Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

Which dynasty is the greatest?

  • Total voters
    772

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.
Meteoric Rise said:
To be clear…

I wasn’t saying Caddy, Prestia or Higgins were unavailable. Prestia was well underdone for the early finals, coming back into the team off a long term injury with complications off no footy. It is understood Caddy couldn’t get his body right and was never considered after the final home and away match, when he performed creditably in the circumstances. Higgins missed the 2019 finals entirely and was clearly nowhere near his best in 2020, and this can only be presumed to be due to the effects of his brain surgeries.

Stack would without doubt be in our best 22 if near his best, Soldo played in our 2019 Premiership alongside Nankervis, and was a fixture in our team when injured. And in the absence of Soldo, Coleman-Jones would likely have been used as second ruck if he was available. He is highly rated, and would have been a late third year AFL player, about the time decent quality tall players start to hit their straps.

Gresham and Ryder would definitely make your team better. But it is not like you had to deal with more missing or hampered than we had.

The Vlastuin incident I saw all sorts of pictures and angles on that and not one of them was even close to conclusive. He jumped on Robbo pretty quick when Robbo labelled him a cheat from memory, and Robbo withdrew it quick smart, no doubt under fear of defamation action. At law, you cannot defame someone with something you can prove is true….

And Vlastuin’s reaction was not evidence of him not touching it, his actions were completely consistent with the situation whether he had touched it or not. He had to contest the ball further as he wasn’t even certain it had completely crossed the line. This incident is one of the most misdescribed and misunderstood during the whole season and that is saying something in a season where Tom Lynch is painted as a thug etc etc.

The Saints probably didn’t have a lot go their way in this match, but they were never truly in the contest, and it would be a hell of a stretch to say Richmond was lucky to beat them, though I understand that is not exactly what you are saying.
Click to expand...
If you're claiming Prestia as underdone then I'll claim Hannebery....

The Vlaustin thing was clear as day. Do you seriously think all the commentators were wrong? Even Adam Cooney (from the armchair experts after game show) mentioned it.

There was 3 goals in this, well into the last quarter. After Richmond had that goal review go their way, and had kicked 4 or 5 goals that either: bounced multiple times on the way through, or were snaps that were almost touched.

Saying St Kilda wasn't in this contest is ridiculous.

Ryder won the tap-ruck contest most weeks for St Kilda and hit outs to advantage- an area Nankerkis won against Marshall. Ryder also provides a valuable extra forward option and allows Marshall to do likewise, so his absence threw out the forward structure that was so effective against the Bulldogs. Ryder was 3rd in St Kildas best and fairest on votes/game. Gresham is a very dangerous player on his night, the type you need to break the game open against Richmond and in fact, I recall Gresham doing exactly that, kicking 5 goals at the G vs them in 2017. Carlisle plays a position that we lack depth in and could've used another against Lynch and Riewoldt.

There is no way Richmond's absences were as structurally important as St Kilda's.

I'm not suggesting Richmond was "lucky to win", just that they had much more luck than St Kilda.
 
Last edited:
PJays said:
This is relevant to this thread so I'll elaborate.

Most premiers have a near full contingent of players on Grand Final day.

Very few are missing multiple key players. The only ones I can think of are West Coast 2018 who were missing Gaff (suspension) and Nic Nat. And the fairytale Dogs who were incredibly missing 6 or 7 of their best 22.

Look at Richmond this year. Full strength squad through the finals.

Consider St.Kildas absentees in the semi final:

Ryder was crucial to St Kilda in 2020. We were 9-5 with Ryder including finals, with 3 of the losses by under a goal and a 4th by 15 points after we led by 8 points with 8 minutes to go. So 9 wins, 4 nail biting losses and a big loss. He finished 3rd in our B&F on a votes per game basis, (8th overall after missing 4 games) and was Best on Ground in our elimination final before pinging his hammy with a minute left. Huge absence. Ryder would probably have nullified Nankervis and won the ruck battle for St.Kilda like he did all year.

Carlisle missed due to his wife being due. He would’ve been helpful as another option on Lynch.

Gresham has been one of the Saints best for 4 or 5 years.

St Kilda missing 3 quality players including the crucial Ryder. Richmond full strength.

Now consider other luck Richmond had:

- The Vlaustin goal review- clearly incorrect. Daylight between hand and ball. St.Kilda denied a goal.

- Richmond nailed a few arsey goals from 35-40m that bounced through, whereas St Kilda kicked poorly going 6.13.

If St.Kilda had their full contingent, and Richmond had been missing 3 important players, and St Kilda was the beneficiary of a helpful goal review and some lucky bounces, what would the result have been? Could St Kilda have won like they did against Richmond during the season (comfortably)?

No one knows. But it would've definitely been much closer than the 31 point margin to Richmond that occurred.

Richmond got some lucky breaks. The main one being, they had their best team on the field. Their opponent didn't. Many premiers find themselves in this same situation.
Click to expand...
Hahahaha piss off mate, we are better than you just deal with it. If you're gonna use "arsey" goals as an argument as to why your team was unlucky then you know it's over.

We go up a level in finals as proven in previous years and this. Even if you had your "full strength" side we still would of beaten you
 
PJays said:
If you're claiming Prestia as underdone then I'll claim Hannebery....

