Who will be better in 2024? Hawthorn or Essendon?

[Dewyyyyy]

This entire list looks like a no brainer

Well tbh, most of it is. Theres a lot of talent between two afl clubs that you can just pick the clear best 10 players from either side and set & forget.

 

[Don Won]

Durham is good but again, I don’t think he makes a best 22 of both sides. Maybe soon but not right now. He’d be pushing for that Parish/Worpel spot.

I would have him in our best 5 players on ‘24 form

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Gresham is also being picked over Macdonald every day of the week, this season alone he is averaging more goals, goal assists, score involvements, inside 50’s and clearances.

Jade Gresham is solid but if you wanted to you could, his averages are.
2024:
15 disposals @ 72%
4.6 inside 50s
231 metres gained
6 contested possessions
2.3 clearances
1.1 goals
1.1 goal assists
5.8 score involvements


MacDonalds for you.
2024:
16 disposals @ 70%
3 inside 50s
298 metres gained
5 contested possessions
1 clearance
0.9 goals
0.8 goal assists
4.5 score involvements

Hardly a difference, if your choice is to play Gresham over MacDonald go for it. Either or doesn’t phase me. But there’s no massive gap either way and it’s preference, subjective to the individual.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I would have him in our best 5 players on ‘24 form

I did my side based off 2023 and 2024. Otherwise Frost is making the team has played very well in 2024.

Durham is a gun and I rate him highly but I don’t think I can have him there yet. As I said too I’d change the team come end of year and leading into 2025.

 

[Don Won]

I did my side based off 2023 and 2024. Otherwise Frost is making the team has played very well in 2024.

Durham is a gun and I rate him highly but I don’t think I can have him there yet. As I said too I’d change the team come end of year and leading into 2025.

I guess it is your team so you get the final say

 

[Milanista28]

Bombers will be better than Hawks this year.

/endthread

Hawks still closer to winning a flag than them.

Why are the Hawks closer?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I guess it is your team so you get the final say

It’s more so off form 23/24 but also just roles wise. I saw in the original post he had stringer at FF but if I’m coaching I’d rather have two genuine talls.

Hence also having a dynamic approach to the midfield. It isn’t to say people are wrong or right. Albeit there can be some outlandish claims.

 

[emblurr]

Jade Gresham

11

Jade Gresham

Age

26

Ht

177cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

7.2

4star

M

3.2

3star

T

2.7

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

17.5

4star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.8

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

2.0

3star

G

0.5

4star

D

11.8

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

5.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.4

5star

G

0.4

3star

is solid but if you wanted to you could, his averages are.
2024:
15 disposals @ 72%
4.6 inside 50s
231 metres gained
6 contested possessions
2.3 clearances
1.1 goals
1.1 goal assists
5.8 score involvements
15 Pressure acts

MacDonalds for you.
2024:
16 disposals @ 70%
3 inside 50s
298 metres gained
5 contested possessions
1 clearance
0.9 goals
0.8 goal assists
4.5 score involvements
10.5 Pressure acts



I'm taking Gresham over MacDonald every day averaging this. You can also add Gresham is averaging 15 Pressure acts to 10.5 of Macdonald.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Jade Gresham is solid but if you wanted to you could, his averages are.
2024:
15 disposals @ 72%
4.6 inside 50s
231 metres gained
6 contested possessions
2.3 clearances
1.1 goals
1.1 goal assists
5.8 score involvements
15 Pressure acts

MacDonalds for you.
2024:
16 disposals @ 70%
3 inside 50s
298 metres gained
5 contested possessions
1 clearance
0.9 goals
0.8 goal assists
4.5 score involvements
10.5 Pressure acts



I'm taking Gresham over MacDonald every day averaging this. You can also add Gresham is averaging 15 Pressure acts to 10.5 of Macdonald.

That’s entirely your choice. I don’t particularly rate Gresham but that’s a me thing. The stats aren’t that far apart so either or.

 

[Philhawk]

Why are the Hawks closer?

Purely my opinion.

I think the ceiling is far higher for our young midfield.

I think you’ve got us pipped for key positions, but we have talent coming through and arguably will collect even more next few drafts with our unfortunately high draft position.

I think Brad Scott is a terrific coach who will have you there abouts, but similar to his time at North - you won’t win a flag unless some elite players emerge/can be recruited which I can’t currently see happening.

 

[Philhawk]

Jade Gresham is solid but if you wanted to you could, his averages are.
2024:
15 disposals @ 72%
4.6 inside 50s
231 metres gained
6 contested possessions
2.3 clearances
1.1 goals
1.1 goal assists
5.8 score involvements
15 Pressure acts

MacDonalds for you.
2024:
16 disposals @ 70%
3 inside 50s
298 metres gained
5 contested possessions
1 clearance
0.9 goals
0.8 goal assists
4.5 score involvements
10.5 Pressure acts



I'm taking Gresham over MacDonald every day averaging this. You can also add Gresham is averaging 15 Pressure acts to 10.5 of Macdonald.

Very fair analysis. CMAC is also just 21. To my point above, we’ve only glimpsed his potential.

