Traded Confirmed Trade: Lake & Pick 27 to Hawks for Pick 21 & 41

[Pera]

Im always amazed how opp supporters can comment so definitively on another teams lust when they clearly have no idea at all.

We are almost as blind as Hawthorn supporters's view on Schoenmakers. Even your club is admitting he is a liability yet you still seem to think he is a good honest footballer.

 

[Mofra]

Im always amazed how opp supporters can comment so definitively on another teams lust when they clearly have no idea at all.

Depends if she gives an interview on ACA or not

 

[FRUMPY]

Great trade by hawthorn, get one of the best FB' and lose only 6 places in the draft.

WB's probably could have got more from other clubs i would have thought

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

If Schoenmakers is best 22 and playing defence, you still won't win the flag.

Hawthorn list management have spotted a deficiency in the FB line and are trying to rectify it. Schoenmkaers could be going forward or will be fighting for a birth in the 22. You won't win a premiership with him in the side.

Mate, just give up. You're clearly clueless if you're writing off a 21yr old key defender.

Schoenmakers only ever got rag-dolled by the players that Lake will now go to(Hawkins, Cloke and Tippett). Schoenmakers had more than a handful of "Names" in his scalp bag, like Josh Kennedy, Pavlich, Riewoldt, Reid.

 

[Last Line Hero]

One of the stupider posts I've seen..

Good comeback Responses like these are the most pathetic of all. It just screams one of two things, A) "Deep down I agree, but you're an opposition fan speaking out against my club so I'll insult you without saying anything worthwhile so you think I'm not on your side" or B) "I disagree, but I have nothing I can say to prove you wrong, so I'll just insult you." Just as sad either way really.

 

[Messenger]

This is outrageous. How is the Premiership runners up able to bolster their team like this? Obviously the salary cap isn't working as it should and there needs to be an investigation into the Hawks, and how they are able to keep all their stars on mega-bucks contracts, AND bring in a key position player from a rival club. For only one first round draft pick as well! The Dogs were reamed! Was surely expecting Buddy to have been part of the trade, anything less and the Dogs have been completely screwed over. Dogs fans, and fans of the integrity of this league, must be fuming.

Waverley is very expensive and we need to do that so a 400k contract isn't eaten up on $5 lattes and the outrageous price of BMW servicing

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Double standards.

Ohh it's a Victorian club...................I wonder if Kennett believes that it's either good player payment management or that the Hawks are cheating the salary cap?

Yep................double standards!

Are people actually accusing Sydney of cheating the cap? I've not read that and it would just come across as jealous and you'd be best served ignoring it.

I thought it was a known fact they have more space to work with? Not their fault, but it is fact.

Double standards, pfffft, get off your high horse before you pass out.

 

[Hodgepodge]

HP, you've shown time and time again to have very little insight into the players that you supposedly follow. Last year it was Jordan Lisle that was going to leap frog Schoenmakers.

Jordan Lisle has proved quite promising at the Brisbane Lions already, albeit as a forward. I am also not claiming that Bosley will leapfrog Schoenmakers, just that he will be more likely to play a key defensive role. My opinion of Schoenmakers is that he is best used on a 3rd tall, as a rebounding defender.

 

[SirJimi05]

I would rather be old and good, than young and s**t.

Absolutely! Where did I say otherwise? Don't be so sensitive.

 

[Messenger]

Nice generalisation, but try looking at real estate around Randwick\Coogee\Bronte or post the average median house price across all of Melbourne. Otherwise your comparison is skewed and shows that the particular area of Sydney = Geelong.

They can't buy in Kellyville, Syd?

 

[mt. heart attack]

You've invested the past two years in both of them playing key defense for the most part on the opposition's two best forwards. The mere fact Shoenmakers kept getting a game was indicative that Clarkson's intention was to develop them in that role for the next decade and build your defence around them. Suddenly Shoenmakers is demoted to playing on the 2nd string forwards and Stratton moved on to the 3rd-4th tall, whilst Gibson and Lake assume the integral responsibilities. That is isn't teaching or assisting, it's replacing. In 2-3 years time both are going to have to step back up be expected to re- assume roles they have lost 2-3 years they could have had continuing to develop on players who are just going to continue to get older and stronger. Like I said, I guess it just depends what a club values more. Clearly the Hawks at the minute are solely focused on winning a flag now rather than building a product that could still win a flag but last a decade.

I don't buy it. I can understand where you are coming from however, as a average football observer, there is no way to measure whether this will be the case. We can speculate all we want, however the end game here for Hawthorn is a flag in 2013 or 2014. Anything less and it will be considered a failure, much akin to the Burgoyne trade.

