Analysis Coaching discussion 2017

[Gysberts2Bate]

Are we smashing them though? Flooding the contest with inside players mean we get the footy but the important thing is scoring which we aren't doing well enough and we are allowing others to do easily

Depends who has the ball. We do pretty well when it's Watts, Salem, or Stretch going forward. I think the game plan is good bu there's also a lot of natural improvement to come to this squad. Also the problem isn't just scoring but also being scored against, and as we improve you won't see players like Hawkins and Riewoldt dominate by way of kicking easy unaccountable goals against us

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Because you said he wasnt any good at not worth the pick

This just proves that you don't read properly. Here let me remind you:

Look, i may be wrong about Hibberd, but i think we should consider our options instead of jumping into a trade. I also think we have other pressing needs that need to be addressed prior to rebounding hbf, such as a ruck or key defender.

Can I be any clearer than that? We didn't even try, we committed to Hibberd way before the trade period even began.

None of those guys would have come to Melbourne to sit in the reserves

What's wrong with playing two rucks? How about we had a go at trying to trade for a player who could play the forward and supporting ruck role? We didn't and we couldn't because we already committed to Hibberd before the draft even began.

You accused me something and called me weak, I proved that you're talking through your arse.

 

[Topkent]

This just proves that you don't read properly. Here let me remind you:

Look, i may be wrong about Hibberd, but i think we should consider our options instead of jumping into a trade. I also think we have other pressing needs that need to be addressed prior to rebounding hbf, such as a ruck or key defender.

Can I be any clearer than that? We didn't even try, we committed to Hibberd way before the trade period even began.



What's wrong with playing two rucks? How about we had a go at trying to trade for a player who could play the forward and supporting ruck role? We didn't and we couldn't because we already committed to Hibberd before the draft even began.

You accused me something and called me weak, I proved that you're talking through your arse.

Mate that's one comment. We went back and forth over the Hibberd deal for weeks because you were so worked up about how bad the trade was and that Hibberd was no good. Like I said its weak to change your opinion now because he played a ripper first up

What's wrong with 2 rucks? Only WC does it an the only blokes available in the last 2 years would have been s**t

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Mate that's one comment. We went back and forth over the Hibberd deal for weeks because you were so worked up about how bad the trade was and that Hibberd was no good. Like I said its weak to change your opinion now because he played a ripper first up

What's wrong with 2 rucks? Only WC does it an the only blokes available in the last 2 years would have been s**t

OMFG, may stance on Hibberd hasn't changed at all and that post proves it. Even in that post last year I conceded that he may be ok but I still thought we had other urgent needs. Like I said, look in the mirror champ.

How many other clubs has their 2nd ruck as one of their key forward targets? Even when Gawn wasn't injured when he had a rest moving Watts onto the ball ruined our forward structure. We were always one hammie away from disaster but we didn't even try to fix the problem.

Put at least we have an elite rebounding HBF'er

 

[Demon 16]

Are we smashing them though? Flooding the contest with inside players mean we get the footy but the important thing is scoring which we aren't doing well enough and we are allowing others to do easily

Good post.

So we need to learn if it's an execution thing, or do we need to ticker with the plan.

I suspect it's a bit of both.

 

[djpaulydemon]

Our forward line has been a fair mess. It is very unsettled with Hogan out, Gawn injured, Watts having to ruck, small forwards (except Garlett) not applying enough pressure, Weid/ Smith in and out. Leading patterns are pretty random.

This leaves our mids waiting a long time and going wide to try and get a good inside 50, it doesn't materialise then they bomb it in. They spoil, we tackle and get a stoppage and without Gawn we aren't getting clean shots from the stoppage, so we kick a point. All our mids are pressing in their half and if they fail to spoil the kick in so our defenders are left 1 on 1 with huge amounts of space and pressure to deal with. The opposition marks because our lack of height, they kick easy coast to coast goals.

With a more settled, predictable forward line we would need to lock it in less and then we also had a get of jail card with being able to kick goals from stoppages. But we don't have either of those things right now so we need to readjust.

We know how to flood and play more defensive footy so we are going to have to revert to it. Concede we won't win any centre taps, man up, stay defensive side and keep a spare back, give Hogan and Jeffy space to run in the forward half and space for our mids to kick running goals. Tell the mids to defend first and attack when we force a turnover.