 

[Shane Heard]

December 23’

Hobbs, Martin, Parish, Zerrett, Tsatas, Setterfield, Caldwell, Durham…and someone rucking..that’s a midfield that will take us to top 4 finals glory.

You know it makes sense.

My wish came true…

But even better, Goldy has brought a new dimension to our CBs and general throw ups with his sublime taps and palm work.

And …Stringer is fit and performing wonderful cameos in our centre bounces!

Also..Young Perkins is quickly learning the art of extraction at CBs and “stoppages” and is doing pretty bloody well. ..then he got injured.

We’re going alright.

Hawks will be up there in 3 years. Mitchell is a carbon copy psycho like his old coach and obsessed with winning. Little man syndrome.

And that’s good news for hawthorn.

He’s a HFC immortal. As big as Hird or Bomber at EFC coaching or Bucks at Pieland.

Mitchell will be given unhindered time to develop this side and weed out the weaknesses. And then recruit diligently to fill those gaps.

Like all good finals teams have, Hawthorn need to find hard nosed, skilful soldiers who can deliver strong performances in the back 6.

Meanwhile…I know for a fact that the HFC coterie group absolutely adores SM and his appointment has been in the works for many years. Back when he did his apprenticeship at WC.

So he has ultimate backing from all corners of the club and can forge ahead with a new batch of young blokes and try to create a new Hawthorn era.

Time will tell if he succeeds.

 

[Yoda_]

Is this here and now, based off 2024? Or let’s say 2023 & 2024? I’m gonna make my side based off the latter.

its the hear and now hence Will Day (1 game) has made the bench and Dyson Heppell has made the wing

 

[Dewyyyyy]

its the hear and now hence Will Day (1 game) has made the bench and Dyson Heppell has made the wing

Gotcha, I did a different one but I can agree it’s harder with the injuries, form etc

 

[Yoda_]

So I have had a go. My side would be a mixture of 2024 and 2023. Will give reasons for each selection and happy to discuss. This would be the side picked if you wanted to win from now, imagining everyone is fit also.

I have done this with structure also in mind.

BACKLINE
Andrew McGrath - A no brainer with his ability to defend and also provide quality run
Ben McKay - Also a no brainer as the full back, lock down ability is good and quality intercepting capacity
Blake Hardwick - Has played a little forward but everyone knows he is quality defensively, one of the premier lockdown small defenders

Jordan Ridley - Very good player who is just composure in a player, utter class, definite pick.
James Sicily - First picked defensively, he’s a superstar and able to lockdown if needed but ideally is the main distributer from d50 and intercept mammoth, lock no brainer.
Nic Martin - Has played down back, able to intercept but mainly his run and carry off half back, distribution at a high level, clear pick.

MIDFIELD
Todd Goldstein - Toss up between him and Meek but I think the experience would be good and has the long term form behind him, different story end of 2024, first use to midfielders.
Will Day - Hawks B&F 2023 and just back from injury, at his best is a dynamic and star level midfielder, no brainer.
Jai Newcombe - AA squad 2023 and a minor form slump is irrelevant he is a clear lock and just a gun, no brainer.

Xavier Duursma - Is better than the other wing options with Heppell and D’Ambrosio the others not selected, good option.
Zach Merrett - An absolute star and is a no brainer.
Karl Amon - First picked wing option, experience but a fast, high engine and long kicking wing, clear as day.

FORWARDLINE
Dylan Moore - Star, can roll into the middle but is a no brainer here.
Mitch Lewis - Injury ridiculed in 2024 and not able to get continuity but is a star forward when fit absolute no brainer.
Kyle Langford - Superb 2023 and continued the form this year, great third tall option.

Jake Stringer - Good player and is a clear pick, can be up and down but can open games by himself
Peter Wright - Need another tall and is a good player, can be up and down, but rounds out a good spine.
Jack Ginnivan - Disliked by opposition supporters but he is a good and smart small forward, able to push up the ground.

INTERCHANGE
Connor MacDonald - Able to play forward and up the ground, has proven classy and an ability to finish, just pips Perkins/Gresham/Breust.
Darcy Parish - Is a very good ball winner and proven quality, sits on the rotation as the other midfielders are more dynamic.
James Worpel - Bull and a good player but sits on the outside of rotations like Parish due to the other midfielders being more dynamic.
Jack Scrimshaw - Playing as a key defender and also able to intercept well, quality ball use from d50.

Team breakdown
Hawthorn:
DEF - 3
MID - 4
FWD - 4
TOTAL - 11

Essendon:
DEF - 4
MID - 4
FWD - 3
TOTAL - 11

Notable omissions
Mason Redman
Jarman Impey
Sam Durham
Archie Perkins
Jade Gresham
Josh Weddle
Dyson Heppell
Lloyd Meek
Will Setterfield
Jye Caldwell
Massimo D’Ambrosio
Sam Draper
Sam Frost
Luke Breust
Mabior Chol

There’s youth no listed here but talking purely 2024, that’s the side.

There will be clear changes by end of 2024 but this is it so far. Happy to hear rebuttals.

