AFL and club presidents living in La La Land.

[catstorm]

It’s going to be hard for GWS to get big crowds as Sydney folk generally don’t turn up in big numbers to any sport. I do think they would be better suited in Canberra and tapping into the region. My parents and my brothers all live in the Southern NSW region and are all go to games in Canberra and in their communities there seems some decent supports for GWS.
As for the Gold Coast, no sporting team has ever done well up there but I think the Suns can go against the grain and attract a half decent crowd most weeks

The problem with the Gold Coast teams are that they always just suck, and I mean at all levels.

On field success is marginal but even the front office of all teams is a ******* joke.

You need success to build a supporter base and get kids excited to go to games. Then they grow up going to matches and then take there own kids, that’s how you build that inter-generation support.

Until Gold Coast gets a run of sustained success the supporter base will not grow much.

 

[Tas]

It’s going to be hard for GWS to get big crowds as Sydney folk generally don’t turn up in big numbers to any sport. I do think they would be better suited in Canberra and tapping into the region. My parents and my brothers all live in the Southern NSW region and are all go to games in Canberra and in their communities there seems some decent supports for GWS.
As for the Gold Coast, no sporting team has ever done well up there but I think the Suns can go against the grain and attract a half decent crowd most weeks

Going to be even harder when they play half their home games in Canberra.

 

[Tas]

The problem with the Gold Coast teams are that they always just suck, and I mean at all levels.

On field success is marginal but even the front office of all teams is a ******* joke.

You need success to build a supporter base and get kids excited to go to games. Then they grow up going to matches and then take there own kids, that’s how you build that inter-generation support.

Until Gold Coast gets a run of sustained success the supporter base will not grow much.

They always get the wrong coaches for these expansion clubs, you need someone like a Lyon who is going to set up the entire football department and play a defensive brand of footy, that doesn't mean you don't attack, but you defend well. You also need seasoned strong bodied mids and spine. I think you could have given him 2 years before entering the comp with access to any VFL/SANFL/WAFL and other amateur leagues and he would probably have put a more competitive team on the park.

I wasn't sure we would get Clarkson and Lyon was my second choice to fix the problems we had, which I felt were easy to fix, you just needed someone that wasn't a moron at the reigns. It is this soft, unaccountable, inconsistent footy that kills the hearts of fans or potential fans, i think having a crack week in and week out is all anyone really asks.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I think they both need a rebrand.

GWS a softer rebrand, focusing on one region (West Sydney) - the Giants name seems to have stuck for now but a more traditional footy jumper redesign would be good.

The Suns need to redesign their jumper, it is horrible and I can't believe it's still being used after 10 years. Their logo is crap too and the Suns name feels like it came out of some marketing focus group. Rebrand to the Sharks like they should've been when they were founded (yeah I get the Southport issue but at least it's a strong club to build support off) and get a bit of mongrel into the side. That's one thing the Giants haven't lacked but GC still have that soft underbelly.

Agree with the other comments above about getting the right footy people to build a strong club not just team. They've both had ample resources to build a competitive side, the Giants almost got there and now are rebuilding the Suns should be playing finals this year (or at least on the fringes like Carlton last year) but looks like they'll flub it again. They have the core of a strong side but 0-2 already isn't looking good. They would want to win this Sunday or the season will be a wash by April again and that is not a great way to build support.

Overall I disagree with the OP though, the AFL is right to back them in for the long haul - it may end up being a sunk cost fallacy but I don't think it will be, they don't need to dominate the landscape in their respective cities just to be able to build a big enough support base to be self sustainable. I have faith that Australian football is the best code on the planet (only rivalled by American football) and the inherent greatness of the game will win out over time. But it will be decades not years as it starts with the kids and then their kids when they grow up and have families of their own.

 

[thetank]

The GWS experiment is worth persisting with. Will take a generation, but the sheer numbers will eventually make it worthwhile. If the population is 3 million, a membership penetration rate of 2% is 60,000 members. And this is the area which will have the largest population growth in NSW.

Also, having 2 teams in NSW increases the media coverage in NSW, which also has value for the Swans.

The changes can be seen. 15 years ago, there were no AFL goals out west. There's a lot more now.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

If you are told to support it you will, just look at the footy states. They have changed so many rules and no one said a word. They actually convinced the footy public that head high contact is the guy with the balls fault. Wow just wow! But that’s what has happened.
So yes if the AFL say they will get fans to GWS and Gold Coast I believe them, the sheep will follow as told to.

