Welcome: 2021 Pick #6 - Josh Rachele

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AFC979810

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 5, 2009
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I disagree. If you prove yourself while you're at your AFL club, you get more opportunities.

I don't disagree with the fact that you can prove yourself regardless of draft position. Also -I don't think that draft position is viewed negatively once you have established yourself. Nobody cared that Dane Swan and Robbie Gray were pick 50.

Not even close to a hard-and-fast rule that higher draft picks get more opportunities and liberties by default. Plenty of examples of such

Gallucci, our first round pick in 2016, spent less years on our list as the guys drafted 51st (EH) and 75th (Davis) in the same draft, and as many years on our list as Poholke.

Rookie pick Charlie Cameron got almost as many AFL games in his first year as our first pick (Matt Crouch), while Knight didn't even play.

Terrible examples that work against your point.

Galluci was gifted 27 average games (rightly so) over the first three years on the list due to him being a first round draft pick. Davis/EH were both long term projects that combined for 21 games in those first three years. I will tell you right now that if Galluci was a pick in the 40's he wouldn't have played 27 games.

Charlie Cameron and Matt Crouch - I am not sure what the point is. Sure one was on the rookie list and the other was pick 23. Both played the same amount of games in their first year and turned into All Australians.

Hell, our top 2 pick, and arguably the most talented prospect to come into the club in years (Thilthorpe), was only our third 2020 draftee to make his debut this year

Not sure you want to use Thilthorpe as the example here. Our highest draft pick played more games in his first season than 18 of the other 19* first round draft picks we selected since 2000. Its even more impressive considering he is 200cm and big boys notoriously take more time to adjust to AFL level. *The 19th is Brodie Smith who played the same amount of games (14).

Sure, there's the occasional example of draftees being played earlier than they should be based on 'hype', but form once you get into the league, both in training and in reserves games, is what mostly counts

Well yeah - Your ability to play football is ultimately what counts in the end.

However - Draft stock does not mean diddly squat. It is important. It always has been and always will be.
 

Danger in Texas

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I don't disagree with the fact that you can prove yourself regardless of draft position. Also -I don't think that draft position is viewed negatively once you have established yourself. Nobody cared that Dane Swan and Robbie Gray were pick 50.
Yep, no one was ever trying argue against this point. Of course no-one cared that Swan and Gray were drafted sub-50, once they proved themselves to be quality players
Terrible examples that work against your point.

Galluci was gifted 27 average games (rightly so) over the first three years on the list due to him being a first round draft pick. Davis/EH were both long term projects that combined for 21 games in those first three years. I will tell you right now that if Galluci was a pick in the 40's he wouldn't have played 27 games.
Firstly, how can someone be 'rightly gifted' games? You're either gifted games, or you're rightly given games

Secondly, Davis was a medium-height, reasonably well-performed, overage prospect that was taken as one of the last picks in the draft - barely the classic definition of 'long-term'. EH might have been more of a long-term project due to stature, but he's still spent two more years on an AFL list than Gallucci and Poholke - that's still being given more opportunity to succeed, is it not?

Thirdly, how is it relevant to make hypotheticals of Gallucci being taken in the 40's? Our recruitment team thought he was worthy of being taken at pick 16, and he didn't live up to expectations over his four years at the club - simple as that

Charlie Cameron and Matt Crouch - I am not sure what the point is. Sure one was on the rookie list and the other was pick 23. Both played the same amount of games in their first year and turned into All Australians.
It's exactly the point. Charlie and Matt were drafted many draft positions apart, yet still made a similar amount of AFL appearances, based on performance merit, in their first year. Both proved themselves enough to be given early AFL experience. No 'high draftee' bias visible there?
Not sure you want to use Thilthorpe as the example here. Our highest draft pick played more games in his first season than 18 of the other 19* first round draft picks we selected since 2000. Its even more impressive considering he is 200cm and big boys notoriously take more time to adjust to AFL level. *The 19th is Brodie Smith who played the same amount of games (14).
If being a high draft pick allows one to be 'afforded more liberties' and be 'gifted more opportunities', our highest draft pick ever would have played round 1, no? McAsey did. Jones did. Fogarty did. Milera did. Yet Thilthorpe had to wait a number of rounds, unlike some of our other 2020 draftees
Well yeah - Your ability to play football is ultimately what counts in the end.

