Liam Jurrah being held by police -Sen

[TheGreatGrundy]

Just because something is traditional does not necessarily make it good. Anyone who watched the 7.30pm report last night on traditional hunting of dugong and in particular turtles would have been appalled at the horrific cruelty to which the animals were treated. The indigenous folk on the islands and along the Qld coast who featured in this report cut the poor turtles up while they were alive, then boasted that they were untouchable because they were given special permission to kill these protected creatures in the name of tradition. I thought there would be more respect shown animals in indigenous culture, but the torturing of the animals would not have been out of place place in mainland China, where animals are often killed in the nastiest of ways.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Yes we can and no it's not. If you want to live in Australia and enjoy all the benefits that come with it you can't go around chopping people up with machete's to settle personal disputes. That's not on, and those responsible should cop the full force of Australian law.

I agree, all I'm saying is that I can sympathize with Aboriginals who may feel compelled to act.

And unfortunately most do not enjoy the benefits of living in Australia.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Just because something is traditional does not necessarily make it good. Anyone who watched the 7.30pm report last night on traditional hunting of dugong and in particular turtles would have been appalled at the horrific cruelty to which the animals were treated. The indigenous folk on the islands and along the Qld coast who featured in this report cut the poor turtles up while they were alive, then boasted that they were untouchable because they were given special permission to kill these protected creatures in the name of tradition. I thought there would be more respect shown animals in indigenous culture, but the torturing of the animals would not have been out of place place in mainland China, where animals are often killed in the nastiest of ways.

Does not make it good in OUR culture.

I doubt many Aboriginals would be appalled by that behavior.

It is their tradition, I doubt they are doing it to simply 'torture' an animal.

 

[Ohhh Errol]

did you watch the feature Puppet Master? It was a ****ing disgrace. Inhumane, i dont care where you from.

Did You see it, or are you just making an ill informed assumption?

 

[Crows4Eva]

I didn't actually say that they "shouldn't", just that it is "immoral".

Realistically, this wouldn't be our country if we didn't piss on the laws and traditions of it's native people.

There might be some truth in that, however in recent times aboriginal communities have been allowed more latitiude to live by their own laws and traditions, certain allowances that would normally be against the laws of Australia have been allowed to an extent in the name of tradition, but most other laws still apply.

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

dont worry he will come back and play for collingwood in a few years

 

[WCE_phil]

I agree. I'm just speaking in realistic terms.

It's a very delicate situation because you're right, we can't have a group of our citizens (whether they wish to be or not) running amok doing as they please.

However, I also can understand how Aboriginal people may feel aggrieved at being forced to follow our laws.

I guess thats why they destroy tens of millions of dollars of free housing and infrastructure provided for them every year, it's ok though they obviously have an excuse. They are aboriginal they can do whatever they like and continue to blame every person for things that happened hundreds of years ago that may not have even related to them directly.

Just remember the aboriginal people weren't one people at all but rather lots of separate peoples, with different laws and languages. It's why whenever anyone discusses the 'aboriginal' language its laughable. So people know by this societies ridiculous social structure i am permitted to discuss these topics as i'm 1/16th aboriginal...... (i too am as white as andrew walker)

 

[Lach72]

Liam has now been charged

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

did you watch the feature Puppet Master? It was a ****ing disgrace. Inhumane, i dont care where you from.

Did You see it, or are you just making an ill informed assumption?

No, I didn't.

But what a couple of you are showing is ignorance at it's finest.

It may well have been inhumane, but it's a part of their culture.

We can't go around trying to change everything which makes us uncomfortable...

Oh, wait..

 

[Lach72]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...ld-machete-brawl/story-fn7x8me2-1226294182565

 

[WCE_phil]

Does not make it good in OUR culture.

I doubt many Aboriginals would be appalled by that behavior.

It is their tradition, I doubt they are doing it to simply 'torture' an animal.

I bet the manner in which indonesians slaughter our live animals or the way those in middle eastern countries slaughter animals is perfectly acceptable in their cultures as well. You can't be appalled and disgusted at one and expect results without the same standards being held towards the other.

 

[Hollow Knight]

So people know by this societies ridiculous social structure i am permitted to discuss these topics as i'm 1/16th aboriginal...... (i too am as white as andrew walker)

Measuring aboriginality by family trees and western conceptions of what defines a kinship group and your connection to other people...

You still speak with a colonial tongue and a colonial epistemology white man.

