Poll: reason for Freos decline in 2023

[Ysaye]

Brayshaw and Serong are established players now with 100 and 60 games respectively. And I don't think Brodie can be claimed as young despite having played less games.

JOM is getting some stick, but I don't think he is performing that differently to Mundy last year. The style of his play, being one paced; these were known. Like others on here I think the four year contract is a worry.

It's on the wings where we are weak and lacking development. Acres being traded was shortsighted even though I can see why. The failure to get Henry to the required standard is hurting us. But the lack of a preseason strategy for how we would manage the wing position is what is disconcerting. It really looks like there was a total lack of concern.

No attempt to trial players such as Wilson or Clark. Chapman? No apparent grooming of Erasmus or Johnson into those positions. No confidence in Worner.

This season's most innovative positional move is Hughes to the wing. He is a fine workhorse and I am a fan of the positional depth he adds to our defense. Put him there, and get Clark on the wing.

For mine the whole "Wings are lacking" thing is a bit of a distraction. We are not losing the game on the wings and have probably only lost minor ground there despite losing Aish to the midfield for large amounts of time, O'Driscoll being out / missing part of preseason, Henry out of form and playing Hughes in place of Acres.

We structure to attack off half back, whereas it would be more appropriate to say our wingmen defend space. To that end it makes more sense to use our best ball users off half back; that is why Clark plays half back and Hughes is playing Wing. I can see us looking at playing Chapman on the wing at some point because of the combo of endurance and good positioning but given his height I can also see why we chose to keep him back as well. I agree that they might have tried Wilson on a wing (maybe he doesn't have the endurance); I think that he has lined up there a few times for Peel over the last two weeks so maybe that is a move that is coming?

For me, one of the more questionable management moves (on the surface) that affects the main midfield issue is moving Fyfe permanently forward. With respect to the lack of experience in the centre square he could have probably been able to make up for Mundy going, even if he was just rotating off the bench in there and unlike O'Meara would have already had more chemistry with Brayshaw and Serong.

Having said that however, I don't know how badly busted up Fyfe is, and the fact that his body hasn't held up despite a supposed good off season, so maybe it was the right call after all? The coaches also seemed overconcsious to make sure the forwardline had enough experience in it, so that clearly was the other factor. At the end of the day he has barely played, so maybe it is a bit of a mute point.

The Brayshaw decline (through what I am assuming is his back injury which I am guessing from watching means he is struggling to lean down to get the ball on the ground?) is a problem and a decent part of the deficit - I wonder what the expected recovery to a more normal level is on that? Like everyone else, I do wonder whether moving him out to half forward in the meantime and bringing Erasmus (who imo is nauturally good with the ground ball and also defensively) into the middle would help and also help put games in, but as has already been said, you have an even bigger experience gap to deal with in the short term.

 

[G Mus]

Not using our players with pace or penetrating kicks on the wing is the most damning. I agree.

A defense minded coach prioritises the defensive aspects of wingers, I think JL would feel Clark is too much of a liability there

 

[Joao]

You and the hyperbole lately

How is that hyperbole?

• Lost at home to the back-to-back spooners (who might 3-peat)
• Could only get over West Coast with 19 fit players in the 4th quarter
• Had to wait for the GC to stop playing to claw back a significant deficit
• Then got smashed at home by a team that had won 2/5 with a % of 70 odd.
• We literally have the worst midfield in the game and a historically comical forwardline led by a 5 gamer
• Our "gun" defence has shipped 230 points in two weeks
• If you like the eye test, we look absolutely awful for 95% of games

We're basically staying competitive with the **** sides because Darcy and Serong are dominant.

You've got massive purple coloured glasses on if you think we're going any better than spoon contenders. Slap yourself on the head indeed.

 

[Taylor]

Data for contested possessions and ground ball gets is not pretty compared to other teams.
Source - Wheelo Ratings.

You don't need to collect ground ball wins when you've won it in the air. I'm not being flippant when I'm saying the issue is the marks, and I know you're not suggesting I am, but it is that simple. Jackson needs to mark more. Our defenders need to mark more. Our forwards need to take more marks between the arcs. We need guys taking marks.

