Who will be better in 2023 Richmond or Brisbane?

[Cdog71]

It's a good point re Gunston and his leadership, not something I'd really thought about, but we haven't necessarily had an experienced voice consistently in that part of the ground.

In the midst of everything that's happened this off-season, I do think Hipwood might surprise a few people next year. He only ruptured his ACL in July last year (returned in 10 months) so was slow to get going, but he kicked 9 goals in our 3 finals and was comfortably our most dangerous KPF across the whole finals series.

On the other hand, Daniher was in close to career best form (19 goals from his first 6 games) before he did his shoulder in round 7.

I do think we need at least two of Daniher, Hipwood and Gunston going well to be a serious threat.

Gunston is probably shifty enough to keep his Defender away from them as well

 

[Gavin Excell]

McStay is a very ordinary player

 

[rye]

He won a B&F how?

is this meant to be a counterargument

 

[geelong_crazy26]

St Kilda of that era had one single win in a final v a team with more than 15 home and away season wins. They fell in by a kick with less scoring shots in that game. They won no flags and didn’t prove themselves better than any other team that couldn’t win a Grand Final. They were St Kilda. They were playing Grand Finals against proven Second Division Grand Final clubs. And failed to win.

st kilda was 0.1% more luck away from being B2B premiers, so I am not sure what more a side can do and not win a flag than that saints flag, the poor bastards literally just ran into geelong and that champion collingwood side is the only thing they did wrong. A toe poke and a wayward bounce for Milne is literally the difference between B2B flags. I think many people would put their money on that st kilda side beating Richmond by 6-10 goals in a grand final. They thrived under pressure and having it a scrubby dirty game, and their midfield was much stronger than the Richmond one, and their territory game would have just broken Richmond down.

Let me guess, the mighty Adelaide team is much better from 17 thought who came 12th the year after??

 

[_Mike_]

I'd say Brisbane at the moment

 

[geelong_crazy26]

McStay is a very ordinary player

Surely mcstay was going to be playing reserves with gunston coming in??

 

[Meteoric Rise]

st kilda was 0.1% more luck away from being B2B premiers, so I am not sure what more a side can do and not win a flag than that saints flag, the poor bastards literally just ran into geelong and that champion collingwood side is the only thing they did wrong. A toe poke and a wayward bounce for Milne is literally the difference between B2B flags. I think many people would put their money on that st kilda side beating Richmond by 6-10 goals in a grand final. They thrived under pressure and having it a scrubby dirty game, and their midfield was much stronger than the Richmond one, and their territory game would have just broken Richmond down.

Let me guess, the mighty Adelaide team is much better from 17 thought who came 12th the year after??

GC26, if you wanted to back that moderate top 4 St Kilda 08-11 team over triple Premiership Richmond 2017-2020, you could get plenty on with me.

St Kilda 08-11

Finals wins 5

Finals they did not win 6

Premierships NIL

Notably meritorious finals victories NIL


V Richmond 2017-20

Finals wins 10

Finals they did not win 2

Premierships 3

Notably meritorious finals victories: Beat Minor Premier Adelaide who had smashed their way through 2 lead up finals by 8 goals. Trounced 15.5 win Cats 2017 by 8.3. Trounced 16 win Brisbane in Brisbane by 47 points. Beat Minor Premier Geelong in 2019 running away with a leg in the air. Beat 18 win* Port Adelaide in Adelaide 2020. Just a small selection.

What was the Saints best ever finals win?

Leaving being Fadge to Fadge mate.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It's a good point re Gunston and his leadership, not something I'd really thought about, but we haven't necessarily had an experienced voice consistently in that part of the ground.

In the midst of everything that's happened this off-season, I do think Hipwood might surprise a few people next year. He only ruptured his ACL in July last year (returned in 10 months) so was slow to get going, but he kicked 9 goals in our 3 finals and was comfortably our most dangerous KPF across the whole finals series.

On the other hand, Daniher was in close to career best form (19 goals from his first 6 games) before he did his shoulder in round 7.

I do think we need at least two of Daniher, Hipwood and Gunston going well to be a serious threat.

