Stephen Silvagni and Carlton

10571z

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You still just don't get it, so i'll keep explaining it. A club that is 5 years away from contending has a rare opportunity to fill a hole in the list with a stop gap for 1 year and then replaced with high end draft picks the following trade period. In return for alleviating salary pressure, aformentioned club recieved a 20 year old former pick 3 and pick 8. This is good for a rebuilding club that is lowering their age profile.

A contending club has all the pieces in place and does not need to lower their age profile, in fact, its they need the opposite.

For example if you were a club like North Melbourne, who have a high age profile and need to start a rebuild. (I think its fair to say they are a few years off.)
If they did a deal with Carlton (who hypothetically need to alleviate some salary cap pressure) where they took on Casboult, Jones, Lang and E.Curnow on 1 year contracts, in return we gave them Patrick Dow and pick 8 (Like Carlton & GWS). They would do it because they need to reset their age profile and rebuild. They can replace those contracts with draft picks and carry on the rebuild process with a head start at the end of the year.

For a club like Collingwood, they don't have the list space or the time to do this deal, it doesn't make sense to do it. Hopefully this clears it up for you. Theres more ways to explain it so i'll just keep going until you get it.
I certainly understand your theory but in practice is falls down.

Why?

The guys from GWS bring terrible culture being stop gap solutions.

Even the “targets” from GWS haven’t done an awful lot.

SOS would have been better off keeping blokes who he delisted and just kept building through draft picks. Cleaning out a list to virtually nothing rarely works.

Good clubs are built from some high draft picks, trades, rookies, draft gems. SOS has ignored most of that

Dunno why you bother...this guys hatred for SOS/Carlton runs deep as seen through multiple threads based on Carlton and he’ll continue to live in denial despite your efforts.
Live in denial? SOS now rumoured to be leaving... Carlton seem to agree with my theory he has done a terrible job
 

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jezzajay

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SOS now rumoured to be leaving... Carlton seem to agree with my theory he has done a terrible job
You’re basing your fluff on a rumour?!
Good stuff.
Keep on keeping on.
 

chunkylover53

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I certainly understand your theory but in practice is falls down.

Why?

The guys from GWS bring terrible culture being stop gap solutions.

Even the “targets” from GWS haven’t done an awful lot.

SOS would have been better off keeping blokes who he delisted and just kept building through draft picks. Cleaning out a list to virtually nothing rarely works.

Good clubs are built from some high draft picks, trades, rookies, draft gems. SOS has ignored most of that


Live in denial? SOS now rumoured to be leaving... Carlton seem to agree with my theory he has done a terrible job
Who should we have kept instead of delisted that would have contributed more than the GWS guys?

You keep ignoring my responses to you but what did you think of the god-awful list of players Collingwood bought in when Buckley arrived? Or the list that Richmond bought in. Do you not think that bringing in temporary players for extremely cheap is a normal thing to do for a club completely rejuvenating their list?
 

SickQwon

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I certainly understand your theory but in practice is falls down.

Why?

The guys from GWS bring terrible culture being stop gap solutions.

Even the “targets” from GWS haven’t done an awful lot.

SOS would have been better off keeping blokes who he delisted and just kept building through draft picks. Cleaning out a list to virtually nothing rarely works.

Good clubs are built from some high draft picks, trades, rookies, draft gems. SOS has ignored most of that


Live in denial? SOS now rumoured to be leaving... Carlton seem to agree with my theory he has done a terrible job
You actually raise a good point, one that I agree with. Hijaking players doesn't allow players to develop organically. It delays the development process should be used as an example of the risk involved in this scenario. But this is more of a question on how Carlton have developed their players in this time too. I think the misconception here is that just because they weren't in the first, it doesn't mean they weren't highly rated as juniors. You already know GWS had an abundance of first rounders to choose from so they inevitably had to get rid of some of them. The strategy makes sense and is logical in terms of fast-tracking the rebuild with more youth but at the cost of delaying the development and stability of the list. This should be your argument from the beginning.

The players are in their 1-3 years, so im willing to give them time to gel together. But if you expect them to be in their prime immediately then I don't see that as being reasonable.

Unexpectly you've also raised another good point. SOS was very quick to delist the stop gaps. Players like Lamb and Kerridge were very limited players but they were mature bodies we could've used this year. They could potentially have been the difference to some of those 'Honarable losses' this year and the Stocker trade wouldn't have looked so bad.
This is SOS refusing to deviate from a set plan of building long term because he didn't want to look at mature recruits until the new foundation/core players were drafted.

