Standard of Umpiring - Suggestions for change

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sideswipe said:
That's your imagination. The scumps are trained to all call it how they see it, and then move on. Each of their decisions are scrutinised in review. They simply would never risk it. That's the self interest.
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It's my understanding that they actually count the mistakes and apply percentages, in some sort of analytic exercise to show transparency. If that's the case, they risk getting "assigned" two mistakes, instead of just the first mistake. Having said that, I've seen commentators speculate a number of times that an umpire has given a decision to "make up" for the first mistake. And I often agree with them, not that i'm saying that it actually happened that way.
 
sr36 said:
Cheating is nonsense, but bias towards the home team isn't. You're more likely to think a stand up comic is funny if the rest of the audience is laughing and you are more likely to think a free kick us there if 50000 people are screaming for it.
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Which, if crowd on your side does help and I think there is evidence it does, it may explain why we do so well in free kick stats. For a positive conspiracy that the fix is in by the AFL to give their darling, Collingwood, umpiring benefits these numbers are suspicious.

Rankings for the last 10 full seasons in frees for and frees against per game. Collingwoods position in the AFL

Frees Against

2022 16th
2021 14th
2020 18th
2019 17th
2018 17th
2017 18th
2016 10th
2015 17th
2014 13th
2013 18th

Frees For

2022 7th
2021 17th
2020 3rd
2019 4th
2018 3rd
2017 14th
2016 4th
2015 7th
2014 17th
2013 15th

Now while I am not one to get worried too much by the umps, especially in the last 2 games where we win, any oppo supporter who had a conspiracy zeal could go to town on the above as absolute evidence the AFL were cheating in Collingwoods favour.

6 seasons in the last 10 where our average was either last or 2nd last for FA and in the same 10 season finished top 4 four times in FF average and 6 in the top 8. Its pretty laughable people think we get a bad go from the umps.

PS the Murphy, Moore and Johnson decisions in the last Q Sun were howlers, but we won and if Adelaide had taken a few of their early easy set shots in the first half , we likely lose. Lady luck shined on us on Sunday overall.
 
Gone Critical said:
Which, if crowd on your side does help and I think there is evidence it does, it may explain why we do so well in free kick stats. For a positive conspiracy that the fix is in by the AFL to give their darling, Collingwood, umpiring benefits these numbers are suspicious.

Rankings for the last 10 full seasons in frees for and frees against per game. Collingwoods position in the AFL

Frees Against

2022 16th
2021 14th
2020 18th
2019 17th
2018 17th
2017 18th
2016 10th
2015 17th
2014 13th
2013 18th

Frees For

2022 7th
2021 17th
2020 3rd
2019 4th
2018 3rd
2017 14th
2016 4th
2015 7th
2014 17th
2013 15th

Now while I am not one to get worried too much by the umps, especially in the last 2 games where we win, any oppo supporter who had a conspiracy zeal could go to town on the above as absolute evidence the AFL were cheating in Collingwoods favour.

6 seasons in the last 10 where our average was either last or 2nd last for FA and in the same 10 season finished top 4 four times in FF average and 6 in the top 8. Its pretty laughable people think we get a bad go from the umps.

PS the Murphy, Moore and Johnson decisions in the last Q Sun were howlers, but we won and if Adelaide had taken a few of their early easy set shots in the first half , we likely lose. Lady luck shined on us on Sunday overall.
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Agree totally with all of that. The moral of the story is keep screaming for frees and abusing umpires.
 

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NOw
Gone Critical said:
Which, if crowd on your side does help and I think there is evidence it does, it may explain why we do so well in free kick stats. For a positive conspiracy that the fix is in by the AFL to give their darling, Collingwood, umpiring benefits these numbers are suspicious.

