Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

[Pessimistic]

Pretty simple when you look at it that way, isn't it?

Makes it difficult to then understand why they're only rated #3 by the neutral voters, behind Brisbane and Geelong...

Again in the voting, brisbane with such an overwhelming lead sort of renders the other voting redundant

And it’s totally at odds with you and your ‘friends’ assertions it should be geelong way out in front

 

[captain blood 17]

Again in the voting, brisbane with such an overwhelming lead sort of renders the other voting redundant

And it’s totally at odds with you and your ‘friends’ assertions it should be geelong way out in front

Anyone who can't acknowledge the hawks greatness of the last 40 years knows nothing about footy.

 

[Pessimistic]

Anyone who can't acknowledge the hawks greatness of the last 40 years knows nothing about footy.

Indeed but with a 15yr at least period where they were last or second last in terms of achievement, makes it all more remarkable

 

[PJays]

Because they didn't win a flag throughout any of those years...

Neither did Hawthorn from 2009-2012.

So the question is: what stops a dynasty? How many years without winning a single finals game? How many years without a flag?

For mine, I've explained at length why I've focused throughout this thread on the concept of teams and consistent line ups. My approach keeps it simple with easier criteria and reduces the need for methodological debates within my own framework.

 

[Fadge]

Anyone who can't acknowledge the hawks greatness of the last 40 years knows nothing about footy.

I don't recall anyone in this thread saying the Hawks haven't been great over the last 40 years.

But I for one have commented that 'the last 40 years' is not what is being discussed in this thread, and therefore should not be used as counter arguments in the context of the thread topic...

 

[captain blood 17]

Neither did Hawthorn from 2009-2012.

So the question is: what stops a dynasty? How many years without winning a single finals game? How many years without a flag?

For mine, I've explained at length why I've focused throughout this thread on the concept of teams and consistent line ups. My approach keeps it simple with easier criteria and reduces the need for methodological debates within my own framework.

I love this. Here it is in action -

 

[PJays]

I don't think that's an unreasonable argument but really all it does is expose this entire thread as fluff. What counts is flags and Hawthorn won four and the others three apiece.

If we're comparing Geelong 2004-2020 with Hawthorn 2007-2016 then:

• Hawthorn has one more flag
• Same number of Grand Finals
• Geelong played loads more preliminary finals
• Geelong won loads more finals games

And the other factor, longevity- so difficult to achieve in the AFL context:

• Geelong has much, much better longevity, being a fairly consistent contender for 17 years

Also we're talking a relative difference of 4 to 3. If Hawthorn had 2 flags and Geelong had 1 that's double. 4 to 3 is still a significant advantage but for mine, Geelong's incredible longevity combined with all the extra prelims and finals wins puts them on top. Along with their 11 match winning streak over Hawthorn during the crossover period.

Again, I've spent this entire thread focusing on the concept of teams, but if we use a longer term definition (like Fadge has) then I still put Geelong ahead.

 

[calman]

Except that Brisbane and Richmond played weaker Grand Final opponents and didn't win as convincingly.

um, they they beat essendon in 2001 grand final
Essendon had just won the 2000 GF the season before, after having one of the most dominant home and away seasons on record in 2000
They probably count as a decent opponent

2002 , was a cold, wet , windy day, not ideal conditions
2003 against same opponent, Brisbane belted collingwood

richmond can only beat the opponent, that shows up, but they have done it consistently the last 4 years
2017 AFL Grand Final 8 goals
2019 AFL Grand Final 14 goals
2020 AFL Grand Final 5 goals ( given they were 21 points down late in 2nd quarter)

are all pretty convincing wins for grand finals

 

[Pessimistic]

If we're comparing Geelong 2004-2020 with Hawthorn 2007-2016 then:

• Hawthorn has one more flag
• Same number of Grand Finals
• Geelong played loads more preliminary finals
• Geelong won loads more finals games

And the other factor, longevity- so difficult to achieve in the AFL context:

• Geelong has much, much better longevity, being a fairly consistent contender for 17 years

Also we're talking a relative difference of 4 to 3. If Hawthorn had 2 flags and Geelong had 1 that's double. 4 to 3 is still a significant advantage but for mine, Geelong's incredible longevity combined with all the extra prelims and finals wins puts them on top. Along with their 11 match winning streak over Hawthorn during the crossover period.

Again, I've spent this entire thread focusing on the concept of teams, but if we use a longer term definition (like Fadge has) then I still put Geelong ahead.