 

[Mags98]

You don't need to collect ground ball wins when you've won it in the air. I'm not being flippant when I'm saying the issue is the marks, and I know you're not suggesting I am, but it is that simple. Jackson needs to mark more. Our defenders need to mark more. Our forwards need to take more marks between the arcs. We need guys taking marks.

that was basically our game plan in 2019 and it sort of worked, kick it to lobb/tabs/darcy and they hold a contested mark. i think the mongrel punt called it a get out of jail mark, losing that and seemingly the backs ability to intercept mark has us starting attacks on the back foot

 

[Taylor]

that was basically our game plan in 2019 and it sort of worked, kick it to lobb/tabs/darcy and they hold a contested mark. i think the mongrel punt called it a get out of jail mark, losing that and seemingly the backs ability to intercept mark has us starting attacks on the back foot

It's basically how you win finals football against a high pressing, high pressure effort opponent. You beat them in the air when they force you into the long kick.

 

[PurpleEyes]

that was basically our game plan in 2019 and it sort of worked, kick it to lobb/tabs/darcy and they hold a contested mark. i think the mongrel punt called it a get out of jail mark, losing that and seemingly the backs ability to intercept mark has us starting attacks on the back foot

Which is why I say to look closely at our R1 result against the Saints to properly understand where our game plan is failing in 2023.
They beat us in the midfield with intent to run, move quickly and play on … most obvious in the last quarter.
We actually won the contested marks 14-7 and total marks 136-87 (marks inside50 8 each).

 

[sumavich]

Broadbridge saying this morning that we have let go of too many heart & soul players for Jackson.
Says Jackson hasn't been the offensive threat that Freo had hoped for.
Sounding like the death knell for Bell if this Jackson experiment doesn't work out

 

[Taylor]

Broadbridge saying this morning that we have let go of too many heart & soul players for Jackson.
Says Jackson hasn't been the offensive threat that Freo had hoped for.
Sounding like the death knell for Bell if this Jackson experiment doesn't work out

That's one of those nothing arguments like saying a team wasn't playing with enough heart. We got smashed in the final against the Pies with those players, minus Darcy Tucker, playing.

Not a single person would be describing Rory Lobb as a heart and soul player at the club. He played injured a lot and is tough like all of them, but not a glue for the group sort.

 

[freo1997]

Ji

That's one of those nothing arguments like saying a team wasn't playing with enough heart. We got smashed in the final against the Pies with those players, minus Darcy Tucker, playing.

Not a single person would be describing Rory Lobb as a heart and soul player at the club. He played injured a lot and is tough like all of them, but not a glue for the group sort.

It’s the gameplan/ball movement. He just has to train it into them.

 

[Bigger]

Taylor is right. That outlet mark being denied us because our marking is down is one of the main reasons the gameplan is faltering. If you rely on rapidfire handpassing to create the loose man for kicking or to get it to the right couple of blokes for distribution, and then on them hitting small lead-ups using pinpoint accuracy and careful kicking and outlet marking down the line when that's not available, then you are really increasing opportunities for error to unmanageable levels.

We want to control the pill through possession and in the air. Problem is ground ball gets are so important because the ball is on the ground for a disturbingly large amount of time. Try 70% and you'd be close to spot on.

You should try and be good at what reality requires rather than concentrate on constructing an alternative to reality.

Add in that most scoring comes from turnovers and we have pinned our tail on completely the wrong donkey. That's why the bottom four for efficiency are doing better than the top four (we were top 4 for efficiency before the weekend's debacle). Because they value speed over efficiency and pressure over precision. Forcing turnovers.

Our gameplan looks great when it works, but it just makes things worse when it doesn't.

We did that thing that all magical thinkers do. We ignored the bits where it didn't work and wanked ourselves dry at the bits where it did.

 

[Footskill]

You don't need to collect ground ball wins when you've won it in the air. I'm not being flippant when I'm saying the issue is the marks, and I know you're not suggesting I am, but it is that simple. Jackson needs to mark more. Our defenders need to mark more. Our forwards need to take more marks between the arcs. We need guys taking marks.

Chip it around all day and sure you'll have your marks. Kick it down the line to a pack and more often than not its going to hit the ground. Also don't need stats to see how beaten they were in clearances

 

[Taylor]

Chip it around all day and sure you'll have your marks. Kick it down the line to a pack and more often than not its going to hit the ground. Also don't need stats to see how beaten they were in clearances

Those marks across half back aren't the ones I want, it's between the arcs as in on the wing and in the very middle of the ground. The exact spot we can't take a mark.