I think the game is more suited to mobility than traditional sit at home key forwards the way things are going.

If you take geelong and collingwood as examples this year, both game plans relied on similar dynamics, which was ( we had more the luxury than collingwood) but forwards whether big or tall being able to influence the play further up the field and have 12-20 touches and impacting in other ways. It is just too damaging and a liability to have a traditional key forward who is goals or bust in terms of influence. You basically end up with someone who becomes a liability for a big handful of games who cannot do anything unless his on song infront of the big sticks.

Both Hawkins and Cameron work hard all game up and down the field presenting and getting involved in chains.

I have lost count the amount of times Jeremy Cameron is up the field at CHB just linking up for marks and using his left foot to set up play, or the amount of loose ball gets Hawkins gathers 60m out and passes inside fifty. They have made it a focus to have all forwards involved in as many dynamics of the game to create team consistency and performance. I think Brisbane lacks this with hipwood and especially Daniher

 

[geelong_crazy26]

GC26, if you wanted to back that moderate top 4 St Kilda 08-11 team over triple Premiership Richmond 2017-2020, you could get plenty on with me.

St Kilda 08-11

Finals wins 5

Finals they did not win 6

Premierships NIL

Notably meritorious finals victories NIL


V Richmond 2017-20

Finals wins 10

Finals they did not win 2

Premierships 3

Notably meritorious finals victories: Beat Minor Premier Adelaide who had smashed their way through 2 lead up finals by 8 goals. Trounced 15.5 win Cats 2017 by 8.3. Trounced 16 win Brisbane in Brisbane by 47 points. Beat Minor Premier Geelong in 2019 running away with a leg in the air. Beat 18 win* Port Adelaide in Adelaide 2020. Just a small selection.

What was the Saints best ever finals win?

Leaving being Fadge to Fadge mate.

Are we talking about the same mighty adelaide team who finished 12th the following year because their feelings got hurt at a camp?? Very intimidating opponent. St kilda was from 09-10, not 08 and 11. They had a two year run of b2b grand finals. At least get things right mate. And yes I would back them to beat Richmond who never beat a quality opponent in grand finals. I would back a few teams over the years to beat Richmond’s run. You just simply played mediocre teams in the finals.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Are we talking about the same mighty adelaide team who finished 12th the following year because their feelings got hurt at a camp?? Very intimidating opponent. St kilda was from 09-10, not 08 and 11. They had a two year run of b2b grand finals. At least get things right mate. And yes I would back them to beat Richmond who never beat a quality opponent in grand finals

What was St Kilda’s best finals win? Then compare that to Richmond’s best 5. Then review your statement the Saints thrived under pressure.

 

[BF Tiger]

412 posts in this thread. Basically a quarter from one Richmond fan who we can basically ignore.

314 posts from other Richmond supporters and fans of other clubs. Close to a third from Geelong fans in a Richmond-Brisbane thread, but they keep telling us that it’s Richmond who are obsessed with Geelong.

 

[JasRulz63]

I think the game is more suited to mobility than traditional sit at home key forwards the way things are going.

If you take geelong and collingwood as examples this year, both game plans relied on similar dynamics, which was ( we had more the luxury than collingwood) but forwards whether big or tall being able to influence the play further up the field and have 12-20 touches and impacting in other ways. It is just too damaging and a liability to have a traditional key forward who is goals or bust in terms of influence. You basically end up with someone who becomes a liability for a big handful of games who cannot do anything unless his on song infront of the big sticks.

Both Hawkins and Cameron work hard all game up and down the field presenting and getting involved in chains.

I have lost count the amount of times Jeremy Cameron is up the field at CHB just linking up for marks and using his left foot to set up play, or the amount of loose ball gets Hawkins gathers 60m out and passes inside fifty. They have made it a focus to have all forwards involved in as many dynamics of the game to create team consistency and performance. I think Brisbane lacks this with hipwood and especially Daniher

Hipwood and Daniher are both better as tall forward flankers more than they are stay at home forwards. Their physical attributes and strengths lend better to them being used up the ground.