Like I said the hawks 76-91 then comes into the picture, although they didn’t threepeat.

 

[PJays]

Like I said the hawks 76-91 then comes into the picture, although they didn’t threepeat.

1976-1991 is not in the 21st century.

 

[Pessimistic]

1976-1991 is not in the 21st century.

NSS

Which team is on top in the 21st century? Would a poll return Brisbane so emphatically?

 

[Roby]

Because the information is relevant. Cherry picking a couple of years here of there and trying to label some of Hawthorns years as mediocre when they have dominated the comp in the last 40 years is laughable. Their last flag was 5 years ago. Geelongs was 2011. Yes, it's admirable Geelongs performances since 2006. Seriously, it's a great club achievement, but for actual success, Hawks have done it longer and better than anyone. They have the cups to back it up.
And i find you arguing relevance after all your Collingwood guff pretty funny.

Look on the emotes how much these comments affect them, it's like you've told them some horrific news.

 

[Trahanas22]

If we're comparing Geelong 2004-2020 with Hawthorn 2007-2016 then:

• Hawthorn has one more flag
• Same number of Grand Finals
• Geelong played loads more preliminary finals
• Geelong won loads more finals games

And the other factor, longevity- so difficult to achieve in the AFL context:

• Geelong has much, much better longevity, being a fairly consistent contender for 17 years

Also we're talking a relative difference of 4 to 3. If Hawthorn had 2 flags and Geelong had 1 that's double. 4 to 3 is still a significant advantage but for mine, Geelong's incredible longevity combined with all the extra prelims and finals wins puts them on top. Along with their 11 match winning streak over Hawthorn during the crossover period.

Again, I've spent this entire thread focusing on the concept of teams, but if we use a longer term definition (like Fadge has) then I still put Geelong ahead.

First bullet point in your quoted post above. This is where an objective, no-agenda running poster stops his analysis. So, four is only relatively greater than three-open to interpretation-and when it comes to Geelong, 3>4? Which school taught you your math, four is always greater than three, it is an absolute fact, not relative. Unless you are a Collingwood or a St Kilda supporter, starved of multiple or even single premierships for decades, needing an escape from the harsh-in footy terms-reality.

Sure, after we establish that two or more teams have achieved the same in terms of real, absolute, undisputed success (flags), in the time framework set by the OP (21st century), then we can start looking at metrics of relative “success”, which are totally subjective, open to interpretation and influenced by the footy allegiances and biases of the posters. But you cannot do this here. Your Geelong darlings-Richmond and Brisbane as well- display a deficit of real success, 4>3. Always. No ifs, not buts, no coconuts. For ever and ever.

I suppose, for a person who thinks 0>3, 3>4 is a vast improvement when it comes to their keeping contact with reality ability. Good first step, keep trying, you will know that you are about to enter real reality when 3=4. One more step after that and you will have left Alice in wonderland for sure. If you want to. It is better for you to stay in there, isn’t it? In there, the 2009-10 St Kilda team are a greater “dynasty” than Richmond in 2017-20. Out in the real world, I am not so sure...

A million preliminaries and a billion finals are not worth as much as a single premiership. Since you are such a relativist, I assume you are familiar with Einstein’s theory of general-like yours-relativity. In Einstein’s equation, the constant is the speed of light. In the footy universe this constant is premierships. Premierships are the only reason for clubs to exist, to provide happiness, fulfillment and, why not, bragging rights to their supporters.

Premierships are the steak, the rest are side-dishes, chips, salad, whatever. You and the Collingwood guy are trying to persuade us that chips and salad are more important than the steak, that you are well fed only with the side dishes.

Constants are very important in universes. Without them, chaos and mayhem ensue. Look at this thread, most newcomers who try to read the posts here don’t have a clue about what is going on, what the whole argument is about. This is because this thread’s universe, your Alice in wonderland world, has lost its constant. Premierships...

 

[PJays]

First bullet point in your quoted post above. This is where an objective, no-agenda running poster stops his analysis. So, four is only relatively greater than three-open to interpretation-and when it comes to Geelong, 3>4? Which school taught you your math,

Analysis of what?

Analysis of "Who is the greatest dynasty" depends on actually having a definition of dynasty. Or some criteria. Or some framework.

You haven't given us any. You haven't even given the slightest indication you've even thought about it. For someone pouring out as many words as you are in your last 2 posts, that's beyond sloppy.

four is always greater than three, it is an absolute fact, not relative.

