Where to for england?

[Pollywaffle]

Stokes patched their deficiencies for the last few series, but they lack a genuine quick 140+ bowler and a decent spinner.
Can't win games with a toothless attack.
County system still favours 'dibbly dobbly' bowling and wins at home with duke ball and doctored pitches patch over the cracks
Need fundamental changes in their whole system.
Making Aussies look much better than they are....

 

[Moody Blue]

Stokes patched their deficiencies for the last few series, but they lack a genuine quick 140+ bowler and a decent spinner.
Can't win games with a toothless attack.
County system still favours 'dibbly dobbly' bowling and wins at home with duke ball and doctored pitches patch over the cracks
Need fundamental changes in their whole system.
Making Aussies look much better than they are....

Moen Ali would struggle to get a game in a Shield team. The Poms have a young leggie, and they should give him an opportunity.
They need a huge clean out starting with Cook, Ali and Woakes. Broad is giving nothing, and Anderson gave his all but is not suited to Australian conditions.
If Stokes had played this series would much closer. The Poms walk a foot taller when Stokes is in the team.

 

[PhatBoy]

Stokes patched their deficiencies for the last few series, but they lack a genuine quick 140+ bowler and a decent spinner.
Can't win games with a toothless attack.
County system still favours 'dibbly dobbly' bowling and wins at home with duke ball and doctored pitches patch over the cracks
Need fundamental changes in their whole system.
Making Aussies look much better than they are....

‘Doctored’ = same as they’ve been for, ooh, 140 years now.

 

[PhatBoy]

Moen Ali would struggle to get a game in a Shield team. The Poms have a young leggie, and they should give him an opportunity.
They need a huge clean out starting with Cook, Ali and Woakes. Broad is giving nothing, and Anderson gave his all but is not suited to Australian conditions.
If Stokes had played this series would much closer. The Poms walk a foot taller when Stokes is in the team.

I know he’s shown absolutely none of it in this series but Ali has the potential to be a genuinely good contributor.

A frontline spinner he is not - you won’t get an argument from me there.
However he has been tried in every position from 1-9 in the batting order. That does not help anyone.
He’s hit centuries at 4,5 and 7. He averages 54 at 7, his most regular (26 out of 81 innings) position.
Before this series his averages were in the 30s both home and away with the bat.
Give him a steady spot, and a steady modus operandi where he’s not stonewalling one innings and having a thrash the next, and he will be a strong player.

He is a player who is easily good enough to command a spot in the side - what he needs, though, is for that spot to be at a fixed location in the batting order, and not as a first choice spinner.

If I were england going forward, assuming hypothetically that Cook doesn’t regain form.

I’d have
Vince
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Stokes
Ali
3 quicks/1 spinner.


There’s no point sticking to a ‘6 bats, keeper, 4 bowlers’ formula if you just don’t have them. And given the first class records of their new batsmen, they don’t. So you fill the gaps as you can.

Ok, you won’t have this great bowling quartet but you will have an alternative pace bowling option who can bowl genuinely match winning spells, and an off spinner who can at least do a job.
You will also have a better 6/7 than many sides.

 

[Scotland]

Surely at 3-0 you make some changes.

In 2013/14 Stokes debuted in the second test after Trott went home, then Ballance, Borthwick and Rankin debuted in the 5th test.

You'd think Mason Crane would get a run. Moeen Ali hasn't looked threatening and has a finger injury.

 

[Gough]

The upside for England is they're not a million miles away from being a competitive team. Malan, Vince and Bairstow all look good, Stoneman has promise and Root is a known quality. Their bowling seems to be the problem area, and was the real difference between the two sides here.

 

[freddy mercury]

Broad has taken 2/217 in two tests. If he was an Australian he wouldn’t be playing Boxing Day. Surely they’ve gotta swing the axe. The series is gone, they’ve gotta try something different.

 

[Scotland]

Problem is the fast bowling cupboard is pretty bare, and the reason they keep picking mid 130s bowlers is that's what County cricket produces.

Finn is injured, and they already replaced Ball with Overton. They have Tom Curran in the squad and that's it.

Is there anyone in the Big Bash they could call up out of nowhere? Jordan? Mills? Willey?

There would be a handful of Aussies in the BBL who are faster than anyone in the England test squad.

 

[Pollywaffle]

There would be a handful of Aussies in the BBL who are faster than anyone in the England test squad.