The Vlaustin thing was clear as day. Do you seriously think all the commentators were wrong? Even Adam Cooney (from the armchair experts after game show) mentioned it.

There was 3 goals in this, well into the last quarter. After Richmond had that goal review go their way, and had kicked 4 or 5 goals that either: bounced multiple times on the way through, or were snaps that were almost touched.

Saying St Kilda wasn't in this contest is ridiculous.

Ryder won the tap-ruck contest most weeks for St Kilda and hit outs to advantage- an area Nankerkis won against Marshall. Ryder also provides a valuable extra forward option and allows Marshall to do likewise, so his absence threw out the forward structure that was so effective against the Bulldogs. Ryder was 3rd in St Kildas best and fairest on votes/game. Gresham is a very dangerous player on his night, the type you need to break the game open against Richmond and in fact, I recall Gresham doing exactly that, kicking 5 goals at the G vs them in 2017. Carlisle plays a position that we lack depth in and could've used another against Lynch and Riewoldt.

There is no way Richmond's absences were as structurally important as St Kilda's.

I'm not suggesting Richmond was "lucky to win", just that they had much more luck than St Kilda.
Click to expand...
This guy legit trying to convince himself saints would of had a chance 😂😂 we won mate. Move on
 

Log in to remove this ad.

PJays said:
This is relevant to this thread so I'll elaborate.

Most premiers have a near full contingent of players on Grand Final day.

Very few are missing multiple key players. The only ones I can think of are West Coast 2018 who were missing Gaff (suspension) and Nic Nat. And the fairytale Dogs who were incredibly missing 6 or 7 of their best 22.

Look at Richmond this year. Full strength squad through the finals.

Consider St.Kildas absentees in the semi final:

Ryder was crucial to St Kilda in 2020. We were 9-5 with Ryder including finals, with 3 of the losses by under a goal and a 4th by 15 points after we led by 8 points with 8 minutes to go. So 9 wins, 4 nail biting losses and a big loss. He finished 3rd in our B&F on a votes per game basis, (8th overall after missing 4 games) and was Best on Ground in our elimination final before pinging his hammy with a minute left. Huge absence. Ryder would probably have nullified Nankervis and won the ruck battle for St.Kilda like he did all year.

Carlisle missed due to his wife being due. He would’ve been helpful as another option on Lynch.

Gresham has been one of the Saints best for 4 or 5 years.

St Kilda missing 3 quality players including the crucial Ryder. Richmond full strength.

Now consider other luck Richmond had:

- The Vlaustin goal review- clearly incorrect. Daylight between hand and ball. St.Kilda denied a goal.

- Richmond nailed a few arsey goals from 35-40m that bounced through, whereas St Kilda kicked poorly going 6.13.

If St.Kilda had their full contingent, and Richmond had been missing 3 important players, and St Kilda was the beneficiary of a helpful goal review and some lucky bounces, what would the result have been? Could St Kilda have won like they did against Richmond during the season (comfortably)?

No one knows. But it would've definitely been much closer than the 31 point margin to Richmond that occurred.

Richmond got some lucky breaks. The main one being, they had their best team on the field. Their opponent didn't. Many premiers find themselves in this same situation.
Click to expand...



My reading of this game was completely different. I believe that Richmond viewed this game more like a practice match to prepare themselves for the real big boys in the following weeks. We brought Lynch back from injury and we put some game time on his legs. Same with Prestia and Edwards who were coming back from long footy absences due to injury/personal reasons. We tried our one ruckman plan and we saw it was working. We brought back Broad, a hugely underrated Jack of all trades for us, stabilising and making our defense even stronger.

We established a 3-5 goal lead which we never lost and throughout the game we were putting the foot on the accelerator only when needed. As a result we had a good hit out, we fine-tuned a couple of things and conserved a lot of energy. We were able-therefore- to overrun Port Adelaide and Geelong in the 4th quarter of both games, under heavy/raining conditions.

During the home and away season St Kilda played against a very depleted West Coast team, who were not only missing most of their first-choice midfielders but most of their replacements as well. Gaff- a classic winger- was WC’s main inside midfielder, along with Naitanui, forced to rove his own taps by necessity. And yet, you lost to them. A team which loses games like that is not one that will progress far in the finals. Not hard enough, not dogged enough, cannot stand the heat, the pressure of being the favourite. And this was an important, late season game. A potential top-four defining match.

Missing players or not, lucky bounces or not, goal reviews or not, you were never going to win the final against the Tigers. To beat the Tigers you have to go through them, they are not going to lie down and let you cuddle them. If they have to go up next gear, they will, no matter what happens with the other team, or not. Ask the Port Adelaide and Geelong players. Very naive of you and showing lack of footy knowledge to compare the Tigers in the beginning of home and away season and in finals. Richmond does not reach peak form at the start of the season. They do so-by design-in finals. This is when Dusty’s alarm clock goes off, he wakes up and he gets into business. We learned our lesson in 2018, when we reached peak form too early. We are a multiple premiership winning, finals-hardened team. We only care to win enough HA games to take us to the top-four where the real season begins.