Rankings for the last 10 full seasons in frees for and frees against per game. Collingwoods position in the AFL

Frees Against

2022 16th
2021 14th
2020 18th
2019 17th
2018 17th
2017 18th
2016 10th
2015 17th
2014 13th
2013 18th

Frees For

2022 7th
2021 17th
2020 3rd
2019 4th
2018 3rd
2017 14th
2016 4th
2015 7th
2014 17th
2013 15th

Now while I am not one to get worried too much by the umps, especially in the last 2 games where we win, any oppo supporter who had a conspiracy zeal could go to town on the above as absolute evidence the AFL were cheating in Collingwoods favour.

6 seasons in the last 10 where our average was either last or 2nd last for FA and in the same 10 season finished top 4 four times in FF average and 6 in the top 8. Its pretty laughable people think we get a bad go from the umps.

PS the Murphy, Moore and Johnson decisions in the last Q Sun were howlers, but we won and if Adelaide had taken a few of their early easy set shots in the first half , we likely lose. Lady luck shined on us on Sunday overall.
Click to expand...
None of those figures mean a thing without context.

Post the figures of frees that were not there, which turned games. Which cost games.
Obvious frees which were not paid, which turned games and cost games. Which cost flags.



This use of averages is exactly why umps pay pointless frees late in games, pay frees after the ball has left the area and bring the ball back.

It is no way near as simple as you got more frees than them.
 
Wearmouth said:
What I have been noticing is when and where the frees paid against impact our game. The center bounce free. And the quick transitioning free.

When a game is allowed it’s natural flow and only the obvious frees are paid. We run rampant on the opposition. They can’t contain us.

But when you get the breaks and stops that occur when umpires are just blowing their whistles. It affects out transitioning and we get caught out of position and get turned over. The opposition tends to score out the back because our defensive lines have been exposed and over committed.

They did this to us in the QF against the Handbaggers last year. And the Swine in the PF. It’s game stifling for us when frees are just paid overzealously. It creates confusions and pulls our zones out of whack.


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You lost me when you suggested they stopped the game and thus disadvantaged us in that cats final. I think the whistle boy forget to take them to that game.
 
Pie eyed said:
NOw

None of those figures mean a thing without context.

Post the figures of frees that were not there, which turned games. Which cost games.
Obvious frees which were not paid, which turned games and cost games. Which cost flags.



This use of averages is exactly why umps pay pointless frees late in games, pay frees after the ball has left the area and bring the ball back.

It is no way near as simple as you got more frees than them.
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Absolutely agree they mean nothing. All the conspiracy theories mean nothing. The umpires and AFL are not manipulating the comp by how they umpire.

They do make mistakes at times. Like the howlers in the last Q Sunday.
Overall they do a very good job
 
Markfs said:
i've always thought that the most worrying thing about umpiring is that home teams tend to get more free kicks.....umpires cant isolate themselves from the pressure from the crowd..
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That is the case in all sports.

The unconscious bias, and umpiring edge, is the big factor in home ground advantage.

Umpires are human, they make mistakes.

They also have a different view from what most TV watchers (and fans at the game) may have.

If they dont see something, it isnt "cheating"...they just cant pay it.

What I think has happened is that by adding 4 it just in general creates more uncertainty and inconsistency.

Do all umps when 100m off the ball and not in control have the courage to blow the whistle and over-rule a controlling umpire?

With 4 people now having to interpret judgemental decision like incorrect disposal, you are bound to have more ingame inconsistency.

They should completely overhaul the approach, and it is less officials instead of more that needs to be the main focus.
 
doppleganger said:
That is the case in all sports.

The unconscious bias, and umpiring edge, is the big factor in home ground advantage.

Umpires are human, they make mistakes.

They also have a different view from what most TV watchers (and fans at the game) may have.

If they dont see something, it isnt "cheating"...they just cant pay it.

What I think has happened is that by adding 4 it just in general creates more uncertainty and inconsistency.

Do all umps when 100m off the ball and not in control have the courage to blow the whistle and over-rule a controlling umpire?

With 4 people now having to interpret judgemental decision like incorrect disposal, you are bound to have more ingame inconsistency.