There would be plenty of grade cricketers who could claim that too...

 

[JimDocker]

I watched the Scorchers v England Lions last week.

Wood can bowl at a decent pace, but he did not look like the answer to England's problems. Mitchell Johnson and Richardson for the Scorchers both looked more menacing than he was. David Willey is an interesting one. His bowling is certainly not express, but he is an aggressive player with bat and ball and may be the X factor that England are looking for. He can perform at international level.

England simply don't have any secret weapon in their locker. Australia have 4 world class bowlers at their peak and England have 2 world class bowlers well past their best. On these wickets, that counts for everything.

 

[Scotland]

There would be plenty of grade cricketers who could claim that too...

And half of BigFooty.

 

[frankrizzo]

Issue with Ali is England really can get away with him as the first choice spinner at home but on some tours he will be exposed and create an unbalanced team.

They have to decide whether they do horses for courses and use Ali as a back up on some tours while keeping him as the spinner at home or whether they bite the bullet and a actually pick a frontline spinner during the home summer as well even though that might mean less pace or batting.

All about how big an issue the ecb feel these away losses are, are they willing to try things next summer or do they just want to make sure they thump the Asian sides at home?

 

[Hellgood]

Problem is the fast bowling cupboard is pretty bare, and the reason they keep picking mid 130s bowlers is that's what County cricket produces.

Finn is injured, and they already replaced Ball with Overton. They have Tom Curran in the squad and that's it.

Is there anyone in the Big Bash they could call up out of nowhere? Jordan? Mills? Willey?

There would be a handful of Aussies in the BBL who are faster than anyone in the England test squad.

Jordan He bowls as flat military medium as you can possibly get. Mills hasn't played a first class game in god knows how long and never will do again - he's on the T20 circuit. Willey's a medium-fast swing bowler who is far more suited to the shorter formats (plays very little first class games, only when Yorkshire are missing a few).

Plunkett was the gamble they should have gone in my opinion. Not especially durable, but has the pace, bounce, quality and experience to have made an impact in Australia.

Other than the much talked about Wood, there isn't many realistic options for sharp pacers. Footit would have been an out there selection, maybe could have been a good call as a point of difference but his action is pretty wacky, bowls plenty of four balls and just can't see him bowling spells of sustained pressure to quality batsmen. The Curran boys are sharp, but short and rely more on movement through the air. Will be good to see them develop, but I don't think that Tom would've been a justifiable call ahead of Broad prior to the series starting (maybe now given the Ashes are gone). Garton has a fair bit of Behrendorff about him, but again is raw and took a lot of stick out here from the Australian representative XI for the Lions recently.

 

[Underdog]

I'd be dropping Ali and Broad at a minimum. The replacements mightn't look to offer much more, but these guys have offered nothing.

 

[workhorse]

Although the English batting stats look bleak, like many others I think it's their bowling that has been so, so poor. Anderson (12 wickets @ 25.83) had a poor first test but was much better in Adelaide and Perth. Overton (6 wickets @ 37.67) deserves the rest of the summer but with a cracked rib he's likely to miss Melbourne (at least). Woakes (7 wickets at 51.57) has looked absolutely pedestrian and Broad (5 wickets at 61.80) looks completely cooked (2 wickets since the first innings at Brisbane....)

Overton will most likely miss Melbourne and I think one of Woakes and Broad should go, too. Bring in Wood? His stats coming back from injury in the Lions vs CA XI weren't exactly impressive. People think the extra pace will help but personally I think just pace alone will only allow guys like Warner, Khawaja and Smith to score even easier - can't remember if Wood moves it in the air or off the deck at all. The other bowlers in the squad are Jake Ball, Steven Finn and George Garton. Finn has an ok test record, but he's very ho-hum and similar to Broad/Woakes. Garton is interesting. Only 9 FC matches, 20 years old but I know nothing about him other than that he's a leftie. Could offer some actual variation. Ali has to go, in my opinion. Been completely unthreatening as a spin bowler. I'm not sure Crane is the answer, but like Garton could be worth throwing him in and seeing what he's got.

Batting wise it's actually been the experienced Cook (averaging 13), Root (averaging 29) and Ali (averaging 19) that have been the real letdowns. Malan and Bairstow have been good. Stoneman and Vince solid without making big scores. It's a tough one as I think it would take a massive decision to drop Cook. He's an all time great of England. Root is obviously not going anywhere so, again I think its Ali. Instead of Ballance I'd bring it Foakes and promote Bairstow to 5 as a specialist bat. Foakes can't be any worse than Ali right now.