Do not end up like WC supporters, dealing only in hypotheticals, in order to escape the reality that your team-currently- is not quite there yet. Improved-yes- but certainly not capable of knocking Richmond out of the finals, irrespective of all the shouldas, couldas, wouldas, goudas(yum!) you can come up with. Both Port and the Cats are way better teams than the Saints. They couldn’t do it either. Maybe next year...
 
Last edited:
PJays said:
This is relevant to this thread so I'll elaborate.

Most premiers have a near full contingent of players on Grand Final day.

Very few are missing multiple key players. The only ones I can think of are West Coast 2018 who were missing Gaff (suspension) and Nic Nat. And the fairytale Dogs who were incredibly missing 6 or 7 of their best 22.

Look at Richmond this year. Full strength squad through the finals.

Consider St.Kildas absentees in the semi final:

Ryder was crucial to St Kilda in 2020. We were 9-5 with Ryder including finals, with 3 of the losses by under a goal and a 4th by 15 points after we led by 8 points with 8 minutes to go. So 9 wins, 4 nail biting losses and a big loss. He finished 3rd in our B&F on a votes per game basis, (8th overall after missing 4 games) and was Best on Ground in our elimination final before pinging his hammy with a minute left. Huge absence. Ryder would probably have nullified Nankervis and won the ruck battle for St.Kilda like he did all year.

Carlisle missed due to his wife being due. He would’ve been helpful as another option on Lynch.

Gresham has been one of the Saints best for 4 or 5 years.

St Kilda missing 3 quality players including the crucial Ryder. Richmond full strength.

Now consider other luck Richmond had:

- The Vlaustin goal review- clearly incorrect. Daylight between hand and ball. St.Kilda denied a goal.

- Richmond nailed a few arsey goals from 35-40m that bounced through, whereas St Kilda kicked poorly going 6.13.

If St.Kilda had their full contingent, and Richmond had been missing 3 important players, and St Kilda was the beneficiary of a helpful goal review and some lucky bounces, what would the result have been? Could St Kilda have won like they did against Richmond during the season (comfortably)?

No one knows. But it would've definitely been much closer than the 31 point margin to Richmond that occurred.

Richmond got some lucky breaks. The main one being, they had their best team on the field. Their opponent didn't. Many premiers find themselves in this same situation.
Click to expand...

Were Richmond lucky when they were missing Tom Lynch in the final against Brisbane where they broke down completely up forward when targeting a hapless Mabior Chol?

That game actually was fairly close so a couple of key changes could’ve swung the result, rendering your whole point moot.

I like how you mention that Richmond were at full strength, and then talk about how Ryder could’ve nullified Nankervis. Completely oblivious to the fact Nankervis isn’t Richmond’s number 1 ruckman.

Out of curiosity, how does Geelong’s record with injury look over the 5 years? Ottens always seemed to be on the sidelines. Chappy would miss a few games each year. Ablett had the odd niggle here and there. Any key players miss significant time over the 5 year run? Egan was a big loss in 2007.
 
PJays said:
You're not seriously comparing 2007 with 2019 are you?

2019- Close game early. GWS held a 5 point lead until the 24 minute mark Q1. Richmond took control in Q2. Led by 56 early Q4 before piling on late goals to win by 89.
Click to expand...

The Giant's didn't "hold a lead until 24 minutes in", they held a lead for 4 minutes after kicking a goal 20 minutes in and immediately coughing up two.

Geelong were leading 15-8 after 19 minutes. Richmond lead 15-8 at quarter time. The scoring progressed quicker in the Geelong game because it was a higher scoring game. It's no wonder the margin grew quicker. Richmond held their opponent goalless for an entire hour. What's more impressive? The Power had kicked 4 goals halfway through the 2nd quarter. Richmond conceded 3 for the entire game.

2007- Geelong dominated from the opening minutes. 12 scoring shots to 4 first quarter. 52 point half time lead. Had a 128 point lead but Port goaled late. Broke all time record with 119 point win.

And don't forget Geelong won the qualifying final by 106 3 weeks earlier.

Geelong had the most dominant wins. This isn't even debatable.[/quote]

And winning 3 straight is better than winning 3/5. That isn't even debatable. Yet here we are 70 pages later.

PJays said:
2019 GWS finished 6th and scraped through to the GF. Talented list but haven't ever consistently displayed that talent cohesively as a team, or shown the toughness necessary to win finals.

Port 2007 probably the superior team. At least comparable.
Click to expand...

2016 Preliminary final. 1-1 record in finals
2017 Preliminary final. 1-2 in finals
2018 Semi final. 1-1 in finals
2019 Grand final. 3-1 record in finals

They had a 6-5 record in finals (including the GF). People were actually hyping up how they'd finally found their harder edge going into the Grand Final.

PJays said:
Who?

2008 Hawthorn, 2010 Collingwood and 2010 St Kilda all superior to 2018 Collingwood, who smashed Richmond.

And 2020 Brisbane...... lol. That one doesn't need discussing after the way they lost the prelim. In fact they've finished top 4 with a double chance 2 years in a row and Richmond's the only team they've managed to beat! How bad does that make Richmond look!?

Take off those yellow and black glasses mate! At least try to.
Click to expand...

You said lesser teams. I assumed losing to teams lower on the ladder counted. FWIW that 2018 Collingwood was similar standard to the 2010 Saints but in much better form. We don't know how history will remember Brisbane yet. They might win a flag or two or three in the upcoming years.
 
