose that shits me.

 

[BlueBayou]

I have two reactions to this game.

One: the GWS that turned up is the GWS that saw them into a flag only two years ago. They were brilliant, a week after being embarrassed with a draw against North. They average 57.9 tackles a game (was 53 prior to today; remember checking at quarter time) and laid 79 for the match, 26 of them in the first quarter. They average 95.5 marks a game, go at 72.6% disposal efficiency, and average 82.9 points for; against us, they had 138 marks, went at 79% disposal eff, and kicked 102 points. They showed up with a point to prove, and they proved it. Their effort today is not sustainable to them; they are capable of pulling their fingers out and playing this way to prove a point. The reason I'm bringing all this up is to demonstrate the fact that this is how they can play, what they're truly capable of if the effort is there. We continue to cop them the week after they've been embarrassed, at home, just after they get players back.

Two: why in absolute bugfu** can we never be the team with a point to prove???

We've had a week in which the club's eaten itself. We've been a team and a coaching department and a club that has been kicked around for almost an entire season. We've had it put on our coaches and on our players, and that is the response they give us to demonstrate how much they care?

For fu**'s sake, why did they go from Teague's gameplan to Bolton mini for a quarter, then switch back? The first half featured us playing the weirdest mixture between Teague and Bolton's gameplan, with an extra sitting roughly 25-35m further afield and man on man everywhere else; the players had forgotten how to make it work, and they either went over the short kick (then Pittonett or Parks would get in the ******* way of Jones and Weitering, and they'd get a goal over the back) or they'd ******* get lucky with a bounce on a ball that should've been knocked over the boundary by Parks or Jones, who went to ground to better enable themselves to inspect the growth of the grass in Western Sydney (at least that's what I assume they were doing, as there was no reason whatsoever for them to go to ground otherwise).

Why is Jack Martin playing? Why is he out there? Is he there to actively run away from the ball or to let players tackle him? Is he there to receive the ball on the outside? Why is he playing? Is he injured? If he is injured, why is he playing? WHY???

The club needs to sit down with Doc at the end of the season, and they need to come to terms with a few things. It breaks my heart to see him playing like this; he was the most courageous player on our list, bar none. He was perfectly fine to sit in gaps and let the monsters mow him down; he was desperate, he was brilliant defensively and offensively. He is a shadow of that player now. Gold Coast are getting more out of Brandon Ellis than we are Sam Docherty.

We can compound the mistake by continuing to push him, to try and work with him and to deal in the short-medium term with the mistakes he will continue to make - running past the ball, being unable to gather first try, miscuing kicks and handpasses - or we can tell him at the end of the year that he is still valued at Carlton but will be transitioned into the reserves captaincy and the coaching department. I am extremely sorry, but top level footy is not forgiving of the mistakes he's making. I wish we were better able to compensate for his deficiencies, but one should not be thinking that way of a captain.

The rest of the year should be used to redevelop the list's understanding of whatever deep zone they tried today and failed to get working, and to get the forwards kicking their set shots/refining their leading patterns. I do not care if it results in some more losses or floggings; this season is done. We need to have Harry, Charlie and Gov ready for round 1, and we need to have them capable of compensating for the fact that none of them have played together.

Beyond that, let the coaches that are around after the dust settles on the review manufacture a way that our stoppage setup can feed into the transition structures from the back half; ie, have complementary structures around the ball and ahead of it. I know that's a newfangled idea at Carlton, but hey.

Thoughtful and articulate Geth. Kudos. You have a much better understanding of what our various gameplans are and how they are being executed than I, but I ask this.

Can any game plan, from the Red Fox, to Barrass, to Yabby, to Lethal, to Dimma be executed if the players just do not try?

What I saw in the last two games were a team who were not 'collectively' trying.

 

[La Dispute]

I have two reactions to this game.

