Review Bad/Ugly vs Fremantle, R5 2020

[BRL121]

I just think David Mundy is an incredible footballer regardless of his height. Criminally underrated by the AFL

He's been the best Mid on the field against us on many many occasions!

Unless my mind is disturbed by despair, it seemed in his last-quarter clearances that he was just running around by himself! On one occasion the ball was miles away from him, yet he just ran to it, completely unmolested.

 

[DJ75]

His height had little to do with it. He played in front, read the tap better and got to the ball first. Simple as that.

I think there was only one occasion he pushed Brad off the ball, with itself isn't good enough given Brad's experience

I'd be interested to watch those centre bounces and see who Mundy lined up against on each of those occasions.
The first two of the last quarter were directly opposed to Brad. On both occasions ROB won the tap and hit it straight to Brad. Mundy ended up with the clearance though...

 

[BRL121]

These are the average center bounce and center clearance stats for the year so far

Matt Crouch - 13.75 center bounce attendances (1.5 center clearances)
Ben Keays - 12.5 (0.25)
Brad Crouch - 12.2 (1.6)
Rory Sloane - 10.4 (1.6)
Paul Seedsman - 6.3 (0.33)
Chayce Jones - 5.8 (0.4)
Rory Atkins - 5.0 (0.33)
Brodie Smith - 5.0 (0)
Myles Poholke - 4.5 (0)
Ned McHenry - 1.25 (0.25)

Center bounces in R5

Matt + Brad + Keays - repeat stoppage
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Brad (free kick advantage)
Matt + Keays + Poholke - repeat stoppage
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Mundy
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Brad
Matt + Smith + Poholke - clearance to Mundy (Matt gets first touch)
Matt + Brad + Keays - repeat stoppage
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Keays (holding the ball free)
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to O'Brien (Walters gets first touch)
Matt + Keays + Jones - clearance to Walters (high free)
Brad + Keays + Jones - clearance to Mundy
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Mundy
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Mundy
Brad + Keays + Jones - clearance to Brad
Matt + Brad + Keays - clearance to Mundy

What I'd love to know is why, despite losing the center clearance stat in every single game we've played this year, we have persisted with such shithouse combinations.

We had a Matt + Brad + Keays combination at 10 center bounces and won a grand total of 4 clearances, 2 repeat stoppages and 4 opposition clearances (all to Mundy, mostly playing directly off a Crouch). On two of the 4 winning clearance occasions Fremantle actually got the ball first, one time we won a free, the other time Walters fumbled.

For the entire time at center bounce we won 3 clearances with first touch of the ball. Fremantle won a clearance with first touch on 6 occasions

The stats show mind boggling favoritism for Brad, Matt and Keays. Matt attended 13 center bounces for 0 clearances; Keays 14 for 1 clearance. Matt effectively replaced Sloane (4 center clearances last week) and returned the favor with 0 CCs

Jones is our fourth most prolific center clearance winner yet he has featured in less than half the center bounces of the Crouch brothers. Keays is a worse center bounce player than Jones yet we preferred him. McHenry and Poholke have barely got a look in

This analysis ignores the fact that Keays spent a lot of time, certainly in the last two weeks, tagging his opponents. Of course, this does not prohibit him getting a clearance, but may have been a secondary focus.

 

[Betts are off]

I'm actually not as down on Brad's game as I am on the Coaches for putting Brad back into the midfield with Matt. I thought Brad played with good intent and a hunger for the footy yesterday.

But as much as I like them as individual players, they read the ball far too similarly and run to the same spot. Our midfield feels so much more congested when they are in there together, and the quality of the few clearances we do win is so poor that our forwards are almost never advantaged, or in a high % goal scoring position.

Opposition midfield coaches must love playing us, because we literally get in our own way

 

[I Lost My Keays]

Worth mentioning (think it gets forgotten) he was pick 24 in 2015 draft and would have been 18-20 range if not for the academy bidding. There is a player in there.

I can’t remember if we had a bid on him?

 

[Betts are off]

Unless my mind is disturbed by despair, it seemed in his last-quarter clearances that he was just running around by himself! On one occasion the ball was miles away from him, yet he just ran to it, completely unmolested.