PJays said:
If you're claiming Prestia as underdone then I'll claim Hannebery....

The Vlaustin thing was clear as day. Do you seriously think all the commentators were wrong? Even Adam Cooney (from the armchair experts after game show) mentioned it.

There was 3 goals in this, well into the last quarter. After Richmond had that goal review go their way, and had kicked 4 or 5 goals that either: bounced multiple times on the way through, or were snaps that were almost touched.

Saying St Kilda wasn't in this contest is ridiculous.

Ryder won the tap-ruck contest most weeks for St Kilda and hit outs to advantage- an area Nankerkis won against Marshall. Ryder also provides a valuable extra forward option and allows Marshall to do likewise, so his absence threw out the forward structure that was so effective against the Bulldogs. Ryder was 3rd in St Kildas best and fairest on votes/game. Gresham is a very dangerous player on his night, the type you need to break the game open against Richmond and in fact, I recall Gresham doing exactly that, kicking 5 goals at the G vs them in 2017. Carlisle plays a position that we lack depth in and could've used another against Lynch and Riewoldt.

There is no way Richmond's absences were as structurally important as St Kilda's.

I'm not suggesting Richmond was "lucky to win", just that they had much more luck than St Kilda.
Click to expand...

LMAO this is some strong coping. The Saints were 4 goals down before you could blink and were kept at arms length all night. 55-24 at half time in a game with shortended quarters. At no point did it ever feel like the Saints were in it. The closest they got was 17 points early in the 4th. It would be like claiming Richmond were in the 2018 prelim because they got the margin back to 21 points early in the 4th. Neither team were close. Nobodies buying it
 
And now that we know you're a big old injury apologist Pjays, I'd like to get you thoughts on Richmond's 2019 season.

Round 1: Lost 5x All Australian Alex Rance to an ACL. Season over
Round 2: Lost reigning Coleman medalist and B&F winner Jack Riewoldt. Missed 12 games before returning in round 17
Round 3: Lost club captain and gun midfielder Trent Cotchin. Trent didn't return until round 11 and missed 11 games for the year.
Round 8: Lost the clubs number 1 ruckman Toby Nankervis for 12 weeks. He didn't return until round 21.
Round 13: Lost young gun Jack Higgins in round 13 for the season due to a serious brain injury.

On top of these major ones there were the usual less serious 2-3 game injuries throughout the year. Yet despite this Richmond managed a 16-6 record for the year. I'm interested to know, do you think Richmond's comparatively weaker H&A record could possibly have been partly due to these injuries? Considering you think Carlisle, Greesham and Ryder are enough to potentially reverse a result where St Kilda got flogged.

Do you think it's possible having Rance, Riewoldt, Cotchin & Nankervis all available might've helped Richmond push up towards 18, 19 or possibly even 20 wins for the year? Keeping in mind Richmond won 12 straight to finish the season once they had most of their better players back. Do you believe the 2008 Cats would've still gone 21-1 if they lost that sort of quality so early in the season?

Interested to know since we know you believe injuries can impact a teams fortunes so much. Especially to structurally important players like Rance, Riewoldt, Cotchin and Nankervis.
 
Oh dear.

Have a listen to the offended Richmond fans. I've really poked the bear!

Nothing like 3 flags to generate a bit of over confidence.

Listening to you lot is eerily reminiscent of Hawks fans circa 2016 who thought the sun shone from Clarko's butt crack.

Keep trying to convince yourselves Richmond 2020 was the same side as Richmond 2017 and 2019 when in 2020.....

- Beaten by a team who's had a double chance 2 years in a row and won.... wait for it. 1 final. Against your lot. Brisbane had multiple chances to end the game in the last quarter and couldn't do it. Richmond only stayed in the game due to Brisbane's inexperience. That's why I texted my brother straight after the game and said Brisbane wouldn't win the flag but Richmond would beat them in a rematch. Except I didn't realise Brisbane were so far off the pace, they'd be incapable of a competitive effort in a home prelim!

- Escaped with a tight win against Port, possibly the worst minor premier of my life. ST.Kilda nailed them during the year...in Adelaide!

- Beat an inexperienced Saints side on their first trip to the finals in 9 years. In a competitive match. Yes, let me just repeat. When your team scores a few luckier-than-average goals, and gets a lucky goal review that is widely panned in the footy world afterwards, but its 17 points the difference well into Q4.... that's a competitive match. Your apologetics need serious work if you're trying to work around those facts.

- Had to come from 3 or 4 goals down in the GF.

Go on. Keep convincing yourselves the gap doesn't appear to be closing!

And I'll circle back to my original point- most premiers have a near full strength team on GF day.

Without getting sidetracked on Richmomd's 2019 home and away season, someone answer me this question- which is actually relevant to my point:

In their 3 flag years, how many key players have Richmond been missing in prelims or GF's?
 
Barry_Badrinath said:
You said lesser teams. I assumed losing to teams lower on the ladder counted. FWIW that 2018 Collingwood was similar standard to the 2010 Saints but in much better form. We don't know how history will remember Brisbane yet. They might win a flag or two or three in the upcoming years.
Click to expand...

St.Kilda 2010- 35-8-1 home and away record over 2 seasons. Experienced team, lost the premiership by a whisker 2 years in a row to quality premiers.