In the mean time, I still expect Schoenmakers to develop as a key defensive player. Whether the introduction of Lake hampers his development is, and will likely remain, inconclusive.

 

[Pera]

Mate, just give up. You're clearly clueless if you're writing off a 21yr old key defender.

Schoenmakers only ever got rag-dolled by the players that Lake will now go to(Hawkins, Cloke and Tippett). Schoenmakers had more than a handful of "Names" in his scalp bag, like Josh Kennedy, Pavlich, Riewoldt, Reid.

I'm not writing him off. Just think he is a battler and you can't win flags with battlers at FB. He may never even reach the lofty expectations of Hawks fans and their is barely any indication he will. Nathan Brown and Ben Reid looked like FB's after 25 games. Schoenmakers has had 50 and doesn't look like he is up to it. Gibson also protects him more than anyone else in the league. Lake is guaranteed to take Schoenmakers spot in the 22. From there, it's anyones guess as to where he plays.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

We are almost as blind as Hawthorn supporters's view on Schoenmakers. Even your club is admitting he is a liability yet you still seem to think he is a good honest footballer.

Shoey can be both you fool.

He is a decent, honest footballer. He can also be a liability when playing on a monster fwd. I wish the club would recruit a known key defender so they could release Shoey to play in a position better suited to his attributes....

 

[MinerBoy]

And where to after that? If they don't win a flag their defence is shot, and the fall from grace will be disasterous. Guerra finished, Gibson nearly finished, Lake finished and Shoenmakers and Stratton back to square one playing the roles they are now having lost 2-3 years development. By then all of Hodge, Sewell, Burgoyne & Mitchell will be well past their best as well. I guess it all depends on what a club values more, some short term loss for a long term gain, or a lot of short term gain for a long term loss. The Hawks would want to hope they can save face with a flag quickly.

This line of thought doesn't even make sense.

1. Our draft spot has only gone back 6 spots while picking up a very good player.

2. Clubs want to win flags. Now..and in the future. I can't imagine any club saying "let's plan to just not be s**t in 5 years at the expense of possibly winning a flag now".


There's no guarantee pick 21 yields a player who makes you any better in 5 years than the pick 27 does.
The kids worthy of a game will still get them (Shoe and Stratts for eg) and will continue to develop.
The club will still participate in future drafts and trades over the next 5 years. They may well end up being a club that gets an early draft pick for an established player next year.


You seem to think the club's overall position in 5 years time is entirely dependant on this trade.


Hawks were bottom of the ladder in 2004 and won 2008. The club won't be top 4 indefinitely but even when they drop off it doesn't mean they are then condemned to Richmond like years of failure. WCE, Hawks, Crows etc are all clubs that have been right to the depths recently and quickly climbed the ladder. Others like the Swans have managed their list well enough to never drop off too far.


To suggest this means we are cooked in 5 years if we don't win a flag instantly is just pure insanity.

 

[MC_9]

Absolutely! Where did I say otherwise? Don't be so sensitive.

Wasn't really directed at you. More the idea on Bigfooty that it is more important to be young than good.

 

[foj1]

Hawks win this trade clearly.
I actually think shoenmakers is a natural forward who has been played out of position. Essendon tried to turn Bradley into a defender which he never was. Just my opinion well done hawks.

 

[SirJimi05]

Wasn't really directed at you. More the idea on Bigfooty that it is more important to be young than good.

Yeah I know, it's a bit ridiculous. The two clubs with the oldest lists played off in this years grand final.

I reckon Lake is an inspired pickup by the Hawks. Surprised WB got so little from the deal tbh.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You've invested the past two years in both of them playing key defense for the most part on the opposition's two best forwards. The mere fact Shoenmakers kept getting a game was indicative that Clarkson's intention was to develop them in that role for the next decade and build your defence around them. Suddenly Shoenmakers is demoted to playing on the 2nd string forwards and Stratton moved on to the 3rd-4th tall, whilst Gibson and Lake assume the integral responsibilities. That is isn't teaching or assisting, it's replacing. If Clarkson was smart he'd continue giving Shoenmakers the big jobs, and allow Lake to utilise his ability to read the play as a 2nd tall to support him, otherwise in 2-3 years time both (Statton and Shoey) are going to have to step back up be expected to re- assume roles they have lost 2-3 years they could have had continuing to develop on players who are just going to continue to get older and stronger. Like I said, I guess it just depends what a club values more. Clearly the Hawks at the minute are solely focused on winning a flag now rather than building a product that could still win a flag but last a decade.

You make it sound like we have no other defenders developing on our list, and that Schoenmakers was gifted games. He finished 12th in our B&F.