I'm glad you understand how this looks good on paper, Carlton didn't have the power of hindsight to see the outcome but it looked very promising without risking too much. But you've essentially ruined my night by being rational.
 

chunkylover53

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You still just don't get it, so i'll keep explaining it. A club that is 5 years away from contending has a rare opportunity to fill a hole in the list with a stop gap for 1 year and then replaced with high end draft picks the following trade period. In return for alleviating salary pressure, aformentioned club recieved a 20 year old former pick 3 and pick 8. This is good for a rebuilding club that is lowering their age profile.

A contending club has all the pieces in place and does not need to lower their age profile, in fact, its they need the opposite.

For example if you were a club like North Melbourne, who have a high age profile and need to start a rebuild. (I think its fair to say they are a few years off.)
If they did a deal with Carlton (who hypothetically need to alleviate some salary cap pressure) where they took on Casboult, Jones, Lang and E.Curnow on 1 year contracts, in return we gave them Patrick Dow and pick 8 (Like Carlton & GWS). They would do it because they need to reset their age profile and rebuild. They can replace those contracts with draft picks and carry on the rebuild process with a head start at the end of the year.

For a club like Collingwood, they don't have the list space or the time to do this deal, it doesn't make sense to do it. Hopefully this clears it up for you. Theres more ways to explain it so i'll just keep going until you get it.
It's very, very strange how critical Collingwood fans are of SOS' strategy thus far - he basically followed the Collingwood model.

Clean out previous regime's expendable senior players whilst they have currency, keep your leaders, get in plenty of draft picks, fill the immediate gaps with cheap ready-made B and C graders like Jesse White or Clinton Young, try to tread water whilst your fans get angry you slide down the ladder, decide whether to sack your coach or not, replace said list cloggers with kids breaking out complimenting their leaders and newly acquired free agents and recruits, hope it all clicks. I like the way Collingwood did it and I hope we can explode like they did. Unfortunately we probably cut a little too deep which hurt Bolton and our 2019 progress as a whole, but it's no busted it can't be turned around.
 

SickQwon

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It's very, very strange how critical Collingwood fans are of SOS' strategy thus far - he basically followed the Collingwood model.

Clean out previous regime's expendable senior players whilst they have currency, keep your leaders, get in plenty of draft picks, fill the immediate gaps with cheap ready-made B and C graders like Jesse White or Clinton Young, try to tread water whilst your fans get angry you slide down the ladder, decide whether to sack your coach or not, replace said list cloggers with kids breaking out complimenting their leaders and newly acquired free agents and recruits, hope it all clicks. I like the way Collingwood did it and I hope we can explode like they did. Unfortunately we probably cut a little too deep which hurt Bolton and our 2019 progress as a whole, but it's no busted it can't be turned around.
The strategy ultimately threw Bolton under the bus, it was obvious the club was going to go backwards before going forwards. No one in football has the patience for a long term rebuild. Bolton had to take the fall.
 

FyfeToAdelaide

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I certainly understand your theory but in practice is falls down.

Why?

The guys from GWS bring terrible culture being stop gap solutions.

Even the “targets” from GWS haven’t done an awful lot.

SOS would have been better off keeping blokes who he delisted and just kept building through draft picks. Cleaning out a list to virtually nothing rarely works.

Good clubs are built from some high draft picks, trades, rookies, draft gems. SOS has ignored most of that


Live in denial? SOS now rumoured to be leaving... Carlton seem to agree with my theory he has done a terrible job
Every Carlton fan believes they are about to be contenders. They somehow think everyone that doesn't know this or that SoS is the grestest is delusional. It's quite hilarious reading what they write.
 

10571z

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 23, 2006
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It's very, very strange how critical Collingwood fans are of SOS' strategy thus far - he basically followed the Collingwood model.

Clean out previous regime's expendable senior players whilst they have currency, keep your leaders, get in plenty of draft picks, fill the immediate gaps with cheap ready-made B and C graders like Jesse White or Clinton Young, try to tread water whilst your fans get angry you slide down the ladder, decide whether to sack your coach or not, replace said list cloggers with kids breaking out complimenting their leaders and newly acquired free agents and recruits, hope it all clicks. I like the way Collingwood did it and I hope we can explode like they did. Unfortunately we probably cut a little too deep which hurt Bolton and our 2019 progress as a whole, but it's no busted it can't be turned around.
I wouldn’t agree with this.