They should completely overhaul the approach, and it is less officials instead of more that needs to be the main focus.
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if an umpire is making a decision 100 metres away then he is past the centre circle and almost at the far edge of the centre square...... that isnt happening. I saw an incident described on first crack (i think) where they were talking about an umpire 50 metres away making a decision instead of the one close-by....and in fact, the controlling umpire was about the same distance from the action as the other umpire but on different sides of the pack.....

so the point that i'm making is that the second umpire who jumps in over the controling umpire might have a good view....and their close proximity is occurring because there are now 4 umpires and probably too many in some situations..
 
Pie eyed said:
NOw

None of those figures mean a thing without context.

Post the figures of frees that were not there, which turned games. Which cost games.
Obvious frees which were not paid, which turned games and cost games. Which cost flags.



This use of averages is exactly why umps pay pointless frees late in games, pay frees after the ball has left the area and bring the ball back.

It is no way near as simple as you got more frees than them.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more gift crucial free kicks and 50mtrs to team A for 3 quarters then give 15 pointless frees in the last to team B and VIOLA!
 
I can't see a way of improving this, but has anyone else noticed that Jordan De Goey is very harshly treated by umpires. They clearly don't like him, so whenever he is caught, he is pinged for holing the ball, he is held on to and impeded regularly with impunity, and his tackles are never rewarded. The two "deliberates" at the weekend exemplified it. Other players that operate in a similar fashion (Martin and Dangerfield) are far more kindly treated. His tackle busting style will always see him caught and penalized, and fair enough when he is caught, but he is always on the negative side of the judgements.

Something that probably will have to occur is a reversion to the old (very old) interpretation of holding the ball, where as soon as a player is impeded in a tackle, he must dispose of the ball legally or be free kicked. This is the only way I can see an end to the sling and dump tackles that so endanger the head, without introducing a drop the knees tackle that leads to leg damage. If the free kicks are paid, the need for the dangerous tackles will vanish, and a cleaner, more open game will ensue.
 
Gaspard said:
I can't see a way of improving this, but has anyone else noticed that Jordan De Goey is very harshly treated by umpires. They clearly don't like him, so whenever he is caught, he is pinged for holing the ball, he is held on to and impeded regularly with impunity, and his tackles are never rewarded. The two "deliberates" at the weekend exemplified it. Other players that operate in a similar fashion (Martin and Dangerfield) are far more kindly treated. His tackle busting style will always see him caught and penalized, and fair enough when he is caught, but he is always on the negative side of the judgements.

Something that probably will have to occur is a reversion to the old (very old) interpretation of holding the ball, where as soon as a player is impeded in a tackle, he must dispose of the ball legally or be free kicked. This is the only way I can see an end to the sling and dump tackles that so endanger the head, without introducing a drop the knees tackle that leads to leg damage. If the free kicks are paid, the need for the dangerous tackles will vanish, and a cleaner, more open game will ensue.
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I think this is 100% correct. The incidence of sling tackles and head-to-ground contact was very low under those old rules.
There is also a separate point about how well the prior opportunity rule really serves the game. It clearly encourages speed in the game, but at the cost of quality. Philosophically, why punish a player for spurning the first opportunity in order to identify a better one? Why reward the tackler rather than the ball player?
Let the ball player make the play. If he is tackled and can’t evade it, require him to dispose of the ball legally. If he can, play on. If he can’t, free kick.
 
Just had a look at the main board with a thread on the umpiring of the Pies Crows game. A Carlton supporter put up a clip of Elliot getting face slammed in round 2 against Port.

Guess who called “ play on”? Our mate number 19. Luckily his offsider blew the whistle
 

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Capital Magpie said:
AFL Umpire Simon Meredith spoke at length about the umpiring errors in the Crows v Magpies match last weekend. Some interesting insights into how the "yellow maggots" go about it ;)



AFL umpire admits he reviewed Pies/Crows decisions “very heavily” <AFL umpire admits he reviewed Pies/Crows decisions “very heavily”>
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It's not the umpires I have an issue with but the framework in which they operate.