The two game issues I've been nagging on about all season have been clearances and marks between the arcs. They are fundamentals of a good team and we are lacking them, it won't stand up in finals without it.

But if it turns and Jackson starts taking those marks where he is doing early work to get his body free and then it's bouncing off his chest/face/hands the entire balance will rocket the other direction - suddenly we will look like we are moving the ball quickly, suddenly it will look like we are way more dangerous because suddenly those kicks off half back will become inside fifties and we can go back to intercept marking opposition attacks, pressuring their kickers to allow the long high ball kick for our defenders and then rebounding through marks between the arcs.

Long story short. Jackson or another of our forwards, perhaps Corbett, needs to be taking marks inside that white square in the middle of the ground.

 

[Footskill]

Those marks across half back aren't the ones I want, it's between the arcs as in on the wing and in the very middle of the ground. The exact spot we can't take a mark.

The two game issues I've been nagging on about all season have been clearances and marks between the arcs. They are fundamentals of a good team and we are lacking them, it won't stand up in finals without it.

But if it turns and Jackson starts taking those marks where he is doing early work to get his body free and then it's bouncing off his chest/face/hands the entire balance will rocket the other direction - suddenly we will look like we are moving the ball quickly, suddenly it will look like we are way more dangerous because suddenly those kicks off half back will become inside fifties and we can go back to intercept marking opposition attacks, pressuring their kickers to allow the long high ball kick for our defenders and then rebounding through marks between the arcs.

Long story short. Jackson or another of our forwards, perhaps Corbett, needs to be taking marks inside that white square in the middle of the ground.

Understand. But unless they move the ball quickly instead of wasting time then bombing it, the marks on the wings are usually to a large pack. It's not a reasonable expectation that they would consistently out Mark a large pack no matter how good they are.

 

[Taylor]

Understand. But unless they move the ball quickly instead of wasting time then bombing it, the marks on the wings are usually to a large pack. It's not a reasonable expectation that they would consistently out Mark a large pack no matter how good they are.

The long kicks don't need to be to there, but they do when you're not going to take the mark. If Jackson and Fyfe had the sort of sticky hands Fyfe did last decade then we would take the kick to the middle - but we don't, so we don't.

We also don't need our talls to be marking if the smalls are marking - but there are no options inside so they kick long to the pack.

And sides that take a mark there are objectively better, win more games and win finals. We don't take marks in packs up the line enough, if at all.

 

[estibador]

How is that hyperbole?

• Lost at home to the back-to-back spooners (who might 3-peat)
• Could only get over West Coast with 19 fit players in the 4th quarter
• Had to wait for the GC to stop playing to claw back a significant deficit
• Then got smashed at home by a team that had won 2/5 with a % of 70 odd.
• We literally have the worst midfield in the game and a historically comical forwardline led by a 5 gamer
• Our "gun" defence has shipped 230 points in two weeks
• If you like the eye test, we look absolutely awful for 95% of games

We're basically staying competitive with the **** sides because Darcy and Serong are dominant.

You've got massive purple coloured glasses on if you think we're going any better than spoon contenders. Slap yourself on the head indeed.

Not to mention the concerning fact that we're going this poorly and haven't even started playing any of the finals sides from last year yet.

Well, not quite - we just played the worst finals side from last year and they smacked us by nearly 10 goals on our own deck.

 

[theGav56]

Not to mention the concerning fact that we're going this poorly and haven't even started playing any of the finals sides from last year yet.

Well, not quite - we just played the worst finals side from last year and they smacked us by nearly 10 goals on our own deck.

https://media.tenor.com/HzQPE7fENwoAAAAd/bright-side-bright-side-of-life.gif

 

[Freomaniac]

there is various reasons

 

[Gekko71]

While I do think there have been instances this year, of all the various voting options cited, I still didn't vote because I disagree with the premise.

I do think our start to the year was sub-optimal, but I don't think Freo are in decline. To me that feels like either a distortion, or a perception influenced by matters of scale.

Viewed up close and in isolation, our early season form suggests a decline yes.

Standing further back however and looking at the larger trends, a picture of steady improvement over a period of several years is more obvious.

