Roast Cripps - time to go

[GremioPower]

Ryder’s essentially worthless. Like a free agent deal being done as a trade.

10 & Howard for 12 & 18 is essentially the deal.

So:
- Doog/12 for 10/18;
- Ryder/4th for a 3rd.

My question remains unanswered. Even if we have gotten overs for Ryder, would we have gotten overs for Doog?

I still believe that the Saints have made the deal as I have set it:
- 10 for Doog/Ryder;
- 18/3rd for 12/4th.

It makes sense for them. They move only two positions down in the Draft, while getting better both in the short term, with Ryder, and in the medium term, with Doog.

 

[Macca19]

Champions are champions, there are always clubs out there prepared to pay up for the short term if they think it could be a difference in a flag tilt. We'd get more for either of them than we just got for Dougal.

Completely disagree. We'd get a future 3rd or something.

 

[King_Tredrea]

Completely disagree. We'd get a future 3rd or something.

A future 3rd for Robbie Gray or Travis Boak in a trade? Nah.

 

[GremioPower]

Completely disagree. We'd get a future 3rd or something.

We have to account our history at the trade table. We tend to sell low. We would obviously get unders for those players' league rights. It is better not even trying. Thank goodness they haven't asked to leave.

 

[Duck Farmer]

We want more Alex Rance types.

Yeah, and when you add in those Dusty Martin and Tom Lynch types we also want, our trading and drafting strategy will pay off in spades.

Calm the farm people.

 

[tribey]

Yeah, and when you add in those Dusty Martin and Tom Lynch types we also want, our trading and drafting strategy will pay off in spades.

Calm the farm people.

Given our near-future key position stocks currently consist of Marshall, Clurey and FILE NOT FOUND, at this point I’d settle for a Cleve Hughes/Ray Hall-type.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Completely disagree. We'd get a future 3rd or something.

Dayne Beams went for two first rounders last year, he's only a couple of years younger than Boak/Gray and he's not as good as either. Bryce Gibbs for two first rounders and Gary Ablett for pick 19 the year before that.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

A future 3rd for Robbie Gray or Travis Boak in a trade? Nah.

You forget who is doing the trading.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Howard being traded because Westhoff taking his spot down back is incredible. Literally the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

What the club needs to do is come out and say what this is - a rebuild.

To trade out Wingard, Polec & Howard, to a lesser extent Frampton and with potentially SPP to come tomorrow....surely discussions internally must have been held to say "hey, this group isn't going to win the flag, what do we need to do to fasttrack for the next tilt at a flag".

If this is the case, then I can see the validity in what they are doing, as much as it sucks and as much as it leaves us in a terrible position in the short term.

They can't say that.

Not making finals is a failure. A rebuild means failing in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 etc.

For the first time ever, Ken at the end of the season and at the B&F said he is sick of talk of just making finals, "we have to talk about winning the flag." We know its not gonna happen.

Oh. but Ken has been brave says Koch, playing the kids. despite the fact that it was only 3 x top 15 2019 draftee picks. Once we started losing we only really played young plays when there were injuries, or gave them 2 games, then dropped them.

So much for Ken's. this is my best win ever and Koch's mission accomplished s**t after we beat Melbourne in Rd 1.

They have done a part mid table, stay mid table re-build, adding Watts, Motlop, Rockliff, Burton, Lycett, with depth of Trengove, McKenzie, Mayes, Thomas, Barry and Sutcliffe the last 2 years.

AFL has turned into politics, bullshit and spin. You can see it in Howard trade, Wines and his management team TLA's manipulation of the situation as well as all the other crap we have had to listen to.

Last night I watched the doco. Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room, and I can't help but think that this corporate style bullshit has entered AFL footy clubs full time. Not the corruption, but the bullshit spin at every opportunity.