Collingwood 2018- An inexperienced side who lost a tight GF to a below average premier.

Ah, yep. Collingwood just as strong!

Brisbane might well win a flag or two. That won't erase their inept finals efforts in 2019 and 2020!

Geelong lost three finals in five long years, all to very good teams.

Richmond has already lost two finals against inferior opponents.

It's quite amusing hearing the rationales you're putting forward in your failed efforts at showing Richmond was as strong as Geelong in finals!

Keep going. I'll need some more popcorn!

Oh and GWS were cooked after scraping through with nail biting wins, two weeks in a row. A bit like Collingwood this year. Richmond narrowly avoided Collingwood, who would've given them a good run. Too bad, the neutral fans missed the matchup we wanted.
 
PJays said:
St.Kilda 2010- 35-8-1 home and away record over 2 seasons. Experienced team, lost the premiership by a whisker 2 years in a row to quality premiers.

Collingwood 2018- An inexperienced side who lost a tight GF to a below average premier.

Ah, yep. Collingwood just as strong!

Brisbane might well win a flag or two. That won't erase their inept finals efforts in 2019 and 2020!

Geelong lost three finals in five long years, all to very good teams.

Richmond has already lost two finals against inferior opponents.

It's quite amusing hearing the rationales you're putting forward in your failed efforts at showing Richmond was as strong as Geelong in finals!

Keep going. I'll need some more popcorn!

Oh and GWS were cooked after scraping through with nail biting wins, two weeks in a row. A bit like Collingwood this year. Richmond narrowly avoided Collingwood, who would've given them a good run. Too bad, the neutral fans missed the matchup we wanted.
Click to expand...

What do you mean they lost to inferior opponents? Are you saying they lost to weaker teams than the Cats did? Or teams that were weaker than them?

I’m assuming the first. So I’ll answer that.

I was comparing the 2010 Saints to the 2018 Pies. The 2010 Saints didn’t go 35-8-1. They went 15-6-1. The 2018 Pies went 15-7 and played better football during the finals.

And yeah the Lions losing finals will be forgiven if they win a flag or two. Port Adelaide are now remembered as a great side despite choking even worse three years in a row. If Brisbane win a flag they’ll be remembered as a far greater side than the 2009/10 Saints.
 
Barry_Badrinath said:
And now that we know you're a big old injury apologist Pjays, I'd like to get you thoughts on Richmond's 2019 season.

Round 1: Lost 5x All Australian Alex Rance to an ACL. Season over
Round 2: Lost reigning Coleman medalist and B&F winner Jack Riewoldt. Missed 12 games before returning in round 17
Round 3: Lost club captain and gun midfielder Trent Cotchin. Trent didn't return until round 11 and missed 11 games for the year.
Round 8: Lost the clubs number 1 ruckman Toby Nankervis for 12 weeks. He didn't return until round 21.
Round 13: Lost young gun Jack Higgins in round 13 for the season due to a serious brain injury.

On top of these major ones there were the usual less serious 2-3 game injuries throughout the year. Yet despite this Richmond managed a 16-6 record for the year. I'm interested to know, do you think Richmond's comparatively weaker H&A record could possibly have been partly due to these injuries? Considering you think Carlisle, Greesham and Ryder are enough to potentially reverse a result where St Kilda got flogged.

Do you think it's possible having Rance, Riewoldt, Cotchin & Nankervis all available might've helped Richmond push up towards 18, 19 or possibly even 20 wins for the year? Keeping in mind Richmond won 12 straight to finish the season once they had most of their better players back. Do you believe the 2008 Cats would've still gone 21-1 if they lost that sort of quality so early in the season?

Interested to know since we know you believe injuries can impact a teams fortunes so much. Especially to structurally important players like Rance, Riewoldt, Cotchin and Nankervis.
Click to expand...
But Bazza.We won because we play 21 games at the G.;)
 
Barry_Badrinath said:
What do you mean they lost to inferior opponents? Are you saying they lost to weaker teams than the Cats did? Or teams that were weaker than them?

I’m assuming the first. So I’ll answer that.

I was comparing the 2010 Saints to the 2018 Pies. The 2010 Saints didn’t go 35-8-1. They went 15-6-1. The 2018 Pies went 15-7 and played better football during the finals.

And yeah the Lions losing finals will be forgiven if they win a flag or two. Port Adelaide are now remembered as a great side despite choking even worse three years in a row. If Brisbane win a flag they’ll be remembered as a far greater side than the 2009/10 Saints.
Click to expand...
So..... I'm not allowed to use the Saints 2009 results when they had a near identical side.

But you're allowed to use future hypotheticals to justify that Brisbane aren't a young side who hasn't learnt to deal with finals intensity?

Ah. Right. Richmond apologetics 101!

Oh and no, Collingwood 2018 were not better in finals than 2010 Saints. Collingwood lost their QF, won a semi final by 10. Then lost a tight GF to one of the weaker premiers of recent times. Whilst having undeserved home ground advantage!

The 2010 Saints didn't lose a final in the lead up. Beat the great Geelong who were 17-5 and 148%, comfortably beat the Bulldogs, then drew the GF against one of the better premiers of recent times. A unlucky bounce with 90 seconds left cost us. That's footy!