However - Draft stock does not mean diddly squat. It is important. It always has been and always will be.
Again, I get that some players have been gifted games based on their draft position in the past, but I would honestly like a bit more explanation on how it's so vitally important once you get into the league, because your point is still very unclear
 

AFC979810

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Yep, no one was ever trying argue against this point. Of course no-one cared that Swan and Gray were drafted sub-50, once they proved themselves to be quality players

Firstly, how can someone be 'rightly gifted' games? You're either gifted games, or you're rightly given games

If you are a first round pick then I want them to be gifted games. If we invested that much draft capital in them we need to find out if they can play and they need to be given more of an opportunity than other players on the list.

What had Galluci shown after the first 2 years on our list? He wasn't absolutely dominating SANFL and his first 15 games were meh. We then gave him a block of 10 games in a row before dropping him in for good in 2019. There is noway we would have given him that block of games if he wasn't a first round pick.

Secondly, Davis was a medium-height, reasonably well-performed, overage prospect that was taken as one of the last picks in the draft - barely the classic definition of 'long-term'. EH might have been more of a long-term project due to stature, but he's still spent two more years on an AFL list than Gallucci and Poholke - that's still being given more opportunity to succeed, is it not?

Not sure what the comparison is to Poholke who was pick 44.

We have rookie listed Ben Davis and he has played 6 games for us over the past 4 years and is now on the rookie list. Do you think we are we committed to getting games into him? Nah - he is on our list as depth and we can wait and see if he gets better. If he does great, if he doesn't it doesn't matter as he was a long shot anyway.

The difference is that we invested a very important first round draft pick into Galluci. We forced him into the side despite his rather poor performance to give him an extended run to see if he could cut the mustard. He obviously couldn't and was dropped after round 16 for the rest of 2019. Then when he got hurt it was a rather easy decision to cut him.


Thirdly, how is it relevant to make hypotheticals of Gallucci being taken in the 40's? Our recruitment team thought he was worthy of being taken at pick 16, and he didn't live up to expectations over his four years at the club - simple as that

Its the whole point of this conversation. You are saying that once you are drafted - your draft position is 100% irrelevant. I am saying its 100% the opposite and that first round draftees ARE and SHOULD BE treated different and given more opportunities to succeed.

I'll say it again for those in the back. Gallucci wouldn't have been given that run of games in 2019 IF he wasn't a first round pick.


It's exactly the point. Charlie and Matt were drafted many draft positions apart, yet still made a similar amount of AFL appearances, based on performance merit, in their first year. Both proved themselves enough to be given early AFL experience. No 'high draftee' bias visible there?

Well in that specific case you are correct. There was no bias. However - if they both are terrible - which one gets a second chance? The rookie listed player or the high draft pick?

If being a high draft pick allows one to be 'afforded more liberties' and be 'gifted more opportunities', our highest draft pick ever would have played round 1, no? McAsey did. Jones did. Fogarty did. Milera did. Yet Thilthorpe had to wait a number of rounds, unlike some of our other 2020 draftees

Really clutching at straws there mate. I don't think playing rd 1 as a rookie means anything.

Let me ask you this. If McAsey stinks it up this year and next and we don't re-sign him when his contract finishes up. Do you think he will get picked up by another club and if so - Why?

Again, I get that some players have been gifted games based on their draft position in the past, but I would honestly like a bit more explanation on how it's so vitally important once you get into the league, because your point is still very unclear

So you are saying players have been gifted games based on their draft position in the past. But then you are saying that draft position is completely irrelevant once you are on an AFL list.

Only one of your two statements can be correct.
 