 

[CTHORANGE]

When it works it works though right I mean we've smashed every team we've played for at least three quarters right? There's just issues with fitness and lapses in concentration

Smashing them everywhere but the scoreboard and I'm concerned the reason is there's too often 30 players in our forward 60.

It must be incredibly taxing to play such a high pressing tactic as well having to sprint back 100-150 metres on a regular basis. Frost saved a couple of goals with his pace last night, imagine if he wasn't there and it was Omac in that position, we would've leaked even more easy goals out the back.

If we push too hard, as we are currently, we clog up our own forward line and expose our backs, I can't see this tactic working for an entire season. It could be an effective tactic for a quarter or for some games here and there, but not every week.

 

[mrmonkey]

I think the forward press is both poorly executed and a floored system. Though we blew our chances last night, Richmond also blew there opportunities to beat our press. If we were playing a better team there would of been a lot more of those rebound goals.

 

[Sellout Scully]

I'm struggling to think of a ruckman who is worse than Spencer and has been on a list for 9 years.

Ayce Cordy lasted 7.

Spencer is there as a cost effective back up. A decent quality ruckman isn't going to sit in the reserves for 8 years behind Jamar and now Gawn. And even if they did, why would you want to pay them more to do that? Any decent backups we could have had would have left within 2 years. Quality teams like Hawthorn had total junk ruckman backups, but they were ok if called upon because of the rest of the team.

Spot on

Um Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Adelaide, GWS all have average second rucks

And all are far superior to Spencer

'Um'

Stanley/Smith>Spencer
Ceglar=Spencer
Campbell>Spencer
O'Brien<Spencer
D Simpson<Spencer

Who is Adelaides 2nd ruck? Don't say Jenkins because they wouldn't knowingly go into a game with him as their number 1 choice.

Riley O'Brien. Correct, most crows fans don't rate Jenkins in the ruck.

I'm actually trying to remember. It's that kid they got from Hawthorn in the Cheney deal right? Lowden?

Lowden was delisted after never playing a game for the Crows

Which ruckman is worse than Spencer in the AFL? And I'm not talking about a developing kid, someone who has been in the system for more than 5 or 6 years.

See above. I also don't rate Nathan Vardy.

Who is Adelaides 2nd ruck?

What's your point? They are in the same position as us but they've been fortunate with no injuries, if Jacobs goes down they are in trouble. However I'd argue that Otten is a much better option as a backup ruck than Watts is to us. Their team is also at a much different stage of development than ours. Watts is a crucial part of our forwardline, when he gives Gawn/Spencer a break our forwardline is decimated for targets and talent, we heavily rely on Hogan. Adelaide has Walker, Lynch and Betts as their main focal points even when Otten goes onto the ball. Otten would be our 3rd highest goal tally if we had him.

Adelaide has a far better and balanced list than us

Otten is 6'4, Watts is 6'5. Ottens really isn't much of a ruck. He's had 12 hit outs for the year. That said I'd still like him as a free agent as I think if injury free he would provide value at either end

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

The loss to our attack without Watts is greater than the gains in our ruck playing him there ahead of Frost or Pedo IMO.

 

[The Dr]

Remember in Roos' first year as coach, when we were really, truly horrible, and he at least made us difficult to score against?

Where's that gone?

 

[booshboy]

Remember in Roos' first year as coach, when we were really, truly horrible, and he at least made us difficult to score against?

Where's that gone?

Out the door with him. Try the fox footy offices.

 

[PerfectFooty]

Remember in Roos' first year as coach, when we were really, truly horrible, and he at least made us difficult to score against?

Where's that gone?

Can't say i'm happy with it either. But i can see the difference. Man on Man, floods and holding possesion vs Zone defence, running and taking risks.

Does remind me of Carlton under Ratten in 2011. They where a good side, but they knew their defence could leak goals so their objective was to out score the opposition, as long as they kicked more they wheren't to concerned. Need a fine balance

 

[Topkent]

Can't say i'm happy with it either. But i can see the difference. Man on Man, floods and holding possesion vs Zone defence, running and taking risks.