 

[PrinceCharles]

I believe in time, Gold Coast will cement itself up there.

But GWS? Will never happen UNTIL they solidify somewhere or another.

Canberra? Sydney? IDK, IDC. But with 1 foot in each location, how can the fan base grow if they don't know if they'll be there in 20 years.

Solidify in Sydney, Canberra20.

Done.

I believe in time, too.

 

[Great8]

Going to be even harder when they play half their home games in Canberra.

I’d move them to Canberra completely and market them as the team for ACT and Southern NSW.

 

[jim boy]

Gold Coast, the city, is the stoner cousin of Australian cities. No sporting team will ever really survive there

 

[Kram]

They need cooler uniforms.

They should play in pure organic cotton.

 

[shintemaster]

Decent crowd by AFL standards, NRL does not get that, so why should AFL in NSW or Qld. The real issue is if the extra TV cash from having GWS & Gold Coast covers the cost of the teams.

Maybe GC and GWS should start NRL teams then. Last I checked this is the AFL - it is irrelevant what NRL crowds are because economics of AFL aren't based around the NRL.

As far as the bold, I don't think this is even a question. It doesn't, there is some vague hope that at some point it will.

 

[Football Tragic]

I never think that GWS or Gold Coast will become financial powerhouses of the competition but they will become strong clubs in time. At one time clubs such as Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne were expansion clubs - started up in growth areas but in areas where there was already support for other teams and codes. All of these teams have survived and grown (some more than others). They've had their problems but they are important components to the overall competition, just like GWS and GCS are now.

Sydney and Brisbane are probably the best comparison. They took a generation to become viable and are now strong, relevant, clubs not just for the AFL but for their cities in general. GWS and GCS will evolve into this as well. The AFL are masters at sparking excitement and loyalty through their AusKick programs. They are the McDonald's of Australian sport. They bring in the kids and their parents follow. It worked for every new team they introduced and they will continue to pour in the money in this way until GWS and GCS are successes.

It'll just take time but the potential rewards are well worth it.

 

[Engimal v3]

At one time clubs such as Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne were expansion clubs - started up in growth areas but in areas where there was already support for other teams and codes. All of these teams have survived and grown (some more than others). They've had their problems but they are important components to the overall competition, just like GWS and GCS are now.

Not really the same. North, Bulldogs and Hawthorn are older than some of the original VFL clubs.

 

[Football Tragic]

Not really the same. North, Bulldogs and Hawthorn are older than some of the original VFL clubs.

No doubt, but they were introduced to the VFL (like Richmond) later than the original (breakaway) clubs. As the VFL grew, it gave the original clubs more time to establish supporters and backing. But I take your point - Sydney and Brisbane are better and more recent examples

 

[Golumless]

There is not much if anything to gain in Tassie. Unless the NRL made a move the AFL don't need to do anything.

There is, but it's to shore up a market. Especially as it's a sport starved place. It should be in the next wave of expansion. Potentially paired with a third WA team.

Still, it shouldn't be at the expense at either Gold Coast or GWS. Long term, the goal should be the AFL becoming the dominant sport in all Australian markets, and that means chewing fat in the NSW/QLD ones. Whilst TV rights go up...

 

[Football Tragic]

There is, but it's to shore up a market. Especially as it's a sport starved place. It should be in the next wave of expansion. Potentially paired with a third WA team.

Still, it shouldn't be at the expense at either Gold Coast or GWS. Long term, the goal should be the AFL becoming the dominant sport in all Australian markets, and that means chewing fat in the NSW/QLD ones. Whilst TV rights go up...

It's already the most dominant sport in Australia. The NRL is slowly dieing beast, thrashing around, trying to cling to life while most people ignore it. Only its tv ratings give it any relevance at all. In every other measure, it is a minnow and the gap between the two codes is increasing every year.

GWS and GCS are already successful because they are drawing in an untapped supporter base and audience. The NRL placing a team in their heartland does nothing to grow the sport overall. Its the same reason why the AFL has taken so long in giving Tasmania a team. It helps maintain code loyalty but does little else.

GWS and GCS will take time but the rewards of even a small amount of exposure and success is worth all the heartache in the long run.

 

[Dirty Bird]

The NRL have finally moved to a second Brisbane team but SEQ, Northern NSW and the Gold Coast has a big expat Victorian community and junior footy numbers are strong. Especially in women's footy.