A million preliminaries and a billion finals are not worth as much as a single premiership.

Imagine the next 15 years

Team A
4 flags
1 Semi final exit
1 9th place finish
2 times finished 14th-15th
7 wooden spoons

Team B
3 flags
4 runner ups
5 prelim finals exits
2 semi final exits
Once finished 9th

Indulge me.

Which club had a more successful 15 years?

Which club was "greater" over the 15 year period?

Which club would you rather be a supporter of, over the 15 year period?

then we can start looking at metrics of relative “success”, which are totally subjective, open to interpretation and influenced by the footy allegiances and biases of the posters.

Yeah wins and percentage are totally subjective.

So when I say for example that 105-20 is a better record than 71-23-1 or 88-36-1 or 99-27, I'm being subjective.

Besides, who said subjective arguments are worthless. If you don't like subjective arguments then why did you just waste time writing a post trying to convince me of something subjective, ie: "A billion finals aren't worth a single premiership".

If you don't like subjective discussions why the heck did you sign up for Big Footy!?

 

[Lip Gallagher]

View attachment 1044099

Well lets crunch the numbers shall we?

GF in 2002/3, 1 kick off another in 2007 in a loss to the Cats who went on to win the GF by panels.

Flag in 2010 followed by another GF in 2011, lost the prelim in 2012.

GF in 2018 and lost a prelim by less than a kick in 2019.

Not sure what you're laughing at mate, i did say flags aside.

 

[HTT]

If we're comparing Geelong 2004-2020 with Hawthorn 2007-2016 then:

• Hawthorn has one more flag
• Same number of Grand Finals
• Geelong played loads more preliminary finals
• Geelong won loads more finals games

And the other factor, longevity- so difficult to achieve in the AFL context:

• Geelong has much, much better longevity, being a fairly consistent contender for 17 years

Also we're talking a relative difference of 4 to 3. If Hawthorn had 2 flags and Geelong had 1 that's double. 4 to 3 is still a significant advantage but for mine, Geelong's incredible longevity combined with all the extra prelims and finals wins puts them on top. Along with their 11 match winning streak over Hawthorn during the crossover period.

Again, I've spent this entire thread focusing on the concept of teams, but if we use a longer term definition like Fadge has then I still put Geelong ahead.

Across 17 completed seasons 2004-2020 Geelong won 20 finals (1.17/year), while Hawthorn won 16 across 10 completed seasons 2007-2016 (1.6/year).
But, I hear you, it is tougher to keep that figure high over a longer period. So lets go like for like

Hawthorn 2000-2016 vs Geelong 2004-2020 season finishes
Win GF: 4-3
Lose GF: 1-2
Lose PF: 2-6
Lose SF: 3-2
Lose EF: 1-2
Miss finals: 6-2
So the cats have been more consistent. Geelong make prelims where Hawthorn miss finals and vice versa. But Hawthorn have the extra flag (and have flipped a semi/EF). Personally I think we play for flags over prelims and if I was managing a club I'd take 4 extra years missing finals for an extra flag if that was what it meant. But Geelong have been better on average so I'm willing to call it evens.

What about a 10 year period like Hawthorn's?
Hawthorn 2007-2016 vs Geelong 2007-2016 (might be able to pick a better period, not sure)
Win GF: 4-3
Lose GF: 1-1
Lose PF: 1-3
Lose SF: 2-1
Lose EF: 1-1
Miss finals: 1-1
Geelong's two extra prelim losses have been turned into a GF win and an SF loss for Hawthorn. Hawthorn's 10 years every day of the week for me.

 

[PJays]

Across 17 completed seasons 2004-2020 Geelong won 20 finals (1.17/year), while Hawthorn won 16 across 10 completed seasons 2007-2016 (1.6/year).
But, I hear you, it is tougher to keep that figure high over a longer period. So lets go like for like

Hawthorn 2000-2016 vs Geelong 2004-2020 season finishes
Win GF: 4-3
Lose GF: 1-2
Lose PF: 2-6
Lose SF: 3-2
Lose EF: 1-2
Miss finals: 6-2
So the cats have been more consistent. Geelong make prelims where Hawthorn miss finals and vice versa. But Hawthorn have the extra flag (and have flipped a semi/EF). Personally I think we play for flags over prelims and if I was managing a club I'd take 4 extra years missing finals for an extra flag if that was what it meant. But Geelong have been better on average so I'm willing to call it evens.