About 85% of the way in, CEO Jeff Schilling had left. cashed out $35m of shares, said he was leaving for personal reason, which was absolute bullshit, he finally realised what disaster was coming, then the share price plummets straight away and Chairman who became acting CEO, Ken "Kenny boy" Lay a couple of months later, cashes out $26m of shares ( was around $300m less than 6 months earlier) and at a meeting for employee's about the problems says;

"we have no accounting irregularities, the company's in the best shape it's ever been in.
From the standpoint of Enron stock, we're going to bring it back...we're going to bring it back."

"Alright, we're down to questions. I've got a few of them here.
'I would like to know if you are on crack? If so, that would explain a lot.
If not. You may want to start because it's going
to be a long time before we trust you again."

Enron trader
"It certainly wasn't clear to anyone at Enron, much less anyone
outside of Enron it wasn't really clear what was going on or...what was going to happen."

Ken Lay from the employee meeting again
"I know this is a lot... There is a lot of speculation about Andy's involvement
I and the board are also sure that, Andy has operated in the most ethical
and appropriate manner possible."

Narrator
The next day, Andy Fastow was fired when the Enron board discovered that
he had made more than $45 million dollars from his LJM partnerships
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=enron-the-smartest-guys-in-the-room

I sort of feel there is a bit of Enron going on at Port. There's a bit of a con, the can is being kicked down the road, hoping we aren't found out, because we are hoping we get success, before we get caught out, the exaggerated spin to keep the punters/analysts calm, nobody really knows whats going on / how to get out of the mess we are in, and you know that at some point there is going to be a crash.

 

[tribey]

They can't say that.

Not making finals is a failure. A rebuild means failing in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 etc.

Koch has been adamant we’ll never bottom out under his watch because of assumptions we’ll end up back in a 2011-situation with no crowds and no money.

Never mind we packed out the pre-development Oval against that famed box office draw, Melbourne, at the end of 2011, and that watching a teamful of good kids grow before our eyes with 3 & 5.5 win seasons is MUCH preferable to half a decade of 10-11 win seasons as we churn through recycled spuds,

We’ll continue to row to 10th place with one oar.

 

[GremioPower]

They can't say that.

Not making finals is a failure. A rebuild means failing in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 etc.

For the first time ever, Ken at the end of the season and at the B&F said he is sick of talk of just making finals, "we have to talk about winning the flag." We know its not gonna happen.

Oh. but Ken has been brave says Koch, playing the kids. despite the fact that it was only 3 x top 15 2019 draftee picks. Once we started losing we only really played young plays when there were injuries, or gave them 2 games, then dropped them.

[...]

AFL has turned into politics, bullshit and spin. You can see it in Howard trade, Wines and his management team TLA's manipulation of the situation as well as all the other crap we have had to listen to.

Last night I watched the doco. Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room, and I can't help but think that this corporate style bullshit has entered AFL footy clubs. Not the corruption, but the bullhit spin at every opportunity.

[...]

I sort of feel there is a bit of Enron going on at Port. There's a bit of a con, the can is being kicked down the road, hoping we aren't found out, because we get success before get caught out, the exaggerated spin to keep the punters/analysts calm, nobody really knows whats going on / how to get out of the mess we are in, and you know that at some point there is going to be a crash.

That's pretty much my impression too. You have summarize it all. We have sold our souls, the devil won't deliver his part, but soon enough he will demand his share of the deal. It is not going to be pretty when we find it out.

The bad news would be that, for the club, it is going to be 2009 all over again.

The good news, however, could be that the AFL may accept giving the shitshow they have themselves created back to the members - they would simply throw some scapegoat into the fire [KT, I am looking at you...].

 

[jack_black16]

Seriously, calm the farm people. We all wanted Ryder out so Ladhams and Hayes get games. Frampton is not AFL standard. I agree Howard was sold unnecessarily and for unders. But what Cripps did last year was fantastic even though we all thought it was suicide at the time.