Does remind me of Carlton under Ratten in 2011. They where a good side, but they knew their defence could leak goals so their objective was to out score the opposition, as long as they kicked more they wheren't to concerned. Need a fine balance

Reminds me of Carlton and EssenDon of the same eras, all attack no defence
You need defence to win finals. That's why we aren't progressing
Even Collingwoods press helped there defence while our press seems to hinder ours

 

[PerfectFooty]

Reminds me of Carlton and EssenDon of the same eras, all attack no defence
You need defence to win finals. That's why we aren't progressing
Even Collingwoods press helped there defence while our press seems to hinder ours

Exactly, and if you crank it to far the other direction you get Ross Lyon footy. While their main opponents during his time at the Saints, Geelong we're very well balanced. Loved to attack, but they where well set up behind the ball too

 

[Topkent]

Exactly, and if you crank it to far the other direction you get Ross Lyon footy. While their main opponents during his time at the Saints, Geelong we're very well balanced. Loved to attack, but they where well set up behind the ball too

Does help when you have Mackie Milburn Scarlett Lonergan Taylor Harley at various stages lol

We need to invest heavily into some quality defenders

 

[stretcharmstrong]

Our forward line has been a fair mess. It is very unsettled with Hogan out, Gawn injured, Watts having to ruck, small forwards (except Garlett) not applying enough pressure, Weid/ Smith in and out. Leading patterns are pretty random.

This leaves our mids waiting a long time and going wide to try and get a good inside 50, it doesn't materialise then they bomb it in. They spoil, we tackle and get a stoppage and without Gawn we aren't getting clean shots from the stoppage, so we kick a point. All our mids are pressing in their half and if they fail to spoil the kick in so our defenders are left 1 on 1 with huge amounts of space and pressure to deal with. The opposition marks because our lack of height, they kick easy coast to coast goals.

With a more settled, predictable forward line we would need to lock it in less and then we also had a get of jail card with being able to kick goals from stoppages. But we don't have either of those things right now so we need to readjust.

We know how to flood and play more defensive footy so we are going to have to revert to it. Concede we won't win any centre taps, man up, stay defensive side and keep a spare back, give Hogan and Jeffy space to run in the forward half and space for our mids to kick running goals. Tell the mids to defend first and attack when we force a turnover.

Spot on analysis, well said

 

[Cannon82]

Ayce Cordy lasted 7.

Excellent point, he was dreadful.

Stanley/Smith>Spencer
Ceglar=Spencer
Campbell>Spencer
O'Brien<Spencer
D Simpson<Spencer

Stanley is definitely a better all-round player, but it'd be generous to say he'd break even with Spencil in the ruck, I think. One of the great battles of modern footy we'll probably never see.

Lowden was delisted after never playing a game for the Crows

That's impossible. He's still never playing a game for the Crows, so does that mean he's on the list until he doesn't not never play a game for them? Schrodinger's Ruckman.

 

[Sellout Scully]

Remember in Roos' first year as coach, when we were really, truly horrible, and he at least made us difficult to score against?

Where's that gone?

And even then we still beat Richmond

 

[Yakker]

On the ruck stocks the article below makes one stop and think. The late call on the third man up rule probably hurt us in hind sight. Had we known that there was no 3rd man up in future our recruiting may have looked a whole lot different?


http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-04-27/the-ruck-rule-change-dilemma

MELBOURNE entered November with every reason to be confident in its ruck stocks.

Its list contained All Australian ruckman Max Gawn, a handy back-up Jake Spencer and a 'third man up' specialist in new recruit Jordan Lewis.

It expected Mitch King to return from a second knee reconstruction and develop with the Casey Demons.

Meanwhile rookie Lachlan Filipovic was a long-term prospect after showing good signs with Sandringham after converting from soccer and basketball.

However in December, with little warning, the 'third man up' was banned.

The Demons immediately lost the Lewis option.

Then in rounds three and five when they lost Gawn and Spencer respectively during games, the ruling arguably caused them to lose a whole lot more, as the tactics available to cover for the injured ruckman's absence were reduced.

Against Geelong, despite Jack Watts battling hard against the odds, Melbourne lost the capability to continue the inside 50 advantage of 32-18 it had at half-time into the second half.

It was overrun by 32 points in the final quarter and lost the inside 50 count by two in the second half.