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Vince
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Malan
7. Foakes
8. Broad
9. Crane/Wood/Garton
10. Crane/Wood/Garton
11. Anderson

potentially 3 debutants in that team which doesn't look too threatening but maybe it's what they need.

 

[PhatBoy]

Although the English batting stats look bleak, like many others I think it's their bowling that has been so, so poor. Anderson (12 wickets @ 25.83) had a poor first test but was much better in Adelaide and Perth. Overton (6 wickets @ 37.67) deserves the rest of the summer but with a cracked rib he's likely to miss Melbourne (at least). Woakes (7 wickets at 51.57) has looked absolutely pedestrian and Broad (5 wickets at 61.80) looks completely cooked (2 wickets since the first innings at Brisbane....)

Overton will most likely miss Melbourne and I think one of Woakes and Broad should go, too. Bring in Wood? His stats coming back from injury in the Lions vs CA XI weren't exactly impressive. People think the extra pace will help but personally I think just pace alone will only allow guys like Warner, Khawaja and Smith to score even easier - can't remember if Wood moves it in the air or off the deck at all. The other bowlers in the squad are Jake Ball, Steven Finn and George Garton. Finn has an ok test record, but he's very ho-hum and similar to Broad/Woakes. Garton is interesting. Only 9 FC matches, 20 years old but I know nothing about him other than that he's a leftie. Could offer some actual variation. Ali has to go, in my opinion. Been completely unthreatening as a spin bowler. I'm not sure Crane is the answer, but like Garton could be worth throwing him in and seeing what he's got.

Batting wise it's actually been the experienced Cook (averaging 13), Root (averaging 29) and Ali (averaging 19) that have been the real letdowns. Malan and Bairstow have been good. Stoneman and Vince solid without making big scores. It's a tough one as I think it would take a massive decision to drop Cook. He's an all time great of England. Root is obviously not going anywhere so, again I think its Ali. Instead of Ballance I'd bring it Foakes and promote Bairstow to 5 as a specialist bat. Foakes can't be any worse than Ali right now.

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Vince
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Malan
7. Foakes
8. Broad
9. Crane/Wood/Garton
10. Crane/Wood/Garton
11. Anderson

potentially 3 debutants in that team which doesn't look too threatening but maybe it's what they need.

I will say one thing in Broad’s defence. At Adelaide on the first afternoon/evening and during Australia’s second innings capitulation he bowled two spells that could have easily reaped a lot of wickets. As it happened Anderson and Woakes reaped the rewards in the second dig.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Anderson has cashed in a lot when the horse has bolted. Reckon he's been poor as well.

 

[frankrizzo]

He hasn't been poor but i agree his figures do flatter him, when the game was really up for grabs in the last two tests he didn't look that dangerous, he did at least keep it tight which is his biggest improvement from the old days where he just used to get thumped at 4+ an over on flatter decks.

 

[Bigtrev41]

Moen Ali would struggle to get a game in a Shield team. The Poms have a young leggie, and they should give him an opportunity.
They need a huge clean out starting with Cook, Ali and Woakes. Broad is giving nothing, and Anderson gave his all but is not suited to Australian conditions.
If Stokes had played this series would much closer. The Poms walk a foot taller when Stokes is in the team.

Mason Crane should not be playing County cricket, let alone getting near a national line up - he is TERRIBLE.

 

[PhatBoy]

Anderson has cashed in a lot when the horse has bolted. Reckon he's been poor as well.

Perhaps. But he’s also looked the most likely when the game is still up for grabs.

You’d battle to find evidence that he hasn’t bowled a good opening spell yet. Just not as penetrative as what his opponents have been producing.


It’s worth remembering that none of the intangible stuff has happened for england. They haven’t had players taking miracle catches or getting marginal dismissals etc.


Don’t misconstrue that as saying Australia has been lucky - I’m not saying that at all. But teams do sometimes tend to get into ruts where everything starts to go for/against them.