One: the GWS that turned up is the GWS that saw them into a flag only two years ago. They were brilliant, a week after being embarrassed with a draw against North. They average 57.9 tackles a game (was 53 prior to today; remember checking at quarter time) and laid 79 for the match, 26 of them in the first quarter. They average 95.5 marks a game, go at 72.6% disposal efficiency, and average 82.9 points for; against us, they had 138 marks, went at 79% disposal eff, and kicked 102 points. They showed up with a point to prove, and they proved it. Their effort today is not sustainable to them; they are capable of pulling their fingers out and playing this way to prove a point. The reason I'm bringing all this up is to demonstrate the fact that this is how they can play, what they're truly capable of if the effort is there. We continue to cop them the week after they've been embarrassed, at home, just after they get players back.

Two: why in absolute bugfu** can we never be the team with a point to prove???

We've had a week in which the club's eaten itself. We've been a team and a coaching department and a club that has been kicked around for almost an entire season. We've had it put on our coaches and on our players, and that is the response they give us to demonstrate how much they care?

For fu**'s sake, why did they go from Teague's gameplan to Bolton mini for a quarter, then switch back? The first half featured us playing the weirdest mixture between Teague and Bolton's gameplan, with an extra sitting roughly 25-35m further afield and man on man everywhere else; the players had forgotten how to make it work, and they either went over the short kick (then Pittonett or Parks would get in the ******* way of Jones and Weitering, and they'd get a goal over the back) or they'd ******* get lucky with a bounce on a ball that should've been knocked over the boundary by Parks or Jones, who went to ground to better enable themselves to inspect the growth of the grass in Western Sydney (at least that's what I assume they were doing, as there was no reason whatsoever for them to go to ground otherwise).

Why is Jack Martin playing? Why is he out there? Is he there to actively run away from the ball or to let players tackle him? Is he there to receive the ball on the outside? Why is he playing? Is he injured? If he is injured, why is he playing? WHY???

The club needs to sit down with Doc at the end of the season, and they need to come to terms with a few things. It breaks my heart to see him playing like this; he was the most courageous player on our list, bar none. He was perfectly fine to sit in gaps and let the monsters mow him down; he was desperate, he was brilliant defensively and offensively. He is a shadow of that player now. Gold Coast are getting more out of Brandon Ellis than we are Sam Docherty.

We can compound the mistake by continuing to push him, to try and work with him and to deal in the short-medium term with the mistakes he will continue to make - running past the ball, being unable to gather first try, miscuing kicks and handpasses - or we can tell him at the end of the year that he is still valued at Carlton but will be transitioned into the reserves captaincy and the coaching department. I am extremely sorry, but top level footy is not forgiving of the mistakes he's making. I wish we were better able to compensate for his deficiencies, but one should not be thinking that way of a captain.

The rest of the year should be used to redevelop the list's understanding of whatever deep zone they tried today and failed to get working, and to get the forwards kicking their set shots/refining their leading patterns. I do not care if it results in some more losses or floggings; this season is done. We need to have Harry, Charlie and Gov ready for round 1, and we need to have them capable of compensating for the fact that none of them have played together.

Beyond that, let the coaches that are around after the dust settles on the review manufacture a way that our stoppage setup can feed into the transition structures from the back half; ie, have complementary structures around the ball and ahead of it. I know that's a newfangled idea at Carlton, but hey.

They played reasonably well, but it felt they were just going through the motions at times.

There was a clear intent to tackle, but that just seemed like a general design for the game. Teams go after Cripps and Walsh, and they largely kept 3 or 4 same mids at the stoppages.

Otherwise they were happy to dictate field position and play tempo footy without a heap of urgency in their movement. Gaps naturally opened up in our defence, as they do each week, and they picked out players pretty comfortably.

A better team would have smacked us on that effort.

 

[17SetMeFree]

I have two reactions to this game.

One: the GWS that turned up is the GWS that saw them into a flag only two years ago. They were brilliant, a week after being embarrassed with a draw against North. They average 57.9 tackles a game (was 53 prior to today; remember checking at quarter time) and laid 79 for the match, 26 of them in the first quarter. They average 95.5 marks a game, go at 72.6% disposal efficiency, and average 82.9 points for; against us, they had 138 marks, went at 79% disposal eff, and kicked 102 points. They showed up with a point to prove, and they proved it. Their effort today is not sustainable to them; they are capable of pulling their fingers out and playing this way to prove a point. The reason I'm bringing all this up is to demonstrate the fact that this is how they can play, what they're truly capable of if the effort is there. We continue to cop them the week after they've been embarrassed, at home, just after they get players back.