No you saw it correctly, running around like an unregistered dog.

I feel like he's been doing that too us for 15 years... Which, he probably has!

 

[ltdamn]

Dude, you started off saying the Crouches had good games, then defended that by saying "who would replace them?". Here's a stat for you - we lost to the equal bottom team, comfortably. A team missing its primary midfielder.

They got stats because they were around the ball. What they did with the majority of those stats was far less effective than their opposition. They both had ineffective games and were one of the main reasons we lost.

They did have good games, and I asked who would replace them as everyone else wanted them on the chopping block, as the arguments I was receiving just went around in circles - and still do. All I have received so far is a token suggestion of Poholke and a reminder that Jones played a good part of a quarter last week but no options to replace the output the Crouch brothers generated.

If you think our midfield depth and Fremantle's are on par with each other after their recent drafting history, I would welcome your player v player analysis of their depth against ours, with specific interest on how you think Patrick Wilson, Jordan Galluci and Rory Atkins would fare in their team.

We lost today not because of the Crouches bit in spite of them. We were appalling at converting our entries into the F50 into goals. Had we been even semi-efficient at retaining the ball in that zone, let alone actually converting more than 4 times, who knows how that game pans out if we're actually ahead for most of it, despite the glaring flaws in our structure and obvious issues with our list quality that would see us lose by 100+ to a top 4 side.

It's a simple point that no one seems to understand in their haste to hang both Crouches so I will say it again - our list of AFL players is not as good as anyone else's list in the AFL. The overall quality of our list, when compared to the other teams in the league, is not only worse, but obviously so, and particularly in midfielders. We have some good ones, of which the Crouch brothers are amongst the better of but people blame them for our form simply because they have so much of the ball and spend so much time in the middle - because the he rest of our midfield options consist of sub-standard players who would struggle to be on another list, offcasts from other clubs, or Bryce Gibbs.

 

[Betts are off]

Worth mentioning (think it gets forgotten) he was pick 24 in 2015 draft and would have been 18-20 range if not for the academy bidding. There is a player in there.

I'd be very surprised if he doesn't play every game for us this year.

He started a bit wild, but i'm looking forward to seeing how he looks in the last 3rd of the season. It wouldn't surprise me if continuity in his game will see him really put it together towards the end.

Not as sold on Crocker

 

[feenix67]

They did have good games, and I asked who would replace them as everyone else wanted them on the chopping block, as the arguments I was receiving just went around in circles - and still do. All I have received so far is a token suggestion of Poholke and a reminder that Jones played a good part of a quarter last week but no options to replace the output the Crouch brothers generated.

If you think our midfield depth and Fremantle's are on par with each other after their recent drafting history, I would welcome your player v player analysis of their depth against ours, with specific interest on how you think Patrick Wilson, Jordan Galluci and Rory Atkins would fare in their team.

We lost today not because of the Crouches bit in spite of them. We were appalling at converting our entries into the F50 into goals. Had we been even semi-efficient at retaining the ball in that zone, let alone actually converting more than 4 times, who knows how that game pans out if we're actually ahead for most of it, despite the glaring flaws in our structure and obvious issues with our list quality that would see us lose by 100+ to a top 4 side.

It's a simple point that no one seems to understand in their haste to hang both Crouches so I will say it again - our list of AFL players is not as good as anyone else's list in the AFL. The overall quality of our list, when compared to the other teams in the league, is not only worse, but obviously so, and particularly in midfielders. We have some good ones, of which the Crouch brothers are amongst the better of but people blame them for our form simply because they have so much of the ball and spend so much time in the middle - because the he rest of our midfield options consist of sub-standard players who would struggle to be on another list, offcasts from other clubs, or Bryce Gibbs.

Conversion probably cost us the game, or at least an even money chance at winning it. But it's just disingenuous to defend the Crouches by saying they are the best of a bad list. Both are ex BnF's for our club, one an ex AA. Right now they are ineffective. Particularly Matt, who is in the team by virtue of the selector's inability to select on form and aversion to playing kids in their correct roles.

 

[Scorpus]

Why are we persisting with Matt and Brad in there?

Because when you look at the stats you provided, they (+Sloane) have the greatest percentage of clearances to CBA ratio of all players. That suggests they are our best CBA players...according to your stats.