Against the Tigers it led the inside 50 count 39-20 at half-time.

In the final quarter, without Spencer, Melbourne lost the inside 50 count nine to 22 and were once again outscored by 33 points in the final quarter.

Imagine if Clayton Oliver and Watts had been able to double team Zac Smith or Toby Nankervis.

Would that have turned losses into important wins?

In the next six weeks, with Gawn and Spencer sidelined, that December ruling might bite even harder as neither King nor Filipovic are ready to step into the AFL team.

It means first-year coach Simon Goodwin will have to be innovative to create a system that keeps the Demons' season alive in the next six rounds against Essendon, Hawthorn, Adelaide, North Melbourne, Gold Coast and Collingwood.

Sam Frost might get the job with Watts acting as back-up, as happened on Monday night.

Watts has been good but he will be cooked if he takes on the ruck for the next six weeks.

In any event, his class is needed elsewhere.

Frost is a competitor who has speed and can jump, but he is just 194cm.

Cam Pedersen is another option after a reasonable game in the VFL, however he may be needed as a forward to replace Tim Smith, who punctured his lung against Richmond, while Oscar McDonald could go down back to replace Frost.

Another option is to leave out Pedersen and use Watts as a second forward/ruckman and have Lewis pinch-hit in the ruck too.

Lewis has shown he has a leap so he might be deployed occasionally at boundary throw-ins, mixing and matching midfielders as the nominated ruckman to confuse the opposition and the opposing ruckman.

Don't laugh.

Using midfielders in the ruck is becoming more common with Shaun Grigg having a crack for the Tigers at times this season.

Regardless of who nominates as the ruck, the other imperative for the Demons, particularly on a fast deck such as Etihad Stadium, will be to get numbers around the ball to stifle the opposition.

It is something Melbourne is good at however its players will have to use the ball well when exiting stoppages because it will be outnumbered in other areas of the ground.

Alternatively it could put numbers behind the ball, conceding the stoppage to some extent and use pace and guile to rebound hard against the opposition, creating scoring chances in open space.

It's a tough ask but a good challenge for Goodwin and his team's desire to play fearless football.


Melbourne's situation (and the impact of the 'third man up' ban) also raises the question once again as to whether clubs should be able to look beyond their list to offer ruckmen in state leagues a short-term contract to cover such contingencies.

This is not a new idea but the removal of the 'third man up' has made losing a ruckman – never ideal – even more destabilising.

It could have the potential to undermine the competitiveness of a team with lesser talent than Melbourne.

That alone makes mid-season trades and short-term contracts as ideas that should be given real consideration.

Particularly with time being spent considering radical restructuring of the fixture and stronger draft mechanisms put in place to maintain competitiveness.

Yet list restrictions that reduce mid-season flexibility are something of an anomaly and work against that objective.

Goodwin can't worry about that now. He has to put a plan in place for the Bombers and beyond.

If he can produce a winning formula his reputation will only get stronger.

And our thinking as to what is possible might shift once again.

 

[Topkent]

On the ruck stocks the article below makes one stop and think. The late call on the third man up rule probably hurt us in hind sight. Had we known that there was no 3rd man up in future our recruiting may have looked a whole lot different?


http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-04-27/the-ruck-rule-change-dilemma

MELBOURNE entered November with every reason to be confident in its ruck stocks.

Its list contained All Australian ruckman Max Gawn, a handy back-up Jake Spencer and a 'third man up' specialist in new recruit Jordan Lewis.

It expected Mitch King to return from a second knee reconstruction and develop with the Casey Demons.

Meanwhile rookie Lachlan Filipovic was a long-term prospect after showing good signs with Sandringham after converting from soccer and basketball.

However in December, with little warning, the 'third man up' was banned.

The Demons immediately lost the Lewis option.

Then in rounds three and five when they lost Gawn and Spencer respectively during games, the ruling arguably caused them to lose a whole lot more, as the tactics available to cover for the injured ruckman's absence were reduced.

Against Geelong, despite Jack Watts battling hard against the odds, Melbourne lost the capability to continue the inside 50 advantage of 32-18 it had at half-time into the second half.

It was overrun by 32 points in the final quarter and lost the inside 50 count by two in the second half.