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Danger in Texas

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I can't be bothered arguing this, there's many flaws in that argument, I'll just leave this here though:
Sure, there's the occasional example of draftees being played earlier than they should be based on 'hype', but form once you get into the league, both in training and in reserves games, is what mostly counts
So you are saying players have been gifted games based on their draft position in the past. But then you are saying that draft position is completely irrelevant once you are on an AFL list.

Only one of your two statements can be correct.
No need to create false narratives, mate
 

spenze

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Oct 16, 2011
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Krakouer can't have been on too much. He was one of the few players (possibly just him and Josh Fraser?) who went to the Suns that didn't earn their former club a first round compensation pick.

I reckon it was a 3 year 1 mil deal, at the time it was being speculated that he was going home to Freo but the offer GC had was significantly higher than Fremantles so he went there. At the end of the day, he left after one season
 

Danger in Texas

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Surely there's more 1st round picks who get a second chance at another club even without playing a single game at their original club

Than there are 3rd round picks who do the same
Now I'll agree this is true - many clubs seem to prefer to take an immediate second chance on players that were taken earlier in the draft, even if the draftee hasn't shown anything to suggest they'll succeed at the top level

That said, once a player comes into a club, and, say, performs either above or below expectations - the large majority of the time, the price paid for said player loses a decent amount of relevance
 

cmndstab

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Surely there's more 1st round picks who get a second chance at another club even without playing a single game at their original club

Than there are 3rd round picks who do the same

I don't know... first round picks tend to get at least a few games just based on the reputation that comes with being a first round pick in the first place.

Ignoring the 2020 draft as it's still very early, from the 2015-2019 period there are only three first round picks yet to play a game for the club that drafted them, let alone then being picked up by a second club. Ely Smith (Pick 21 2018, Brisbane), Jez McLennan (Pick 23 2018, Gold Coast), and Cooper Stephens (Pick 16 2019, Geelong). All three are still at their original clubs.

I'm pretty sure you have to go back to 2014 to find a player taken in the first round who never played a game for their original club, but then went to another club. Jarrod Pickett (Pick 4 2014, GWS) who was traded to Carlton in 2016.
 

MRB37

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I mean, in the case of Krakouer, the Suns had free reign to poach an uncontracted player from each club in the AFL. Presumably Krakouer was just the best available option at Port and they figured, why not. Got a few games out of him while they were getting established, and then let him go.

With Atkins, they went out of their way to woo him over with a mammoth deal. I'll admit to being a bit of an Atkins fan, but the offer they made him was absolutely ludicrous.
Atkins problem too is he can be a good player in a good side, but generally has never been a good player in a bad side and it's obvious to everyone which one Gold Coast has always been.
 

Pugsley

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Wrong, but its a nice sounding cliche though.

Clubs put significantly more resources into high draftees, they are afforded more liberties and gifted more opportunities. Ya think the club would have let No 71 draft pick Aaron Kite stay in Melbourne in 2008 like they did Patrick Dangerfield?

If you are drafted high it also means a big advantage in getting a 2nd chance at AFL level. sh*t, just looking at our club alone do you think we were able to trade away Fergus Watts & John Meesan based on their AFL play or the fact they were 1st round draftees? Do you think delisted players Darren Pfeiffer & James Sellar are given 2nd chances at other clubs for another other reason than they were first round draftees?

Daniel Gorringe survived 6 seasons in the AFL based purely on the fact he was a top 10 pick.


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Betts are off

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Me too. Fun player to watch when he was at his peak. His game had a bit of everything.
I remember hearing that before he was drafted Stiffy kicked 150 goals in a season for his local men's A grade team, as a 15 or 16 year old.

Amazing considering we essentially played him as a career back pocket
 

spenze

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I remember hearing that before he was drafted Stiffy kicked 150 goals in a season for his local men's A grade team, as a 15 or 16 year old.

Amazing considering we essentially played him as a career back pocket

Last thing you need in a forward line is someone with goal sense and a burst of speed...
 

Mr_Moogle

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Can we rename this to the Not Josh Rachele thread?

Everything and everyone seems to be discussed in here but not Rachele.

Anyway, it's good to hear he's impressing the playing group.
It's the Tom Doedee thread all over again.
 

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