If it's not uo to scratch, you need to look to the coach of that area.

Then when you realise who it is, you need to look at why we don't have an experienced AFL coach on that line...and that leads to the administration.

The stats are a little misleading in that way. We only ever have one dominant CC player.

R1 combos: Sloane + Matt or Brad + other

Result: Lost CCs 5-20, Sloane 3, Brad 2

----

R2 combos: Brad + Matt + Sloane or Smith or other

Result: Lost CCS 10-12, Matt 4, Brad 2, others 4

----

R3 combos: Heavy rotation, primarily Brad and Matt

Result: Lost CCs 5-12, Matt 2, Sloane 1, others 2

----

R4 combos: Sloane + Keays + Brad or others

Result: Lost CCs 7-11, Sloane 4, Brad 1, others 2

----

R5 combos: Keays + Brad + Matt

Result: Lost CCs 5-7, Brad 3, Keays 1, others 1

----

What I think this shows is that Sloane and Matt Crouch can't play in the same center group. With that setup it's either Sloane or Matt getting the clearance, never both.

It also shows we can't play Matt and Brad at the same time, again it's either Brad or Matt getting the clearances in that setup.

Further, it appears as though Keays as a tagger at the center stoppage is also ineffective given we still lost the stat on both occasions he was a primary CC player.

To me it appears the best combination is Sloane + Brad + other. If Matt Crouch is in the center we can't play either Sloane or Brad there, but especially not Sloane.

Despite this, all three primary mids and even Keays are effective stoppage clearance winners, our stoppage clearance stat is usually much closer than center clearances (although we still lost the stat on 4 of 5 occasions)

 

[BlackGun1]

I can’t remember if we had a bid on him?

Think it was spoken about but Bulldogs were the ones who bid in the end.

 

[BlackGun1]

I'd be very surprised if he doesn't play every game for us this year.

He started a bit wild, but i'm looking forward to seeing how he looks in the last 3rd of the season. It wouldn't surprise me if continuity in his game will see him really put it together towards the end.

Not as sold on Crocker

Agreed. Always needed time to settle, and the high footy IQ IMO supercedes the awkwardness of his kicking, meaning he should develop into a reliable ball user.

And agree x 2 - love Crockers aerial ability but just so much of a tweener for me - doesn't seem to have a position that makes sense for his skillset. Not good enough by foot to play wing, bit too skinny to be a lead up forward.

 

[jenny61_99]

Thing is, our other forwards made something of it.

He can't anymore

Our other forwards don't have three players hanging off them.

 

[Thetrader15]

Agreed. Always needed time to settle, and the high footy IQ IMO supercedes the awkwardness of his kicking, meaning he should develop into a reliable ball user.

And agree x 2 - love Crockers aerial ability but just so much of a tweener for me - doesn't seem to have a position that makes sense for his skillset. Not good enough by foot to play wing, bit too skinny to be a lead up forward.

I think Crocker is a small forward, who is handy above his head. Think JDG, Townsend style. He is another role player for us, which is what you get with rookies.

Keays is looking like he has found his role as a tagger. He's been quite effective v Neale and Walters, and great to see him concentrate and run defensively when he is off the ball. I'd like to see us work out how to keep him in the CBAs, as it's so effective to be able to remove an oppos best mid while still winning CBAs

 

[feenix67]

Our other forwards don't have three players hanging off them.

This gets a bit old tbh. He rarely has "three defenders hanging off him" and he's no orphan among key forwards in the AFL who succeed despite heavy pressure. What I will say in his defense, however, is that he is useless played higher up the ground these days and is at his best played deep and leading out. Our forward 50 set ups have been useless since our slingshot days and have not served him well. He just doesn't help people's perception of him by continually going up one handed - there was a classic yesterday where he ended up palming the ball ineffectively where he could have easily marked the ball with two hands. It's a habit he developed after his ACL and he's never addressed it.

Unfortunately for Tex, I think his limitations now see him as the obvious out for Fogarty.

 

[Thetrader15]

Our other forwards don't have three players hanging off them.

Even Mark Bickley pointed that our on radio. Tex is always out numbered, often having to hold off one opponent while trying to leap for the ball which has been delivered way too high.