Lost the rematch easily but that's no shame when you're an older side, playing on the MCG against a younger team who were unbelievably good there all year and won most games there by 40+!
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

PJays said:
So..... I'm not allowed to use the Saints 2009 results when they had a near identical side.

But you're allowed to use future hypotheticals to justify that Brisbane aren't a young side who hasn't learnt to deal with finals intensity?

Ah. Right. Richmond apologetics 101!

Oh and no, Collingwood 2018 were not better in finals than 2010 Saints. Collingwood lost their QF, won a semi final by 10. Then lost a tight GF to one of the weaker premiers of recent times. Whilst having undeserved home ground advantage!

The 2010 Saints didn't lose a final in the lead up. Beat the great Geelong who were 17-5 and 148%, comfortably beat the Bulldogs, then drew the GF against one of the better premiers of recent times. A unlucky bounce with 90 seconds left cost us. That's footy!

Lost the rematch easily but that's no shame when you're an older side, playing on the MCG against a younger team who were unbelievably good there all year and won most games there by 40+!
Click to expand...

You need help.

Barry is dismantling your arguments with ease with the support of objectives facts. You are firing back with ever more and more complex webs of subjective statements to support your baked on theory/wish that the Cats are the best of the four “dynasties.”

You are just making yourself look even more foolish now, if that is possible.
 
Last edited:
119 gets mentioned a bit. What about 118?
It was a game that threw the 69 final series into chaos, RFC proceeding to over run Pies and Blues the next weeks. A jaw dropping moment for a team that barely made the finals.

1969 Semi Final
Geelong
2.1 2.4 3.6 7.7​
49​
Sat 06-Sep-1969 2:30 PM Att: 101,233 Venue: M.C.G.
Richmond
8.3 14.7 20.11 25.17​
167​
Richmond won by 118 pts [Match stats]
 
How do you all define a "dynasty"?

Contending?

Winning premierships?

For mine out of the 4 Geelong are miles in front, they won 3 and are still contending.

If it's winning, then Hawthorn.

But like i said earlier, none come close to Melbourne.
 
PJays said:
If you're claiming Prestia as underdone then I'll claim Hannebery....

The Vlaustin thing was clear as day. Do you seriously think all the commentators were wrong? Even Adam Cooney (from the armchair experts after game show) mentioned it.

There was 3 goals in this, well into the last quarter. After Richmond had that goal review go their way, and had kicked 4 or 5 goals that either: bounced multiple times on the way through, or were snaps that were almost touched.

Saying St Kilda wasn't in this contest is ridiculous.

Ryder won the tap-ruck contest most weeks for St Kilda and hit outs to advantage- an area Nankerkis won against Marshall. Ryder also provides a valuable extra forward option and allows Marshall to do likewise, so his absence threw out the forward structure that was so effective against the Bulldogs. Ryder was 3rd in St Kildas best and fairest on votes/game. Gresham is a very dangerous player on his night, the type you need to break the game open against Richmond and in fact, I recall Gresham doing exactly that, kicking 5 goals at the G vs them in 2017. Carlisle plays a position that we lack depth in and could've used another against Lynch and Riewoldt.

There is no way Richmond's absences were as structurally important as St Kilda's.

I'm not suggesting Richmond was "lucky to win", just that they had much more luck than St Kilda.
Click to expand...
After some excellent posts earlier, you've been sucked into a mud fight you can't win, whining about losing a final due to injuries. Alan Jeans would disown you.
 
PJays said:
So..... I'm not allowed to use the Saints 2009 results when they had a near identical side.

But you're allowed to use future hypotheticals to justify that Brisbane aren't a young side who hasn't learnt to deal with finals intensity?

Ah. Right. Richmond apologetics 101!

Oh and no, Collingwood 2018 were not better in finals than 2010 Saints. Collingwood lost their QF, won a semi final by 10. Then lost a tight GF to one of the weaker premiers of recent times. Whilst having undeserved home ground advantage!

The 2010 Saints didn't lose a final in the lead up. Beat the great Geelong who were 17-5 and 148%, comfortably beat the Bulldogs, then drew the GF against one of the better premiers of recent times. A unlucky bounce with 90 seconds left cost us. That's footy!

Lost the rematch easily but that's no shame when you're an older side, playing on the MCG against a younger team who were unbelievably good there all year and won most games there by 40+!
Click to expand...

A near identical side hey? The 2011 Saints team was near identical too. Maybe we should talk about the 2010/11 Saints instead? Or better yet, maybe we could talk about the teams in question.

“Beat the great Geelong side”. The one that came 3rd and got flogged in the prelim?
“Lost to one of the weaker premiers of recent times”.

“No shame” in losing a Grand Final by 56 points, but there is in losing a non-knockout away final against a higher ranked team by 15 points?

Just lol at how you frame it.
 
PJays said:
OK. Let’s summarise Geelong and Richmond in finals.

Geelong- In 5 years:
  • Lost 3 finals to very good teams, and had two close calls (one against a team that won 19 games in a row).
  • Smashed a few teams- 119 point Grand Final win, 106 point qualifying final win, 73 point prelim win.
  • Won games comfortably against very good teams. (Hawthorn 2011, WC 2011, Coll 2011).