I despise the bipolar discourse in which these issues are discussed (witness quotes such as "there is one law in Australia). It's a messy situation that can only be adequately disected in shades of grey. Unfortunately our education system tells us how to think and doesn't challenge us to introspectively explore why and how we think like we do and why others do so differently.

That's all I've got to say on this topic, the more I say, the more I leave myself open to being misconstrued and labelled as "excusing indigenous people from their actions on the basis of race" or advocating violence and murder, which is patently untrue.

Just an unfortunate story all around.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

I guess thats why they destroy tens of millions of dollars of free housing and infrastructure provided for them every year, it's ok though they obviously have an excuse. They are aboriginal they can do whatever they like and continue to blame every person for things that happened hundreds of years ago that may not have even related to them directly.

Just remember the aboriginal people weren't one people at all but rather lots of separate peoples, with different laws and languages. It's why whenever anyone discusses the 'aboriginal' language its laughable. So people know by this societies ridiculous social structure i am permitted to discuss these topics as i'm 1/16th aboriginal...... (i too am as white as andrew walker)

That's a really simplistic view; the government has never put in serious steps to helping the aboriginal culture.

If we want them to abide by our laws, we have to give them every chance to succeed in our country.

That might even mean that we advantage the aboriginal community in some areas (specifically education) for a while.

For the record, I completely agree that if Jurrah is to be found guilty that he should be punished in accordance with our laws.

I guess this situation has just gotten me into a contemplative state of mind at the moment.

 

[Blues_Man]

That is simply not true. Tribal justice is also dealt with stones and lately rubber hoses, machetes and even opened cans are used to slice throats. I know someone who was part of a top end mob who was asked to take part in slicing open the throat of a woman to let her bleed out. I can't remember if he did partake but she was left in shed or under a house on stilts and bleed out.
Sorry to mention that horrible story but spear is not the only punishment. That is one particular punishment where they push the punishment spear, which is jagged, through the thigh of a man. The only way out is to pull it right through and the man walks with a limp for the rest of his life.

Well if that is the case then it's just not on ..i don't care if youré black pink green or yellow ..you abide by Australian laws.

We can and should never turn a blind eye to Murder and attempted Murder..under any civilized countries justice system.

I'm also of the opinion that they should not be allowed to hunt Dugongs and Turtles using modern day equipment ...if they want to continue traditional hunting ..then do it using traditional methods...that will at least give the Dugongs and Turtles some chance of not being wiped out.

 

[Macca19]

Silly boy.

 

[Crows4Eva]

There's a fine line between debate and a flame war, some people should keep that in mind when making their comments and opinions. Understandably, some may feel particularly passionate about certain topic however that isn't an excuse for making inflamitory or sarcastic comments.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

I bet the manner in which indonesians slaughter our live animals or the way those in middle eastern countries slaughter animals is perfectly acceptable in their cultures as well. You can't be appalled and disgusted at one and expect results without the same standards being held towards the other.

I respect each groups right to their own culture, whatever I feel about the things they do.

 

[Ohhh Errol]

So Puppet Master is basically saying an aboriginal can do no wrong.

Eating turtle is a tradition, i can accept that. The manner is which the filmed were carrying out that tradition was inhumane and unacceptable. But I'm supposed to just accept that? What would be the problem in educating people to show them a more humane way of carrying out their long standing tradition?

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

No, like it or not aboriginals live under the same laws we all do, if they get the benefits they get the punishments. You cant go cutting people up with machete.

Reminds me of the kind of people that tell us all that Aboriginal people have had everything given to them for far too long and should all pull their heads in and get over everything etc.

Go have a look at the Close the Gap stats. Or look at the fact that 70% of the broader community finish high school as opposed to 3.5 % of indigenous people. Or the fact that Aboriginal people account for 70% of the boys and girls in maximum security prisons around Australia, even though we (as Aboriginal people) account for just 2.5% of the population. I could literally go on and on about physical abuse, sexual abuse, alcohol problems, petrol sniffing, drugs...

Unfortunately donbooger, you talk about benefits of living in Australia, yet you dont stop to think about the fact that for mob like the Walpiri, they dont have a whole lot of benefit. They hover between a culture and history that is ingrained in their dna and has been for thousands of years, and a white Australian culture that by and large has been foisted upon them by Australian governments.

And lets stop to think about government. Government (when talking about indigenous Australia, have by and large, failed Aboriginal people in a massive way, and there are two main reasons for that.