I’d say Leigh brown left and they tried to fill the void with Quinton Lynch and Jesse White.

Other stop gap fills were a attempt to still win a flag in Buckley’s first 4 years.
 

jezzajay

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God I hope it is just a rumour...
He’s doing an amazing job at Carlton,hope you guys keep him forever!
Your sarcasm is noted...yawn.
 

Nuwanda

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Nov 21, 2018
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It's very, very strange how critical Collingwood fans are of SOS' strategy thus far - he basically followed the Collingwood model.

Clean out previous regime's expendable senior players whilst they have currency, keep your leaders, get in plenty of draft picks, fill the immediate gaps with cheap ready-made B and C graders like Jesse White or Clinton Young, try to tread water whilst your fans get angry you slide down the ladder, decide whether to sack your coach or not, replace said list cloggers with kids breaking out complimenting their leaders and newly acquired free agents and recruits, hope it all clicks. I like the way Collingwood did it and I hope we can explode like they did. Unfortunately we probably cut a little too deep which hurt Bolton and our 2019 progress as a whole, but it's no busted it can't be turned around.
Buckley worked on his ‘own’ team and the values he wanted to instil in his team (rightly or wrongly). There were players there that didn’t fit the culture he was trying to developer or were getting on in age. Players like Didak and Heath Shaw (who just wouldn’t tow the line). JDG and Stephenson were our only high draft picks. Moore was father-son. We traded top 10 picks high for Treloar. We drafted in JDG when we lost a premiership/All Australian player in his prime. But we asked for Crisp as well. Grundy a pick in the 20s, Maynard a pick in the 30s, Langdon and Phillips in the 60s. Sier in the 30s (our first pick). We traded second round picks for Hoskin Elliott, Greenwood and Aish. Howe and. Varcoe were traded in for essentially Kennedy and Lumumba.

I think the primary difference is that we drafted well with picks 30-65 and weren’t afraid to trade in some experienced players. A bad situation in losing Beams turned out to be a great situation in getting JDG, Crisp and Greenwood.

I think that’s where SOS has struggled. There is a lack of balance in the list. You don’t need to bank up and use a whole lot of top 10 or first round picks. There are gems later in the draft and so you should have the confidence in trading some of those draft picks for good, experienced players.

I suppose during his time at GWS he didn’t need to worry (or have the opportunity) about drafting a hidden gem given the plethora of first round picks he had.
 
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SickQwon

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Every Carlton fan believes they are about to be contenders. They somehow think everyone that doesn't know this or that SoS is the grestest is delusional. It's quite hilarious reading what they write.
Where is the post where I said Carlton are contending, I almost wrote a whole essay on SOS employing a long term strategy because we are not currently contending. wtf?
 

JohnnyFontane90

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Every Carlton fan believes they are about to be contenders. They somehow think everyone that doesn't know this or that SoS is the grestest is delusional. It's quite hilarious reading what they write.
SOS managed to get 2 first round picks for a SANFL player.

also managed to get a second rounder for troy menzel.

he's not perfect but he has his moments. it's only fair we look at his good deals as well as his bad ones in this thread wouldn't you agree?
 

SickQwon

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Also got first round draft picks for Henderson, Yarran and Tom Bell + a 2nd rounder.

Like shelling peas for ol’ SOS.
Not bad at the trade table. Shame all those players who've played under 50 games weren't immediate superstars. No point progressing with them, I guess :rolleyes:.
 

LordLucifer

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The way opposition supporters are carrying on you'd think Silvagni was the only List Manager to have picked up a player from GWS who didn't go on to become a long-term effective player for their new club.

Here are some GWS players who either aren't playing any more or for a variety of reasons, are still trying to fully establish themselves :

Curtly Hampton (Adel), Cam McCarthy (Freo), Jon O'Rourke (Haw), Tom Boyd (WB), James Stewart (Ess), Paul Ahern (NM), Shaun Edwards (Syd), Jack Hombsch (Port), Dom Tyson (Melb)
 

10571z

Norm Smith Medallist
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The way opposition supporters are carrying on you'd think Silvagni was the only List Manager to have picked up a player from GWS who didn't go on to become a long-term effective player for their new club.