He's not moving that well, so appears hard to get space, but usually the delivery is that poor it doesn't matter

 

[Sack Chapman]

Riley Thilthorpe from West Adelaide and Kaine Baldwin a must. Both SA boys

I like the sound of Baldwin but you wouldn’t sell the farm to get him. Missing 2 years of football due to knee injuries is not a great start. Maybe a pick around the 30s.

 

[Lach72]

No you saw it correctly, running around like an unregistered dog.

I feel like he's been doing that too us for 15 years... Which, he probably has!

You were unlucky...Dave has been coming back off a broken ankle earlier in the year...he normally takes a few games to get going after a lay off...

You just got Mundied

 

[CrowBloke]

1)... the Crouch brothers are inefficient players that are delivering output below the standard for the top 2 midfielders in an AFL team.
2) ... Poholke precisely cannot contribute more because they are shafted to peripheral roles with the Crouch brothers taking center stage.

1) I agree; it's not just about numerous possessions. They get the ball well and often enough, it's what they do with their possesions ie how they CREATE. Or not.
I watched them both closely in the first three quarters (also focussed on Murphy, Jones, Hamill, Keays, Sloane). One problem not of their own making is the dearth of mobile outside players in good positions to receive from them. They're surrounded by far too many flat-footed teammates.
My impression is that they get the ball, then look around. Ordinarily, you'd think this is not a bad thing but it shows lack of other-player positional awareness. It'd help if they had some idea of where to go/what to do before they get the ball. One thing I loved about Greenwood was his ability to get the ball out to someone in a good position. Often, MnC are blocked and run away from our goal then --- and this is crucial --- they give the ball off to a player who's got company (hospital handball, or dinky kick to a contest) or worse, kick too long/short and straight to an oppo player. A 40m kick forward counts as metres gained, but so many of their disposals come back over their heads.
Their delivery does not create, or open up space, or force a teammate to run into a better or open position.
They also look for each other way too much. I know that'd be a natural response after years of playing together, but it'd be solved easily enough by not playing them together at clearances/bounces.
I'd like to see them run-and-carry and break away from congestion more, which is what the best AFL mids do (think: Dangerfield). The ways that Hamill takes off, evades, and runs with the ball put the Crouches to shame. When Hamill improves his kicking accuracy, he'll be a star.
2) Poholke, Jones, McHenry et al are all being held back, every time Nicks puts the 2 Crouches together at a clearance/stoppage.

 

[SellarStardom]

I subscribe to the Crowcast theory that if you cant win the position you are suited for - you dont get shuffled to an easier spot

I don't disagree but with Matt there is another element.

Matt is a mass accumulator which is ideal at HF and not bad at HB. Winning the pill has been something he has always found easy so why not use it.

Our linkage through HF is a problem and an accumulator would be handy

Has anyone seen reports from the 2nds??

 

[spexau]

I think Brad is showing the right determination but Matt has been dead ordinary. I reckon Pohlke will be the next Jarryd Lyons if we keep playing him like we are.

 

[CrowBloke]

West Coast: Dom Sheed + Elliot Yeo
893 meters gained

Wow.
Some illuminating stats comparisons there, Scorpus .
Do you know approx. how much of those 893m were run-and-carry forward, with bounces on the run?
My impression of the Crouches is they do not run-and-carry, create or open up the play enough, which often results in another stoppage or a turnover.
(I'd like to know how often their disposals find another Crouch, too)

 

[Betts are off]

You were unlucky...Dave has been coming back off a broken ankle earlier in the year...he normally takes a few games to get going after a lay off...

You just got Mundied

Yep, I know the feeling all too well. We get Mundied quite often.

While I have you, would you agree with the sentiment that he's one of the most underrated mids in the AFL? I can't remember watching him ever have a bad game.

 

[Thetrader15]

I like the sound of Baldwin but you wouldn’t sell the farm to get him. Missing 2 years of football due to knee injuries is not a great start. Maybe a pick around the 30s.

Even better if we use the one before Port's first pick

 

[Bovo]

Hamill looks like a future A grader.

Not sure I’d go that far, but he consistently gets to where the ball is and with that mop of hair, you can’t miss him!!