Against the Tigers it led the inside 50 count 39-20 at half-time.

In the final quarter, without Spencer, Melbourne lost the inside 50 count nine to 22 and were once again outscored by 33 points in the final quarter.

Imagine if Clayton Oliver and Watts had been able to double team Zac Smith or Toby Nankervis.

Would that have turned losses into important wins?

In the next six weeks, with Gawn and Spencer sidelined, that December ruling might bite even harder as neither King nor Filipovic are ready to step into the AFL team.

It means first-year coach Simon Goodwin will have to be innovative to create a system that keeps the Demons' season alive in the next six rounds against Essendon, Hawthorn, Adelaide, North Melbourne, Gold Coast and Collingwood.

Sam Frost might get the job with Watts acting as back-up, as happened on Monday night.

Watts has been good but he will be cooked if he takes on the ruck for the next six weeks.

In any event, his class is needed elsewhere.

Frost is a competitor who has speed and can jump, but he is just 194cm.

Cam Pedersen is another option after a reasonable game in the VFL, however he may be needed as a forward to replace Tim Smith, who punctured his lung against Richmond, while Oscar McDonald could go down back to replace Frost.

Another option is to leave out Pedersen and use Watts as a second forward/ruckman and have Lewis pinch-hit in the ruck too.

Lewis has shown he has a leap so he might be deployed occasionally at boundary throw-ins, mixing and matching midfielders as the nominated ruckman to confuse the opposition and the opposing ruckman.

Don't laugh.

Using midfielders in the ruck is becoming more common with Shaun Grigg having a crack for the Tigers at times this season.

Regardless of who nominates as the ruck, the other imperative for the Demons, particularly on a fast deck such as Etihad Stadium, will be to get numbers around the ball to stifle the opposition.

It is something Melbourne is good at however its players will have to use the ball well when exiting stoppages because it will be outnumbered in other areas of the ground.

Alternatively it could put numbers behind the ball, conceding the stoppage to some extent and use pace and guile to rebound hard against the opposition, creating scoring chances in open space.

It's a tough ask but a good challenge for Goodwin and his team's desire to play fearless football.


Melbourne's situation (and the impact of the 'third man up' ban) also raises the question once again as to whether clubs should be able to look beyond their list to offer ruckmen in state leagues a short-term contract to cover such contingencies.

This is not a new idea but the removal of the 'third man up' has made losing a ruckman – never ideal – even more destabilising.

It could have the potential to undermine the competitiveness of a team with lesser talent than Melbourne.

That alone makes mid-season trades and short-term contracts as ideas that should be given real consideration.

Particularly with time being spent considering radical restructuring of the fixture and stronger draft mechanisms put in place to maintain competitiveness.

Yet list restrictions that reduce mid-season flexibility are something of an anomaly and work against that objective.

Goodwin can't worry about that now. He has to put a plan in place for the Bombers and beyond.

If he can produce a winning formula his reputation will only get stronger.

And our thinking as to what is possible might shift once again.

That article kinda skims past the fact that we dominated the I50 counts against both teams for periods yet couldn't score. A ruck wouldn't have helped that

 

[TheCount]

That article kinda skims past the fact that we dominated the I50 counts against both teams for periods yet couldn't score. A ruck wouldn't have helped that

Having one of our key forwards inside 50 rather than in the ruck would have tho.

 

[Topkent]

Having one of our key forwards inside 50 rather than in the ruck would have tho.

We dominated the I50 counts in the first halves when Gawn and Spencer were still fit.

 

[Yakker]

That article kinda skims past the fact that we dominated the I50 counts against both teams for periods yet couldn't score. A ruck wouldn't have helped that

True. Having Watts in the fwd line is a must and he can't be going back there to rest after busting his arse rucking. Pedo needs to come in to share the rucking duties with Frost. Hogan needs to lead into space and Kent needs to be bought back in and given a chance to readjust to the pace of AFL footy. We need Garlett, Petracca and Jeffy at pace to the fall of the ball in the fwd line.

If we struggle in the ruck contest which results in less inside 50's we damn well better capitalise on the chances we get more effectively than we have been.

 

[The Dr]

If anything the new third man up rule should've meant Gawn was even more dominant this year....


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