Two: why in absolute bugfu** can we never be the team with a point to prove???

We've had a week in which the club's eaten itself. We've been a team and a coaching department and a club that has been kicked around for almost an entire season. We've had it put on our coaches and on our players, and that is the response they give us to demonstrate how much they care?

For fu**'s sake, why did they go from Teague's gameplan to Bolton mini for a quarter, then switch back? The first half featured us playing the weirdest mixture between Teague and Bolton's gameplan, with an extra sitting roughly 25-35m further afield and man on man everywhere else; the players had forgotten how to make it work, and they either went over the short kick (then Pittonett or Parks would get in the ******* way of Jones and Weitering, and they'd get a goal over the back) or they'd ******* get lucky with a bounce on a ball that should've been knocked over the boundary by Parks or Jones, who went to ground to better enable themselves to inspect the growth of the grass in Western Sydney (at least that's what I assume they were doing, as there was no reason whatsoever for them to go to ground otherwise).

Why is Jack Martin playing? Why is he out there? Is he there to actively run away from the ball or to let players tackle him? Is he there to receive the ball on the outside? Why is he playing? Is he injured? If he is injured, why is he playing? WHY???

The club needs to sit down with Doc at the end of the season, and they need to come to terms with a few things. It breaks my heart to see him playing like this; he was the most courageous player on our list, bar none. He was perfectly fine to sit in gaps and let the monsters mow him down; he was desperate, he was brilliant defensively and offensively. He is a shadow of that player now. Gold Coast are getting more out of Brandon Ellis than we are Sam Docherty.

We can compound the mistake by continuing to push him, to try and work with him and to deal in the short-medium term with the mistakes he will continue to make - running past the ball, being unable to gather first try, miscuing kicks and handpasses - or we can tell him at the end of the year that he is still valued at Carlton but will be transitioned into the reserves captaincy and the coaching department. I am extremely sorry, but top level footy is not forgiving of the mistakes he's making. I wish we were better able to compensate for his deficiencies, but one should not be thinking that way of a captain.

The rest of the year should be used to redevelop the list's understanding of whatever deep zone they tried today and failed to get working, and to get the forwards kicking their set shots/refining their leading patterns. I do not care if it results in some more losses or floggings; this season is done. We need to have Harry, Charlie and Gov ready for round 1, and we need to have them capable of compensating for the fact that none of them have played together.

Beyond that, let the coaches that are around after the dust settles on the review manufacture a way that our stoppage setup can feed into the transition structures from the back half; ie, have complementary structures around the ball and ahead of it. I know that's a newfangled idea at Carlton, but hey.

That was most of the sentiment here around July/August last year. The injuries over the preseason were astounding - numerically and nature of same.
Here we are again...

Other clubs have worked out we don't run the other way hard, that's why if you notice, they do a double switch. They go one way, then they partly go back, only to slice us up down the middle , with multiple lead choices in their F50.
We are hopelessly outcoached and I dare say it's having a toll on the group. Docherty issues are all confidence, part body, mostly between the ears.

That mini spurt is a group that intrinsically, hates being beaten on, but all in all, we just went down swinging a little in the end

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I have to put my hand up for running him down pre-game. Sorry Bam.

Only one game but thought his game tonight was absolutely brilliant, thought myself that he was unfortunately looking against being retained on the list end of this year with the lack of progression unfortunately, more of these type of games and he’s certainly the player many of us were hoping he could be...

 

[bmaurizio]

Remember how having Betts got us Martin and Williams and that was a good thing...

Both Martin & Williams have gone backwards since joining our team, not a shadow of the players they were in past few seasons, there’s very poor development it’s obvious, I’m eagerly awaiting the review recommends.