If they can survive the Gold Coast curse I really do feel the Suns can build something sustainable. It doesn't take a huge leap to get from the 14k GC got in round one to over 20k and it should be consistent once it builds assuming the side has a stable run of at least not being terrible.

GWS crowds are going to be a battle for decades. Sydney sporting crowds just aren't good. And the team struggles to have an identity.

GWS is fun to say and they're orange, but that's not really a strong identity. They aren't true Western Sydney. They play a lot in CBR and get their season disrupted by the Easter Show. Homebush isn't impossible to get to but it's not a place that people really identify with. Greater Western means that anyone west of the Sydney CBD including the rest of NSW isn't excluded but it doesn't really include anyone either. The AFL did it so they can lay claim to millions of people as potential fans but the cost is you don't grab anyone especially.

Obviously they would've got more anger than they already got but I think they would've been better off trying to divide the Swans base and then boost up both teams together by targeting a slice of the Swans existing AFL demographics in Sydney. Ie. a team in the North Shore, Inner West or even be really brave and just have a second SCG team.

The problem was stadium.

4 options

1) Blacktown (they do some pre-season games there) - Worse location than Homebush
2) Olympic Stadium - Too big
3) Build a fresh - Too expensive
4) Showgrounds - Best option of the lot.

If the AFL really wanted to pump in the money, Parramatta would've been ideal. But not even the AFL has a bottomless pile of cash. So the Showgrounds was/is the best option.

And trust me, someone who used to live at Penrith (Glenmore Park) - The cities so bloody big, it'd be a nightmare getting all the way to the SCG. So bringing games to a more accessible point is good. If I were in Sydney, I'd be a whole lot more likely to go to Giants games than Swans games.

 

[bzparkes]

SE Qld is widely regarded as the world capital of Rugby League - if they can’t make the Titans financially viable, how would you expect the Suns to work?

… If we’re going to subsidise a side, it should be in Tasmania

Tasmania doesn't have much room for growth, nor do people there have the disposal incomes like people do on the Gold Coast.

For all this harping on about how Tassie should have an AFL team, they can't even support a state wide league properly.

It's just pure romanticism for people to want one there.

Don't get me wrong, as someone who actually grew up in Tasmania, it'd be great to see them with their own team.

Can't ever see them being as potentially financially viable long-term as GC/GWS though.

 

[Dirty Bird]

The GWS experiment is worth persisting with. Will take a generation, but the sheer numbers will eventually make it worthwhile. If the population is 3 million, a membership penetration rate of 2% is 60,000 members. And this is the area which will have the largest population growth in NSW.

Also, having 2 teams in NSW increases the media coverage in NSW, which also has value for the Swans.

The changes can be seen. 15 years ago, there were no AFL goals out west. There's a lot more now.

Im just looking at the western sydney page on the sydney afl juniors website

I would say over 15 years

Western juniors - 17 clubs (12 of which existed when I was there)
Northern juniors 12 clubs (10 of which existed when I was there)
Southern juniors - 6 clubs (All of which I believe are new in the last 15 years)
Inner City Juniors - 9 clubs (6 of which existed when I was there)

So since I left Sydney in 2008, they've gone from 28 clubs to 44.

But I do guess the actual clubs have grown substantially, I played with North Ryde. And at the time we fielded u10s, u12s, u14s and u16s. So 4 teams. Last year they fielded u9s, 10s, 11s, 12s, 15s plus u16s girls and had 'mergers' at the u13s, 14s and 17s level

So do go from 4 grades (every 2nd year) to 5 grades, plus 3 'mergers' and a girls team. Club has actually doubled in size.

I wonder how large some clubs are now. I remember clubs like Baulkham Hills basically had 2 teams in every division, Westbrook, Penrith, Hawkesbury, St Ives etc. it was known to happen as well.

In fact, I believe after I left when I was looking at club numbers, clubs like St Ives were fielding 3 teams in some grades.

 

[Billy ray]

 

[catters05]

Still wonder if things would have changed a bit if Giants won that Grand final.

 

[magpielicious]

Not sure all the "but 3 million people will live there" means anything. There could be 20 million in sth east Qld and western Sydney that means jack s...t on getting people interested in AFL. If you still think its going to happen when they cant even get NRL stadiums filled consistently, please send me the lotto numbers cause i will have a greater chance winning money than GWS and GC succeeding. I 100% agree about GWS being rebranded to the Canberra Giants.

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