1. When talking about the average politician, you need to remember, we arent even getting the cream of the crop as far as business people/talented Aussies go. A close mate of mine is a big wheeling businessman and just left a huge multinational company to head up the Australian leg of another multinational company. He'd make an OUTSTANDING politician, and is more than interested in politics. Yet when I press him on why he hasnt ever gone down that path, he smiles and replies that he makes literally 5 times in business (around a million dollars a year) what he would make as a politician. Our most brilliant and achieving minds are in corporate Australia, both here and overseas.

2. Politicians are elected for 3 years. They are primarily concerned with being re elected. They arent going to pass expensive policy that will take 5, 10 and sometimes 20 years to show fruit. Therefore, a lot of the "handouts" Aboriginal people have received over the years have been short sighted, ill conceived policy designed to "make a politician look like he/she is doing something" The one benefit a politician gets financially is if they are elected for 3 terms. Then they get a pension, secretary, office, free flights etc. That 3rd term is what many of them are ALL about.

So before you go on about "they get all the benefits" etc, please, stop, close your eyes, and try to spend 20 minutes imagining that you are an Aboriginal person, that has grown up in a family that has been affected by many of the things we now know indigenous people have been affected by.

Genocide
Land displacement
having their culture completely taken away (my family were brutally flogged every time they were cught speaking their language, telling a dreaming story etc
not encouraged and often not allowed to go to school (thus helping create the figure of 3.5% of Aboriginal people now have their VCE or equivalent)
Growing up and seeing the only people from your entire race to be noticed or respected are footballers, and if you're not a footballer, where does that leave you?
Alcohol problems
A complete culture of hopelessness in many communities - and the social problems that then leads to - Physical violence, Sexual abuse, alcoholism, petrol sniffing etc
A life expectancy that is 17 years less any other demographic in Australia
Communities where people are literally STARVING! (Red Cross last year flew pallets of food into the APYlands because of this)


I could go on and on, but Im just hoping that through this whole tragic case, maybe SOME people can stop and realise that EMPATHY and a real desire to truly understand a people that are for all intents and purposes a completely different race, living in their own country, within a larger country.

There is a massive gap in Australia right now, and I pray that through what is a tragic tragic situation, maybe we can use it to try to really close that gap and understand and empathise with each other more.

 

[Ron The Bear]

No, like it or not aboriginals live under the same laws we all do, if they get the benefits they get the punishments. You cant go cutting people up with machete.

Agree; otherwise, where do you draw the line? Do you allow Muslims to cut off someone's hand for adultery, or drinking alcohol? After all, they're Australians like the rest of us. I understand this case involves a remote community, but catering to such divisions is dangerous. I don't see a difference in seriousness between hacking someone about the head with a machete or shooting them with a Kalashnikov.

 

[Ohhh Errol]

So Majak goes out and machete's the owner of the dog for killing his family friend's daughter and he will be given the same accomodations as Liam Jurrah today? Yeah right.

 

[thegrach]

I bet the manner in which indonesians slaughter our live animals or the way those in middle eastern countries slaughter animals is perfectly acceptable in their cultures as well. You can't be appalled and disgusted at one and expect results without the same standards being held towards the other.

Spot on.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Does not make it good in OUR culture.

I doubt many Aboriginals would be appalled by that behavior.

It is their tradition, I doubt they are doing it to simply 'torture' an animal.

If you did not see the report you cannot really comment. To say that aborigines would not find the practice cruel is demeaning to aborigine people in general, because anyone who can accept the cruelty in the report has no concept of animal welfare, no matter what their tradition may be. Personally, I would hope that indigenous people living elsewhere on the mainland would be as appalled as me at the cruelty.

 

[Ohhh Errol]

Puppet Master labelled some as ignorant, it's amazing the blinkers people put on when it's a player from their club involved.

The post above mine tells it how it is.

I respect each groups right to their own culture, whatever I feel about the things they do.

Go ask the women in Afghanistan how they feel about your comments. Comments from a muppet indeed.

 

[Blues_Man]

There is a massive gap in Australia right now, and I pray that through what is a tragic tragic situation, maybe we can use it to try to really close that gap and understand and empathise with each other more.

Yes ..their ancestors have had it rough ..i get that ..so have mine ..they were sent here on convict ships....but i am responsible for my actions and i expect others to be responsible for theirs as well .