Here are some GWS players who either aren't playing any more or for a variety of reasons, are still trying to fully establish themselves :

Curtly Hampton (Adel), Cam McCarthy (Freo), Jon O'Rourke (Haw), Tom Boyd (WB), James Stewart (Ess), Paul Ahern (NM), Shaun Edwards (Syd), Jack Hombsch (Port), Dom Tyson (Melb)
The difference is you’ve named 9 blokes from 9 different clubs. Not 10+ from one.

If SOS took a gamble with even a handful I don’t think anyone would bat an eyelid. It’s the fact it’s taken over half a side of GWS blokes and it’s possible less than 2 will have decent careers at Carlton
 

Rich01

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The strategy ultimately threw Bolton under the bus, it was obvious the club was going to go backwards before going forwards. No one in football has the patience for a long term rebuild. Bolton had to take the fall.
A shame that a club preaching patience to its fan base had to sacrifice the coach to do so.
 

Drewie11

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SOS managed to get 2 first round picks for a SANFL player.

also managed to get a second rounder for troy menzel.

he's not perfect but he has his moments. it's only fair we look at his good deals as well as his bad ones in this thread wouldn't you agree?
Then went and picked O’Brien and Dekoning and traded for Kennedy.... so basically has done nothing with those picks so far
 

Rich01

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you have no idea who you would have picked. if you knew how good dunkley was then why trade the pick? the fact is no one knew how good dunkley was going to be including carlton, hawthorn, brisbane and many other clubs that passed on him.
Was common knowledge amongst Richmond faithful we were into him. And so were Carlton. But we were in flag mode and traded away the pick. And SOS overlooked him for Cuningham for some reason. Recruiters are funny beasts, sometimes they overlook a more talented player on draft night for another because he’s late to a scheduled meeting. Sometimes they bet the farm on a player they rate much higher than other clubs. Time usually tells on these decisions, as it’s starting to do on the Dunkley miss.
 

jezzajay

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A lack of knowledge of these players shows here, it's like me saying Fogharty and Gallucci are busts because they are not All Australians yet.
Truly laughable the 'geniuses' in here. You would think we are talking to 'List Managers' in here that know everything...and are better credentialed then SOS himself. :think:
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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Was common knowledge amongst Richmond faithful we were into him. And so were Carlton. But we were in flag mode and traded away the pick. And SOS overlooked him for Cuningham for some reason. Recruiters are funny beasts, sometimes they overlook a more talented player on draft night for another because he’s late to a scheduled meeting. Sometimes they bet the farm on a player they rate much higher than other clubs. Time usually tells on these decisions, as it’s starting to do on the Dunkley miss.
And Richmond selected Rioli that season, the 5 taken after him were Himmelberg, Doedee, Gresham, Burton and Fiorini.

Richmond now have a stack of better small forwards all taken with later picks and Rioli is just a fringe contributor in and out of a side with some key injuries.

Recruiters are funny beasts.
 

Rich01

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And Richmond selected Rioli that season, the 5 taken after him were Himmelberg, Doedee, Gresham, Burton and Fiorini.

Richmond now have a stack of better small forwards all taken with later picks and Rioli is just a fringe contributor in and out of a side with some key injuries.

Recruiters are funny beasts.
Rioli was key to us winning the prelim in 2017, but hasn’t been the same since his broken foot sustained in our premiership. It’s a shame he hasn’t really had a run at it for the good part of 18 months.

Hoping he gets a better run at it in 2020, but geez he was electric in our finals in 2017. It was a master stroke recruiting him and the forward pressure he created was a key to us winning the flag.

And I wouldn’t say we have a stack of better small forwards than Rioli, but can see how you would think that with each of Butler, Castagna and Bolton all being able to walk into the Carlton senior senior side.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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Rioli was key to us winning the prelim in 2017, but hasn’t been the same since his broken foot sustained in our premiership. It’s a shame he hasn’t really had a run at it for the good part of 18 months.

Hoping he gets a better run at it in 2020, but geez he was electric in our finals in 2017. It was a master stroke recruiting him and the forward pressure he created was a key to us winning the flag.

And I wouldn’t say we have a stack of better small forwards than Rioli, but can see how you would think that with each of Butler, Castagna and Bolton all being able to walk into the Carlton senior senior side.
It’s amazing how injuries can stagnate the development of 20 year olds.

Rioli was dropped ahead of those guys + Baker too. Not sure how supporting Carlton clouds my judgement. We did have the best small forward of the last decade.
 
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