If anything, the issue with Hipwood, Daniher and McStay is that they were all more comfortable working up the ground, and none of them are particularly comfortable being isolated inside 50 as the main target (but inevitably one of them had to).

If anything Gunston being more of a leading inside 50 target is a major way he's an improvement structure wise over McStay.

 

[Rich01]

Yep, probably the strongest bottom bottom 8 I have seen now I actually look at it.

I mean for 9th placed to be a hawks team running around with the following stars in it speaks volume for “how terrible and s**t the bottom half was”

What a percentage boosting door Matt of a side with hodge Lewis mitchel lance franklin Trent croad birchall, Jarryd roughhead brad Sewell, Cyril rioli..… oh damn the percentages must have been rolling in for clubs against such a pathetic bunch of players.

Then if we go down to the next example of a percentage boosting doormat we have the walkover port Adelaide footy club featuring: warren tredrea, Travis boak, Kane Cornes, chad cornes, Daniel motlop, Shaun and Peter Burgoyne, Brendan lads, Dominic Cassisi, ebert, westhoff.. people just showed up and took 4 points as well.


I honestly don’t know why the bottom 8 turned up with such spuds who couldn’t compete with such weak bottom 8 talent.

Yeah that’s the problem with looking at names on paper. Just because they won the flag the year before, doesn’t mean they replicate it the year after. That 2009 side was a shell of the 2008 one, performance wise.

Just like the Richmond 2021 side was compared to its flag winning 2020 side.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

What was St Kilda’s best finals win? Then compare that to Richmond’s best 5. Then review your statement the Saints thrived under pressure.

Much better top four teams those years, Richmond played mediocre ones. Simples

 

[Rich01]

Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you can't see that a team who goes 1st, 9th, 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st and 5th is a pretty handy team, I can't help you...

They were s**t that year Fadge.
Just like Richmond were in 2021 after their flag the year before.

8 teams just didn’t leapfrog the Hawks ability while they held their form from the year before.

Cmon mate, you know this.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Much better top four teams those years, Richmond played mediocre ones. Simples

Regardless, St Kilda didn’t beat them. Richmond pantsed their opponents. You seem to overlook that fact that is rather inconvenient to your argument.

It seems to me you are attempting to use the fact triple Premiership Richmond destroyed a Minor Premier who itself had smashed its way through 2 lead up finals as evidence that zero Premiership St Kilda 09-10 would thrash Richmond. With all due respect, that is a rather eyebrow raising argument.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yeah that’s the problem with looking at names on paper. Just because they won the flag the year before, doesn’t mean they replicate it the year after. That 2009 side was a shell of the 2008 one, performance wise.

Just like the Richmond 2021 side was compared to its flag winning 2020 side.

She’ll of your former self is a weird way of describing them that year. They were a very good team on their day with extremely elite players in their primes. Bounced back very quickly in 2010 onwards.

The AFL is what it is now, my side just won the flag and I couldn’t care it is a less talented top end than the superpower years gone by. We have two new teams now and equality measures designed to prevent that. The AFL has gotten its wish with a bigger rotation of clubs swinging up and down and close finishes most weeks with an even spread. It is a healthy productive appearance for the game spreading out the talent over more clubs, like the same amount of butter over more bread.

I don’t actually see it as a bad thing for the game, who wants to watch a 10/10 side bash up a 5/10 team?? You would much rather have 6-7/10 sides more often clashing and watch the sparks fly.

 

[Rich01]

I think many people would put their money on that st kilda side beating Richmond by 6-10 goals in a grand final.

In a home and away game when it’s only the four points on the line, sure. But not a grand final. They never showed the class and composure when it really mattered unfortunately.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Regardless, St Kilda didn’t beat them. Richmond pantsed their opponents. You seem to overlook that fact that is rather inconvenient to your argument.

It seems to me you are attempting to use the fact triple Premiership Richmond destroyed a Minor Premier who had smashed its way through 2 lead up finals as evidence that zero Prmeiership St Kilda 09-10 would beat thrash Richmond. With all due respect, that is a rather eyebrow raising argument.