Richmond- In 4 years:
  • Lost 2 finals to lesser teams, and had one close call.
  • Smashed teams, but nowhere near as convincingly as Geelong’s biggest wins.
  • Had comfortable wins, but not against the same quality of opposition.
Take your Richmond glasses off and ask yourself:

Is this even close? Why am I bothering to defend my team when the answer is so obvious?

Relax, just kidding. We all know you’re incapable of taking your Richmond glasses off!
Click to expand...

irony much. (Last sentence)There is no way geelong are clearly ahead of the others as you consistently claim. People could accept you grading them in front of the others, but most of your stuff is highly subjective
A bit like when I said no teams have put in two convincing victories in two successive grand finals like hawks 14-15. But I guess there’s an argument richmond just have. Win another and they are clearly ahead, even though many people couldn’t name a dozen of their players.

as I said, subjective
 
PJays said:
Keep trying to convince yourselves Richmond 2020 was the same side as Richmond 2017 and 2019 when in 2020.....
Click to expand...

Hahahaha. You've spent the last several pages arguing that Geelong of 2011 are the same team as 2007 because they have 14 players in common. Now you're trying to argue that Richmond of 2019 & 2020 aren't the same team when they have 19 players in common!

This just keeps getting better. Nadia Comaneci would be proud of the gymnastics on display.

PJays said:
- Escaped with a tight win against Port, possibly the worst minor premier of my life. ST.Kilda nailed them during the year...in Adelaide!
Click to expand...

Lol not even close. The worst minor premier of my life is the 1997 Saints. They objectively had the worst W/L record. 15 wins, 7 losses then got shown up in the Granny. Port went 14-3, which is on pace for 18-4 in a 22 game season.

PJays said:
- Beat an inexperienced Saints side on their first trip to the finals in 9 years. In a competitive match. Yes, let me just repeat. When your team scores a few luckier-than-average goals, and gets a lucky goal review that is widely panned in the footy world afterwards, but its 17 points the difference well into Q4.... that's a competitive match. Your apologetics need serious work if you're trying to work around those facts.
Click to expand...

Things I learned today:
  1. 5 minutes and 34 seconds is considered "well into the Q4"
  2. Richmond's 2018 preliminary final was actually "a competitive match", because they trailed the Pies by 21 just 7 minutes into Q4. Or is this going to be one of those 14/22 vs 9/22 type arguments where you arbitrarily set the benchmark to "within 18 points" to suit your argument?
This is the problem with using convoluted meaningless gymnastics to suit your arguments. Eventually they all trip over themselves.

The Saints were blown away from the word go and never even looked like challenging. That was the most relaxing final I've ever seen from my club.

PJays said:
- Had to come from 3 or 4 goals down in the GF.
Click to expand...

Lmao. More own goals.

Did you forget Geelong lost the first 3 quarters in 2009 and had to come back?

And more importantly did you forget that the greatest team in the history of the world, the 2011 Cats, also had to come from 3 goals down in the Grand final?

You're getting trapped in a web of your own crap arguments
 
Barry_Badrinath said:
Were Richmond lucky when they were missing Tom Lynch in the final against Brisbane where they broke down completely up forward when targeting a hapless Mabior Chol?

That game actually was fairly close so a couple of key changes could’ve swung the result, rendering your whole point moot.

I like how you mention that Richmond were at full strength, and then talk about how Ryder could’ve nullified Nankervis. Completely oblivious to the fact Nankervis isn’t Richmond’s number 1 ruckman.

Out of curiosity, how does Geelong’s record with injury look over the 5 years? Ottens always seemed to be on the sidelines. Chappy would miss a few games each year. Ablett had the odd niggle here and there. Any key players miss significant time over the 5 year run? Egan was a big loss in 2007.
Click to expand...

they know deep down playing underdone players bit them on the arse in 2008 gf. All the other excuses are nothing
 
Barry_Badrinath said:
Hahahaha. You've spent the last several pages arguing that Geelong of 2011 are the same team as 2007 because they have 14 players in common. Now you're trying to argue that Richmond of 2019 & 2020 aren't the same team when they have 19 players in common!

This just keeps getting better. Nadia Comaneci would be proud of the gymnastics on display.



Lol not even close. The worst minor premier of my life is the 1997 Saints. They objectively had the worst W/L record. 15 wins, 7 losses then got shown up in the Granny. Port went 14-3, which is on pace for 18-4 in a 22 game season.



Things I learned today:

  1. 5 minutes and 34 seconds is considered "well into the Q4"
  2. Richmond's 2018 preliminary final was actually "a competitive match", because they trailed the Pies by 21 just 7 minutes into Q4. Or is this going to be one of those 14/22 vs 9/22 type arguments where you arbitrarily set the benchmark to at within 18 points to suit your argument?

This is the problem with using conveluted meaningless to gymnastics to suit your arguments. Eventually they all trip over themselves.

The Saints were blown away from the word go and never even looked like challenging. That was the most relaxing final I've ever seen from my club.



Lmao. More own goals.

Did you forget Geelong lost the first 3 quarters in 2009 and had to come back?

And more importantly did you forget that the greatest team in the history of the world, the 2011 Cats, also had to come from 3 goals down in the Grand final?