Bosely is on our rookie list, and also Kelly and Litherland who are mid defenders are playing at Box Hill.
We have a 195cm Key Defender international rookie currently sitting at Sandringham dragons who will join us in 2013, and a NSW rookie of similar size.


We've also just landed arguably the best talent to have left the shores of Ireland in the last 20 years(according to some of the media in Dublin), with a couple of Father sons on the horizon, and numerous players who have contacted the club over the last few seasons about joining us.

I don't understand how anyone can conclude that the Lake trade is selling us up some sort of river that will see us dive, when it's so clear that Hawthorn is a club that players want to go to.

 

[SirJimi05]

This line of thought doesn't even make sense.

1. Our draft spot has only gone back 6 spots while picking up a very good player.

2. Clubs want to win flags. Now..and in the future. I can't imagine any club saying "let's plan to just not be s**t in 5 years at the expense of possibly winning a flag now".


There's no guarantee pick 21 yields a player who makes you any better in 5 years than the pick 27 does.
The kids worthy of a game will still get them (Shoe and Stratts for eg) and will continue to develop.
The club will still participate in future drafts and trades over the next 5 years. They may well end up being a club that gets an early draft pick for an established player next year.


You seem to think the club's overall position in 5 years time is entirely dependant on this trade.


Hawks were bottom of the ladder in 2004 and won 2008. The club won't be top 4 indefinitely but even when they drop off it doesn't mean they are then condemned to Richmond like years of failure. WCE, Hawks, Crows etc are all clubs that have been right to the depths recently and quickly climbed the ladder. Others like the Swans have managed their list well enough to never drop off too far.


To suggest this means we are cooked in 5 years if we don't win a flag instantly is just pure insanity.

Absolute no brainer for mine.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'm not writing him off. Just think he is a battler and you can't win flags with battlers at FB. He may never even reach the lofty expectations of Hawks fans and their is barely any indication he will. Nathan Brown and Ben Reid looked like FB's after 25 games. Schoenmakers has had 50 and doesn't look like he is up to it. Gibson also protects him more than anyone else in the league. Lake is guaranteed to take Schoenmakers spot in the 22. From there, it's anyones guess as to where he plays.

Utter rubbish. Reid was being kicked like a mangy cat on here up until 2010.

Schoenmakers is just another young tall who people like to slam because he doesn't have the core strength and or bulk yet to dominate his opponent.

Seriously, watch some football, or stop commenting on things you don't understand.

 

[Bardo State]

I'm not writing him off. Just think he is a battler and you can't win flags with battlers at FB. He may never even reach the lofty expectations of Hawks fans and their is barely any indication he will. Nathan Brown and Ben Reid looked like FB's after 25 games. Schoenmakers has had 50 and doesn't look like he is up to it. Gibson also protects him more than anyone else in the league. Lake is guaranteed to take Schoenmakers spot in the 22. From there, it's anyones guess as to where he plays.

Reid was being torn apart by pies supporters at around 25 games and Nathan Brown has never had to take the best opposition forward for an extended period of time. Pretty pointless comparison.

 

[Pera]

Reid was being torn apart by pies supporters at around 25 games and Nathan Brown has never had to take the best opposition forward for an extended period of time. Pretty pointless comparison.

Reid was torn apart after 6 games as a forward. Went to FB with only around 15 games under his belt in 2010 and won a Premiership that year. Brown towelled Nick Riewoldt in back to back GF's. Schoenmakers hasn't even delivered in a final as of yet, and Hawthorn management are starting to realise they cant win a flag with him at FB. The shuffling begins.

 

[hk89]

That is very sensible, however when Nichols and Mcinerny don't play, it all falls apart.

How much respect do you think Hawthorn fans have got from their constant umpire whining over the last 10 years? Carry on, it will be a relief to pass the whinge mantle. I see you side stepped the Adelaide issue of leaking quality interstate players due their town being seen as a dead end. Maybe if you'd kept Gunston, you'd have won that game despite the umpires. Now you've lost Tippet and we've added Lake, with the umpires against you too, I'd not be getting too excited about 2013 if I was a Crows supporter.

 

[kaiserchief13]

Good bye Schoenclangers rip

 

[Bardo State]

Reid was torn apart after 6 games as a forward. Went to FB with only around 15 games under his belt in 2010 and won a Premiership that year. Brown towelled Nick Riewoldt in back to back GF's. Schoenmakers hasn't even delivered in a final as of yet, and Hawthorn management are starting to realise they cant win a flag with him at FB. The shuffling begins.

Schoenmakers delivered in the GF. Demonstrated what he could do when matched up on a similar sized player. And has Brown ever done anything besides those 2 games? There's no shuffling, just 2-3 years extra development playing on a second tall.