Myself I see the early team performance this year only as a sign that the preseason was not quite long enough to let us fully accommodate all the changes that happened.

It's easy to write these off as just the regular personnel changes that happen each year - but to me it's a flawed view. No creative business can effortlessly accommodate the loss and replacement of multiple key performance personnel on multiple departments (including management and skill development) without their being some sort of hiccup.

And an AFL team is an enormously creative enterprise. The whole thing operates in a state of creative flow, that is entirely dependent on synergy between improvising performers, and the overriding structures that make their actions predictable to each other.

In the off-season we lost key performers from every line (forward, back, wing and midfield) as well as a manager that shaped the overall structure of the midfield -- from where everything flows.

And, we had to compensate for losing both key performers and a midfield manager/director, by using new and/or developing replacements on field, and we had to do it in a very restricted timeframe.

Hiccups and/or a lack of seamless integration between the various moving parts was always going to happen.. but that's not a message JL could take to the fans for numerous reasons.

It was also always going to be a temporary thing, as we know from last year that Freo's overall synthesis of system and performers works well.

It just took longer than the time we had to make everything gell -- that's all.

If the season has started in May instead of March, our collective perspective would be very different. Before, the team wasn't firing on all cylinders -- last week however it was clear they have started to.

 

[Footskill]

While I do think there have been instances this year, of all the various voting options cited, I still didn't vote because I disagree with the premise.

I do think our start to the year was sub-optimal, but I don't think Freo are in decline. To me that feels like either a distortion, or a perception influenced by matters of scale.

Viewed up close and in isolation, our early season form suggests a decline yes.

Standing further back however and looking at the larger trends, a picture of steady improvement over a period of several years is more obvious.

Myself I see the early team performance this year only as a sign that the preseason was not quite long enough to let us fully accommodate all the changes that happened.

It's easy to write these off as just the regular personnel changes that happen each year - but to me it's a flawed view. No creative business can effortlessly accommodate the loss and replacement of multiple key performance personnel on multiple departments (including management and skill development) without their being some sort of hiccup.

And an AFL team is an enormously creative enterprise. The whole thing operates in a state of creative flow, that is entirely dependent on synergy between improvising performers, and the overriding structures that make their actions predictable to each other.

In the off-season we lost key performers from every line (forward, back, wing and midfield) as well as a manager that shaped the overall structure of the midfield -- from where everything flows.

And, we had to compensate for losing both key performers and a midfield manager/director, by using new and/or developing replacements on field, and we had to do it in a very restricted timeframe.

Hiccups and/or a lack of seamless integration between the various moving parts was always going to happen.. but that's not a message JL could take to the fans for numerous reasons.

It was also always going to be a temporary thing, as we know from last year that Freo's overall synthesis of system and performers works well.

It just took longer than the time we had to make everything gell -- that's all.

If the season has started in May instead of March, our collective perspective would be very different. Before, the team wasn't firing on all cylinders -- last week however it was clear they have started to.

Good comprehensive write up. Agree, there wasn't just one reason for the below par performances and all the above is applicable.

The poll, at the time it was created was just to get an idea what most put down above all the other options as being their reason. There was alot of debate at the time and everyone had differing views. Was a thread it could also be discussed instead of game day threads etc

 

[Freomaniac]

it was a mixture of certain things....

It just didnt click consistently for the 1st 6-7 games.

 

[freoextra]

I think the coaching group must take the blame for this. The team was so disconnected at the beginning, like a team that had played very little together and the new guys appeared to not know their roles or were not confident in playing them. It really was a lost preseason when these connection issues needed to be dealt with.
But full credit to the coaching group and the players and especially the playing group leaders for changing course midseason and correcting an almost fatal start.

 

[FreoGirl]

I couldn't stand coming onto Big Footy at the start of the year, because there was so much negativity. I made a prediction that the same people bagging the club would be the same ones begging for barcodes at finals time.

 

[G Mus]

I couldn't stand coming onto Big Footy at the start of the year, because there was so much negativity. I made a prediction that the same people bagging the club would be the same ones begging for barcodes at finals time.

For front row seats to see our outdated game plan get shown up in finals

 

[FreoGirl]

For front row seats to see our outdated game plan get shown up in finals

there's some optimism...