Far too much interference from the AFL with half time invasions of the umpires room for 'clarification'.

It's bad enough the AFL change rules and the application of rules in this heavily officiated game but having them changed on the fly and on the day half way through games is utterly ludicrous.
 
jonbe54 said:
It's not the umpires I have an issue with but the framework in which they operate.

Far too much interference from the AFL with half time invasions of the umpires room for 'clarification'.

It's bad enough the AFL change rules and the application of rules in this heavily officiated game but having them changed on the fly and on the day half way through games is utterly ludicrous.
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"Cmon boys, you are a bit behind at half time. I wanna see some effort. Who is going to give me the first holding the ball of the second half?"

Think that's how it goes?
 
“You can’t make it up… because the worst thing you can do it guess and it's not high and then the world collapses.

“So unfortunately it was just one we got wrong.
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Interesting perspective. Apparently paying a high contact free kick, if it was not deserved, causes the world to collapse… and yet that free was paid against Darcy Moore which clearly wasn’t there, and the world hasn’t collapsed.

But anyway apparently paying a free kick that wasn’t there is worse than overlooking a player having to backtrack and scramble around on the ground, looking for his head in the goalsquare.
 
ElliottsMaggies said:
When Gerard Whately speaks so passionately about poor umpiring, you know it's bad. Wonder if the memo was sent to the media as well...

Umpires questioned for “alarmingly terrible” calls in Crows/Pies thriller

“That's just totally unacceptable.”
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au
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I have to admit heavy bias as we all must but FMD the three incidents he covers are cut and dried 100% WRONG - every day of the week!

But look a little closer . . .

After Murphy collected the high contact and was laying stunned on the ground with blood pouring out of his nose they weren't content with not paying a clear free kick but simply called play on. This puts Murf at potentially serious risk which is a mind numbing concept to grasp.

Further than that De Goo is penalized for soccering the ball clear of the medico's struggling to get Murf off through the mess of players created by the morons refusing to blow time on to get Murf off.

These two linked decisions are simply UNACCEPTABLE and a stand needs to be made.

Where is the outrage from the players union?

Where is the leadership from the AFL in protecting the players?
 
jonbe54 said:
I have to admit heavy bias as we all must but FMD the three incidents he covers are cut and dried 100% WRONG - every day of the week!

But look a little closer . . .

After Murphy collected the high contact and was laying stunned on the ground with blood pouring out of his nose they weren't content with not paying a clear free kick but simply called play on. This puts Murf at potentially serious risk which is a mind numbing concept to grasp.

Further than that De Goo is penalized for soccering the ball clear of the medico's struggling to get Murf off through the mess of players created by the morons refusing to blow time on to get Murf off.

These two linked decisions are simply UNACCEPTABLE and a stand needs to be made.

Where is the outrage from the players union?

Where is the leadership from the AFL in protecting the players?
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Agree 100%. Dangerfield? He's useless as the AFLPA President.
 
jonbe54 said:
He has demonstrated bias against Pies if you remember back to last year and his DISGRACEFUL publicly released comments re Ginni.
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I absolutely do remember those comments. Not surprised he'd say something like that as a person and a Cat's player...but completely unforgivable given the position he holds.
 
I’m not too sure whether this happens now or not. But the AFL stooges need to put together umpire groups and keep them together all year. Having this type of continuity will only help to have the Scumps getting use to each others interpretations and might end up developing synchronicity with their decision making.

This will help them discuss their decisions and also critique each other. And hopefully become better as a collective.

What is happening at the moment isn’t working. The decision making is deplorable.

Last week we had a kicking in danger paid against us. This week I watched Anderson from GC, run into open goal after kicking the ball off the ground while a Dreamons player had his hands near the ball. Not seeing it is inexcusable as it was in open play.


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