Reserve judgment (if you actually have any and are not just emotionally labile ) until the draft. Personally, I’d rather have Rozee and Duursma on our list than Wingard and Polec. 12 months ago, I wouldn’t have imagined saying this.

I don’t agree with the Howard trade. But if he approached St Kilda, as has been rumoured, then I don’t want those sorts on my list. I want 100% committed types. I will wait and see what we end up with in December before taking my pitchfork to the club and demanding to see Cripps.

Relax, take a breath and wait for the outcome before losing your sh!t.

How would we know this? He was barely played despite Dixon missing most of the year.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

How long has Cripps been here? feels like an eternity

 

[FishingRick04]

We're in serious danger of being a bottom 4 side next year after this monumental fu** up by Cripps and Hinkley. fu** them both

Rather bottom 4 than 10th

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Rather bottom 4 than 10th

Where we finish doesn't really matter if they back the muppet in the box with the rebuild.

 

[chachi11]

Wasn't there rumours of him wanted by the Saints earlier in the year?
Did we beg him to stay like we did Ken?

Lol Port

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

Wasn't there rumours of him wanted by the Saints earlier in the year?
Did we beg him to stay like we did Ken?

Lol Port

There was talk of this toward the end of the last couple of off seasons.

 

[VineValerian]

Cripps is right in saying a guy just inside your best 22 is worth pick 18. In isolation, as he has yet to fully develop and probably is just about to enter that phase (so of course we nick him off)

But ........ we also gave up Ryder and pick 10 to effectively go down two picks (forget the future pick exchanges).

And Doogs fits the profile we desperately need - just entering that 23 to 27 age demographic + versatile and athletic KPP/ruck. And ....... he had 3 years on a contract to go.

Port had ALL the aces here, absolutely no question about it. Saints had not a leg to stand on, and yet a rookie list manager bamboozled Cripps.

We should have either:
A. kept him or
B. got massive "overs"

Not accepted what his ability dictated was fair at the time, without considering the other issues.

What's done is done. Let's hope today we can move 29 somewhat closer to pick 20 (somehow), without trading out Ladhams, Hayes and Marshall in the process.

 

[Memphis]

My only question is why wasn't this thread made earlier?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

How long has Cripps been here? feels like an eternity

2011.

KT talks about the document Cripps put together on the list when KT arrived at the end of the 2011 season and feels like we are still working to it. He was our forwards and backs coach for a few years before that.

 

[n4nirvana]

i am so depressed about the state of the club

 

[OneGreatClub]

They can't say that.

Not making finals is a failure. A rebuild means failing in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 etc.

For the first time ever, Ken at the end of the season and at the B&F said he is sick of talk of just making finals, "we have to talk about winning the flag." We know its not gonna happen.

Oh. but Ken has been brave says Koch, playing the kids. despite the fact that it was only 3 x top 15 2019 draftee picks. Once we started losing we only really played young plays when there were injuries, or gave them 2 games, then dropped them.

So much for Ken's. this is my best win ever and Koch's mission accomplished s**t after we beat Melbourne in Rd 1.

They have done a part mid table, stay mid table re-build, adding Watts, Motlop, Rockliff, Burton, Lycett, with depth of Trengove, McKenzie, Mayes, Thomas, Barry and Sutcliffe the last 2 years.

AFL has turned into politics, bullshit and spin. You can see it in Howard trade, Wines and his management team TLA's manipulation of the situation as well as all the other crap we have had to listen to.

Last night I watched the doco. Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room, and I can't help but think that this corporate style bullshit has entered AFL footy clubs. Not the corruption, but the bullhit spin at every opportunity.

About 85% of the way in, CEO Jeff Schilling had left. cashed out $35m of shares, said he was leaving for personal reason, which was absolute bullshit, he finally realised what disaster was coming, then the share price plummets straight away and Chairman who became acting CEO, Ken "Kenny boy" Lay a couple of months later, cashes out $26m of shares ( was around $300m less than 6 months earlier) and at a meeting for employee's about the problems says;

"we have no accounting irregularities, the company's in the best shape it's ever been in.
From the standpoint of Enron stock, we're going to bring it back...we're going to bring it back."