Newcombe and Parish are both down on there best but Darcy is still comfortably better in 2024. Goldstein, Worpel, Parish and Merret I would argue is the starting quartet.

Ginnivan you could argue is the best small forward option from both clubs which is a sad indictment. Neat player when 'on'

Apart from that, looks like we agree on the main players (mostly), you're hawks bias will take you Hawthorn direction, my Bombers glasses will lead me that way.

good job overall

 

[Yoda_]

Gotcha, I did a different one but I can agree it’s harder with the injuries, form etc

makes it easier id have thought. Front and centre.

Jordan Ridley starts over Blake Hardwick every day of the week and twice on Sunday for example but with injury and form, Hardwick gets the nod for example

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Newcombe and Parish are both down on there best but Darcy is still comfortably better in 2024. Goldstein, Worpel, Parish and Merret I would argue is the starting quartet.

Ginnivan you could argue is the best small forward option from both clubs which is a sad indictment. Neat player when 'on'

Apart from that, looks like we agree on the main players (mostly), you're hawks bias will take you Hawthorn direction, my Bombers glasses will lead me that way.

good job overall

I think the main thing is my belief of dynamic approach in the middle & also not necessarily bias of teams but youth. I’ve seen the high end talents and production of Day and Newcombe last season and my belief is I’d pick both over Parish on field. Albeit it’s quite irrelevant given Parish role as is Worpels will stay the same either way as the inside midfielder.

I do like the Dons tho, actually a member through a free membership haha and have a lot of mates support them. Also doing work experience here and there. It’s good to see more.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

makes it easier id have thought. Front and centre.

Jordan Ridley starts over Blake Hardwick every day of the week and twice on Sunday for example but with injury and form, Hardwick gets the nod for example

I had Ridley in once I edited but he replaced KPP Scrimshaw who went to the bench and pushed out Redman. Hardwick is a premier lockdown small, one of the games best. Quite underrated.

 

[Ambrosia]

Purely my opinion.

I think the ceiling is far higher for our young midfield.

I think you’ve got us pipped for key positions, but we have talent coming through and arguably will collect even more next few drafts with our unfortunately high draft position.

I think Brad Scott is a terrific coach who will have you there abouts, but similar to his time at North - you won’t win a flag unless some elite players emerge/can be recruited which I can’t currently see happening.

Is the Day, Newcombe, Magginness, Ward, Mckenzie, D'Ambrosio and Watson even ahead of Martin, Durham, Caldwell, Perkins, Hobbs, Duursma and Tsatas currently?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Is the Day, Newcombe, Magginness, Ward, Mckenzie, D'Ambrosio and Watson even ahead of Martin, Durham, Caldwell, Perkins, Hobbs, Duursma and Tsatas currently?

Yes. Martin is at HB.

Durham is good, Caldwell I have been a fan of but is nearing his prime already, yet to produce high quality.

Hobbs looks like a pretty good inside mid, Duursma a hard working winger and Tsatas looks talented but yet to put it together and I’m unsold on his ball use especially with his ball drop.

Day and Newcombe are better than any midfield option listed and Ward, MacKenzie are there abouts on par. Hustwaite is also there and then you have Nash and Worpel at 24/25.

 

[Ambrosia]

Yes. Martin is at HB.

Durham is good, Caldwell I have been a fan of but is nearing his prime already, yet to produce high quality.

Hobbs looks like a pretty good inside mid, Duursma a hard working winger and Tsatas looks talented but yet to put it together and I’m unsold on his ball use especially with his ball drop.

Day and Newcombe are better than any midfield option listed and Ward, MacKenzie are there abouts on par. Hustwaite is also there and then you have Nash and Worpel at 24/25.

Martin is a mid playing back like Sinclair or Daicos. Martin and Durham comparable to Day and Newcombe especially when you consider the bar is Hawthorn being far better

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Martin is a mid playing back like Sinclair or Daicos. Martin and Durham comparable to Day and Newcombe especially when you consider the bar is Hawthorn being far better

Martin has never played as a midfielder, wing, half forward and half back. But I’ve never seen him do long stints inside. Isn’t his game, may do but nothing to suggest otherwise right now.

Martin is not comparable as he hasn’t played as a mid and Day and Newcombe are comfortably better than Durham, and the rest.

 

[HairyO]

You are as much chance of losing this week as we are, then we’ll win our next 2 and you’ll lose your next 2, that gap will continue to grow.

Over to you, Essendon.

 

[Ambrosia]

Martin is not comparable as he hasn’t played as a mid and Day and Newcombe are comfortably better than Durham, and the rest.

Wing is mid and it’s time to adjust your priors on Durham been a top 5 player at Essendon this year

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Essendon so far clearly are the biggest surprise packet/improvers of season 2024.

Having said that, they are (roughly) at around 2.5 years ahead of the young Hawks in terms of their list rebuild and age demographic (of their list)

I admit I was probably wrong about Sam Mitchell and his coaching vision and optimism for Hawthorn and their immediate/short term future.

Taking the biased and bitter club rivalry agenda (speaking as a Carlton supporter) there is plenty to like about both club's so far this season. Both have improved and shown progress, but in clearly different time lines on their clock (so to speak)