What about a 10 year period like Hawthorn's?
Hawthorn 2007-2016 vs Geelong 2007-2016 (might be able to pick a better period, not sure)
Win GF: 4-3
Lose GF: 1-1
Lose PF: 1-3
Lose SF: 2-1
Lose EF: 1-1
Miss finals: 1-1
Geelong's two extra prelim losses have been turned into a GF win and an SF loss for Hawthorn. Hawthorn's 10 years every day of the week for me.

Apart from the pure analysis of results which you've done well, there's Geelong essentially contending for 17 years straight. That in itself is a huge achievement, going beyond the individual season results tallies.

The AFL tries to ensure every team gets a crack. And they all have. All the current teams have played a Grand Final within the past 22 seasons except Gold Coast who've been around for 10. In an 18 team professional sporting comp, that's incredible equality.

Within that context to continually contend for this long is amazing. And yes they had good father/sons. But other clubs had priority picks, COLA, merger transferees, brown paper bags, or first choice from an entire footballing state. And no one else remained up for this long.

My first footy memory is watching the 1992 Grand Final. Interestingly, Geelong and West Coast have turned out as the two consistent contenders since then. Neither has remained down for long (Geelong mostly struggled 98-03 and West Coast 08-10 but overall they've kept coming back).

During my footy watching lifetime, Hawthorn has same flags as West Coast and one more than Geelong. But they were average or bad for large chunks of the 90s and 00s, and haven't won a final since 2015. They won 4 in a relatively short window but otherwise unremarkable.

But Geelong and West Coast are the most consistently successful clubs in my footy lifetime, decade after decade. So I'd rate them the most impressive clubs. Putting themselves into the finals and in a position to win a flag, time and time again with different generations of players.

So with that background I'd say:

1 year: Essendon 2000 (or Geelong 2011 if restricted to seasons from this thread).

3 years: Brisbane 2001-2003.

5 years: Geelong 2007-2011.

10 years: Hawthorn 2007-2016.

Then once you get to about 15 years the pendulum swings back to Geelong I reckon, for reasons outlined above- the value of longevity and consistent performance in a highly equalised environment.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

Apart from the pure analysis of results which you've done well, there's Geelong essentially contending for 17 years straight. That in itself is a huge achievement, going beyond the individual season results tallies.

The AFL tries to ensure every team gets a crack. And they all have. All the current teams have played a Grand Final within the past 22 seasons except Gold Coast who've been around for 10. In an 18 team professional sporting comp, that's incredible equality.

Within that context to continually contend for this long is amazing. And yes they had good father/sons. But other clubs had priority picks, COLA, merger transferees, brown paper bags, or first choice from an entire footballing state. And no one else remained up for this long.

My first footy memory is watching the 1992 Grand Final. Interestingly, Geelong and West Coast have turned out as the two consistent contenders since then. Neither has remained down for long (Geelong mostly struggled 98-03 and West Coast 08-10 but overall they've kept coming back).

During my footy watching lifetime, Hawthorn has same flags as West Coast and one more than Geelong. But they were average or bad for large chunks of the 90s and 00s, and haven't won a final since 2015. They won 4 in a relatively short window but otherwise unremarkable.

But Geelong and West Coast are the most consistently successful clubs in my footy lifetime, decade after decade. So I'd rate them the most impressive clubs. Putting themselves into the finals and in a position to win a flag, time and time again with different generations of players.

So with that background I'd say:

1 year: Essendon 2000 (or Geelong 2011 if restricted to seasons from this thread).

3 years: Brisbane 2001-2003.

5 years: Geelong 2007-2011.

10 years: Hawthorn 2007-2016.

Then once you get to about 15 years the pendulum swings back to Geelong I reckon, for reasons outlined above- the value of longevity and consistent performance in a highly equalised environment.

So, where do you rate Richmond? Just for posterity's stake.

 

[Lip Gallagher]

Anyone who can't acknowledge the hawks greatness of the last 40 years knows nothing about footy.

Anyone who thinks that avatar is cool is a complete muppet, what the * is wrong with you mate?

 

[Fadge]

So, where do you rate Richmond? Just for posterity's stake.

I'd predict 9th.

 

[Fadge]

So with that background I'd say:

1 year: Essendon 2000 (or Geelong 2011 if restricted to seasons from this thread).

3 years: Brisbane 2001-2003.

5 years: Geelong 2007-2011.