Take the fielding for example. Stoneman gifts a sitter of a catch to Marsh and it gets dropped. Costs them nothing. A horribly out of form but still perfect for the scenario Cook slightly mistimes a bunt back towards the stumps and Hazlewood plucks a remarkable catch. In hindsight England would have preferred Stoneman to get caught the first time and trade that for Cook getting another go at batting time in the second dig.
Starc and Lyon have also taken caught and bowleds that had no right to be caught. There’s been a couple of strangles down legside, and the Ali decision in Brisbane (which I’m not saying was wrong by the way, but it was slightly unlucky).

When things are running hot for you, none of that stuff happens. Gloves and tickles down leg side go for four. Return catches that look impossible, stay impossible and get put down. Chances are cashed in and players make use of them.

But at the end of the day you have to be good enough to keep creating them and making them happen, and Australia have done that.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Anderson has cashed in a lot when the horse has bolted. Reckon he's been poor as well.

Yep.

Ineffective in Brisbane.
Had that great spell in Adelaide.
Got cheap tonking wickets in Perth. When the chips were down in Perth he and Broad had 0 wickets after a combined 60 overs.

I wouldn’t give him a pass.

 

[Yoda_]

Moen Ali would struggle to get a game in a Shield team. The Poms have a young leggie, and they should give him an opportunity.
They need a huge clean out starting with Cook, Ali and Woakes. Broad is giving nothing, and Anderson gave his all but is not suited to Australian conditions.
If Stokes had played this series would much closer. The Poms walk a foot taller when Stokes is in the team.

Ali has been quite good for them in the past 24 months. His finger injury has limited his impacted his output more than I thought. When going he has been a handy enough all - rounder. My doubt is him being a "front line" spinner. Mason Crane should be getting a debut sooner than later.


Have to agree (re: elder statesman). Broad (73 wickets @ 52), Cook (1,925 runs @39.28), Woakes (50 wickets @ 30/665 runs @ 28.9) have been poor throughout 2016/17.

Anderson, despite his woes in Australia has been a war horse across this time averaging less than 20 with over 90 wickets.


Biggest issue for mine is the lack of weapons this English side has. Very much the same. From the batsmen to the bowling. Nothing with a real point of difference.


Anyways, I would like to see the English turn to young Crane for boxing day, even if it isn't conducive to spin, try him. Drop Stuart Broad for Mark Wood. Give them something different for Boxing day.

My English XI for Boxing day would be;

1. Alistair Cook - when going he is brilliant. Unfortunately the cupboard is bare so gets another opportunity in what may be his final Ashes campaign.
2. Mark Stoneman - Like the look of the guy. Needs to convert those starts (3 - 50's) into big scores. Seems he has struggled to do so at FC level (48 - 50's/21 - 100's).
3. James Vince - Has some talent, hopefully a long term middle order solution for the Poms.
4. Joe Root (captain) - Sometimes you just don't have good tours, he is on one of those. Brilliant when going.
5. Dawid Malan - After his brilliant century, should be locked in for this spot for some time.
6. Johnny Bairstow - One of the only blokes on this tour with some fight in him.
7. Moen Ali - Despite wanting wholesale changes, feel Moen gives them versatility with both bat and ball.
8. Craig Overton - Showed some fight with bat and grit with ball. Injury is most likely going to prevent this selection.
9. Mason Crane - Young legspinner finally gets his opportunity.
10. Mark Wood - English quick who will give us some grief.
11. James Anderson - Still one of the worlds best when he is up and going. Seen very little on this tour.

Biggest selection dilemma will be the all rounder spot. Feel Ali has been better served in this ashes but his bowling has been quite poor and with the inclusion of the young leggie may want that 4th fast bowling option so Chris Woakes could get the nod.

 

[eth-dog]

It would be so typically English to go with the same top 7 despite it failing to reach 300 4/6 times in a series.

 

[footyfan1978]

Ali should have been dropped last match. ******* joke he stayed in. Been bunny to Nathan Lyon all series so useless to batting order and bowling he is not a good enough spinner to be picked game after game on that alone.
Cook should honestly retire, here and now. Let Vince open and find another batsman for the middle order.

 

[PhatBoy]

Ali should have been dropped last match. ******* joke he stayed in. Been bunny to Nathan Lyon all series so useless to batting order and bowling he is not a good enough spinner to be picked game after game on that alone.
Cook should honestly retire, here and now. Let Vince open and find another batsman for the middle order.

If every batsman retired whenever they have a lean patch in their early 30s, then virtually none of the game’s enduring greats would have played some of their best cricket