It’s not rocket science, I am saying Richmond beat average teams in the finals, nothing impressive. St kilda just ran into two juggernauts and got unlucky. I will try to dumb it down a bit for you.

Richmond (7.5/10) Vs Adelaide (7/10). MCG factor kicks in a bit to create the larger margin.

St kilda (9.5/10) vs geelong (10/10) and collingwood (9.5/10). One loss by a toe poke the other a draw then a loss week after.

Talent observation standard in brackets.

Not sure how much more I can simplify it.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

In a home and away game when it’s only the four points on the line, sure. But not a grand final. They never showed the class and composure when it really mattered unfortunately.

A toe poke and an unlucky bounce means they didn’t show composure and class? I think they showed a lot of it to go toe to toe with those two elite grand final sides. Very unlucky to not walk away with at least 1 of the two if not both

 

[Meteoric Rise]

It’s not rocket science, I am saying Richmond beat average teams in the finals, nothing impressive. St kilda just ran into two juggernauts and got unlucky. I will try to dumb it down a bit for you.

Richmond (7.5/10) Vs Adelaide (7/10). MCG factor kicks in a bit to create the larger margin.

St kilda (9.5/10) vs geelong (10/10) and collingwood (9.5/10). One loss by a toe poke the other a draw then a loss week after.

Talent observation standard in brackets.

Not sure how much more I can simplify it.

This is getting good GC. Home ground advantage thought previously to be worth around 1-2 goals at best and less in finals is now somehow worth about 7 goals according to you.

And St Kilda who won zero Grand Finals and Collingwood who won zero Grand Finals are 9.5 out of 10 teams where triple Premiership Richmond are a 7.5 out of 10 team. Ah, but triple Premiership Geelong are a 10 out of 10 team.

 

[Rich01]

[/QUOTE]

She’ll of your former self is a weird way of describing them that year. They were a very good team on their day with extremely elite players in their primes. Bounced back very quickly in 2010 onwards.

8 teams didn’t progress past the reigning premiers while they held steady. They regressed significantly that year.

 

[Rich01]

A toe poke and an unlucky bounce means they didn’t show composure and class? I think they showed a lot of it to go toe to toe with those two elite grand final sides. Very unlucky to not walk away with at least 1 of the two if not both

Yeah some see really important actions by superstars as ‘lucky’. I see it as seizing the moment.

Was Scarlett ‘lucky’ with his toe tap? Or did the Saints player hesitate?

Or your mate Dusty burning off his opponent in the second quarter with that dribble kick goal from 60? Or did the Geelong defense not communicate?

Or McGovern taking that intercept mark, leading to the Sheed goal? Or was that just DeGoey deciding not to contest and instead hang out the back for the cheapie that never came?

All lucky? Or Classy?

Not saying these teams didn’t deserve to be there. But the one thing that defines champion teams is the ability for someone in that team to stand up and define the game at the most important time.

Milne mis-read that bounce to seal the GF. But he didn’t make the play.

Nick Riewoldt the week after was mown down in the goal square and this action set the tone for the rest of the match.

Both excellent players, and in Riewoldts case, a champion. But both had their moment to stamp a grand final. And missed it.

St Kilda had THREE chances to find that player. They had their moments as you say, but they didn’t step up in there.

Great team when it wasn’t a match with everything on the line though. I think we both agree on that.

 

[Fadge]

They were s**t that year Fadge.
Just like Richmond were in 2021 after their flag the year before.

8 teams just didn’t leapfrog the Hawks ability while they held their form from the year before.

Cmon mate, you know this.

Yes, they had a slightly down year but to refer to a side as a s**t side given their performances immediately pre and post that season is just plain wrong.

And don't compare them to Richmond 2021. Richmond haven't won a final since 2020. Hawthorn went on to win 3 more flags.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yes, they had a slightly down year but to refer to a side as a s**t side given their performances immediately pre and post that season is just plain wrong.

And don't compare them to Richmond 2021. Richmond haven't won a final since 2020. Hawthorn went on to win 3 more flags.

Ok so Richmond 2016 were clearly way better than Richmond 2021 going by that criteria.

But like all Fagic(Fadge Logic)…..