10 years: Hawthorn 2007-2016.

Then once you get to about 15 years the pendulum swings back to Geelong I reckon, for reasons outlined above- the value of longevity and consistent performance in a highly equalised environment.

Yep, spot on.

This aligns perfectly with my analysis from two months and 120 odd pages ago.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

I'd predict 9th.

 

[captain blood 17]

First bullet point in your quoted post above. This is where an objective, no-agenda running poster stops his analysis. So, four is only relatively greater than three-open to interpretation-and when it comes to Geelong, 3>4? Which school taught you your math, four is always greater than three, it is an absolute fact, not relative. Unless you are a Collingwood or a St Kilda supporter, starved of multiple or even single premierships for decades, needing an escape from the harsh-in footy terms-reality.

Sure, after we establish that two or more teams have achieved the same in terms of real, absolute, undisputed success (flags), in the time framework set by the OP (21st century), then we can start looking at metrics of relative “success”, which are totally subjective, open to interpretation and influenced by the footy allegiances and biases of the posters. But you cannot do this here. Your Geelong darlings-Richmond and Brisbane as well- display a deficit of real success, 4>3. Always. No ifs, not buts, no coconuts. For ever and ever.

I suppose, for a person who thinks 0>3, 3>4 is a vast improvement when it comes to their keeping contact with reality ability. Good first step, keep trying, you will know that you are about to enter real reality when 3=4. One more step after that and you will have left Alice in wonderland for sure. If you want to. It is better for you to stay in there, isn’t it? In there, the 2009-10 St Kilda team are a greater “dynasty” than Richmond in 2017-20. Out in the real world, I am not so sure...

A million preliminaries and a billion finals are not worth as much as a single premiership. Since you are such a relativist, I assume you are familiar with Einstein’s theory of general-like yours-relativity. In Einstein’s equation, the constant is the speed of light. In the footy universe this constant is premierships. Premierships are the only reason for clubs to exist, to provide happiness, fulfillment and, why not, bragging rights to their supporters.

Premierships are the steak, the rest are side-dishes, chips, salad, whatever. You and the Collingwood guy are trying to persuade us that chips and salad are more important than the steak, that you are well fed only with the side dishes.

Constants are very important in universes. Without them, chaos and mayhem ensue. Look at this thread, most newcomers who try to read the posts here don’t have a clue about what is going on, what the whole argument is about. This is because this thread’s universe, your Alice in wonderland world, has lost its constant. Premierships...

Please sir, i would like to subscribe to your newsletter or blog. FACTS.

 

[Pessimistic]

It’s quite simple, in the years running up to the three premierships/four grand finals

Geelong players were nightly rated by media, but they self confessed were out on the piss/ took the piss played and won a couple of finals
Brisbane players clocked up a wooden spoon (new coach matthews once threatened to breathylise them) also played 3 finals series win 1 final
Richmond - well not the players but the board fought off an attempted coup. Played 3 finals series lost 3 finals

Hawthorn players clocked up an underdog premiership (and admittedly went on the piss too afterwards) as well as a premiership, 2 finals series including a prelim and a 9th finish

That is the context in dynasty terms

 

[captain blood 17]

Well lets crunch the numbers shall we?

GF in 2002/3, 1 kick off another in 2007 in a loss to the Cats who went on to win the GF by panels.

Flag in 2010 followed by another GF in 2011, lost the prelim in 2012.

GF in 2018 and lost a prelim by less than a kick in 2019.

Not sure what you're laughing at mate, i did say flags aside.

The thread is clearly about premiership success. I’m not even arguing about who is better out of the nominated teams as all are remarkable for the achievements. Results talk, bullshit walks. Collingwood are on the edge of imploding. For all the big club talk, WCE, Hawthorn, Richmond are all currently bigger than the pies. Just wait and see what happens if Carlton and Essendon can get their acts together. It is quite possible at seasons end Buckley is gone and Eddie is already walking.
I’m laughing because we have Collingwood people trying to put themselves in the conversation when they aren’t. And the funny thing is now when people used to chop up the argument on whether VFL flags still count or should it be AFL flags only, once Richmond caught up on AFL flags, the argument changed again and now we have minnow clubs trying to get old other comp flags included in their tallies.
So, AFL flags - Hawthorn 7, WCE 4, Brisbane 3, Geelong 3, Richmond 3. Pies are the next tier down on two with the likes of Sydney, Adelaide and North.
Here no Collingwood. No Collingwood here.