You're getting trapped in a web of your own bias.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

‘only pj claims geelong had the toughest opponents in finals but beat them convincingy too. All of them. In fact in their 4 grand finals I think they won 9 quarters from 16, including 4 straight in 2007 obviously. So 5 from 12 in the other gfs. Lucky to have 3 flags seriously.

honestly when they won in 2007 the place was so happy they finally won one, it went off big time. War is over kind of stuff.

forwarded a few years and they’re drinking so much bathwater we get lectures about how they ‘saved football’ etc etc
 
PJays said:
Oh dear.

Have a listen to the offended Richmond fans. I've really poked the bear!

Nothing like 3 flags to generate a bit of over confidence.

Listening to you lot is eerily reminiscent of Hawks fans circa 2016 who thought the sun shone from Clarko's butt crack.

Keep trying to convince yourselves Richmond 2020 was the same side as Richmond 2017 and 2019 when in 2020.....

- Beaten by a team who's had a double chance 2 years in a row and won.... wait for it. 1 final. Against your lot. Brisbane had multiple chances to end the game in the last quarter and couldn't do it. Richmond only stayed in the game due to Brisbane's inexperience. That's why I texted my brother straight after the game and said Brisbane wouldn't win the flag but Richmond would beat them in a rematch. Except I didn't realise Brisbane were so far off the pace, they'd be incapable of a competitive effort in a home prelim!

- Escaped with a tight win against Port, possibly the worst minor premier of my life. ST.Kilda nailed them during the year...in Adelaide!

- Beat an inexperienced Saints side on their first trip to the finals in 9 years. In a competitive match. Yes, let me just repeat. When your team scores a few luckier-than-average goals, and gets a lucky goal review that is widely panned in the footy world afterwards, but its 17 points the difference well into Q4.... that's a competitive match. Your apologetics need serious work if you're trying to work around those facts.

- Had to come from 3 or 4 goals down in the GF.

Go on. Keep convincing yourselves the gap doesn't appear to be closing!

And I'll circle back to my original point- most premiers have a near full strength team on GF day.

Without getting sidetracked on Richmomd's 2019 home and away season, someone answer me this question- which is actually relevant to my point:

In their 3 flag years, how many key players have Richmond been missing in prelims or GF's?
Click to expand...

Port, saints. Aren’t these the teams geelong beat for their premierships...and of course the colliwobbles?
 
PJays said:
Oh dear.

Have a listen to the offended Richmond fans. I've really poked the bear!

Nothing like 3 flags to generate a bit of over confidence.

Listening to you lot is eerily reminiscent of Hawks fans circa 2016 who thought the sun shone from Clarko's butt crack.

Keep trying to convince yourselves Richmond 2020 was the same side as Richmond 2017 and 2019 when in 2020.....

- Beaten by a team who's had a double chance 2 years in a row and won.... wait for it. 1 final. Against your lot. Brisbane had multiple chances to end the game in the last quarter and couldn't do it. Richmond only stayed in the game due to Brisbane's inexperience. That's why I texted my brother straight after the game and said Brisbane wouldn't win the flag but Richmond would beat them in a rematch. Except I didn't realise Brisbane were so far off the pace, they'd be incapable of a competitive effort in a home prelim!

- Escaped with a tight win against Port, possibly the worst minor premier of my life. ST.Kilda nailed them during the year...in Adelaide!

- Beat an inexperienced Saints side on their first trip to the finals in 9 years. In a competitive match. Yes, let me just repeat. When your team scores a few luckier-than-average goals, and gets a lucky goal review that is widely panned in the footy world afterwards, but its 17 points the difference well into Q4.... that's a competitive match. Your apologetics need serious work if you're trying to work around those facts.

- Had to come from 3 or 4 goals down in the GF.

Go on. Keep convincing yourselves the gap doesn't appear to be closing!

And I'll circle back to my original point- most premiers have a near full strength team on GF day.

Without getting sidetracked on Richmomd's 2019 home and away season, someone answer me this question- which is actually relevant to my point:

In their 3 flag years, how many key players have Richmond been missing in prelims or GF's?
Click to expand...


 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
Combined Best 22 of dynasty teams in 21st century
18 19 20 21 22
Replies
534
Views
14K
doppleganger
doppleganger
RUNVS
  • Poll
Who is the best Ruckman of the 21st Century?
2 3
Replies
69
Views
4K
GoldbergsGold
GoldbergsGold
RUNVS
  • Poll
Who is the best midfielder of the 21st century?
7 8 9 10 11
Replies
254
Views
6K
RUNVS
RUNVS
Cleansweep17
  • Poll
21st century SOA match
2
Replies
34
Views
1K
Guardian Hawk
G
RUNVS
  • Poll
Who is the best Key Forward of the 21st Century?
2 3 4 5
Replies
102
Views
4K
GoldbergsGold
GoldbergsGold
RUNVS
  • Poll
Who is the best Key Defender of the 21st Century?
101 102 103 104 105
Replies
3K
Views
38K
Cleansweep17
Cleansweep17
PowerfulPies2023
  • Poll
Dunstall vs Lockett vs Carey vs Ablett vs Lloyd vs Franklin vs J Brown - Who is the most Elite of them all?
3 4 5 6 7
Replies
151
Views
6K
Waterhouzin
W
Back
Top