"Alright, we're down to questions. I've got a few of them here.
'I would like to know if you are on crack? If so, that would explain a lot.
If not. You may want to start because it's going
to be a long time before we trust you again."

Enron trader
"It certainly wasn't clear to anyone at Enron, much less anyone
outside of Enron it wasn't really clear what was going on or...what was going to happen."

Ken Lay from the employee meeting again
"I know this is a lot... There is a lot of speculation about Andy's involvement
I and the board are also sure that. Andy has operated in the most ethical
and appropriate manner possible."

Narrator
The next day, Andy Fastow was fired when the Enron board discovered that
he had made more than $45 million dollars from his LJM partnerships
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=enron-the-smartest-guys-in-the-room

I sort of feel there is a bit of Enron going on at Port. There's a bit of a con, the can is being kicked down the road, hoping we aren't found out, because we are hoping we get success, before we get caught out, the exaggerated spin to keep the punters/analysts calm, nobody really knows whats going on / how to get out of the mess we are in, and you know that at some point there is going to be a crash.

This is so sad.

 

[Amarula]

You think he's being disingenuous?

Westhoff plays defence the way that we want to play it. Yeah, he's old as fu**, but he's also aggressive with his marking and is quick to move the ball on. So in the short term, he takes Howard's spot. It's similar to Watts in that regard.

Building for the long term is about what we do with the picks we got in the Howard trade to recruit players who can fill those holes. Gould plays the sort of style we want...Worrell probably does too. So does Lukosius, for that matter.

It's about how they play the position rather than the position they play. Howard is more your traditional defender type - the guy who will kill the contest but not really post any huge amount of score launches. We want more Alex Rance types.

But even Rance wouldn’t be Rance without the Grimes and Astbury types to kill the contest. A defence full of Alex Rances wouldn’t be nearly as effective as Richmond’s current mix.
And you really don’t have to keep fishing for ways to portray trading out a still developing 200cm KPD as a good thing. Comparing Rance to someone who’s played less than 40 games is over reach.
We all accept that it’s happened and we’re trying to move on.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

This is so sad.

AFL has turned into the dishonest industry. Sure they still expect players to get a hard ball and not wimp out in the contest, put your head in the hole type stuff, but off field it's now all politics, bullshit, spin, shine that turd at every opportunity, exaggerate, obviscate, etc when dealing with the public and most times behind closed doors.

 

[Long live PAFC]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I’m not defending our recruiting team, but perhaps we need some context.

Dixon and Lycett had to be recruited. Solid KPF and rucks who are ready to go don’t grow on trees.

Trengove, Watts, Toumpas, McKenzie, Mayes, etc all cost very little. Even Motlop and Rockliff cost us nothing in draft capital and I’m not sure they have cost us a young player or caused us to miss out on a big fish. This has also been the strategy of Hawthorn, Sydney, etc ie have a strong foundation and top up with role players. The issue has been over estimating our ‘foundation’. There is not point to getting bit part players in if the core group isn’t good enough.
The question really is why is our core so average? Why move on Wingard, Polec, Howard etc and call all these role players failures whilst the same names continue to play at Port ie Hartlett, Ebert, Boak, Gray, Jonas, etc. Maybe this group just isn’t good enough and won’t win us a flag.

That feeds into Cripps not believing our list is where it should be, then why the hell isn’t it? He has had 8 years.

And the incongruity between some of our moves has been frustrating. We’ve alternated between almost there in 2014, to going all in in 2016/17, before rebuilding in 2019. We’ve traded in like we are in the premiership window and traded out like we are rebuilding.

Just on long contracts, whilst some of our players haven’t responded well and they have bitten us in the ass, these deals seem to be the norm and are used to give the club the power. For the right players, I’m not too fussed.