Autopsy Pies go down to Hawks 101-67

[76woodenspooners]

Regardless, I can't begin to understand how you can move a player from a position when they're showing promise and growth.

When it works it looks like a masterstroke (Leon Davis)

When it doesn't it looks like a daft idea that we were stupid for even trying (Alex Fasolo)

Particularly when you have no viable replacement in mind.

It depends on priorities and needs I guess. Us fans love to see our heros take screamers and kick goals. But a lot of the strategy around the game these days happens in the defensive lines. It's where many of the attacks are created from. It wasn't so long ago that we had the concept of the "back 6" whose primary role was to stop the opposition from scoring. These days, the defensive lines still need to do that, but in addition to that they also have an important role to play launching attacks on goal.

 

[jimmy35]

It unfortunately looks like more of the same. Hopefully I’m wrong and our magic game plan kicks in and away we go.

 

[Chrispiesssss]

It unfortunately looks like more of the same. Hopefully I’m wrong and our magic game plan kicks in and away we go.

Our magic plan is to hope for Cox play with sticky fingers....

 

[Dogs_Playing_Poker]

I think our problem is the intelligence of our players. I cant work out why in the last quarter Jeremy Howe was running into goal about 50 out and he chose to chip the kick to the goal square where Ben Reid had the ball punched away. Jeremy remember how in the fist quarter you kicked a cracking goal which travelled about 60 metres? Just thinking out a loud here but why not kick the goal?

Message to Our forward crumbers! Ok Cox had a dirty night I counted he dropped 128 marks (may not be accurate).... generally when you drop a mark it will finish front and center which you would say would be a good spot to be for a crumbing forward. There you go there is 128 goals (may not be accurate) I have gifted you!

 

[Maggie5]

I think our problem is the intelligence of our players. I cant work out why in the last quarter Jeremy Howe was running into goal about 50 out and he chose to chip the kick to the goal square where Ben Reid had the ball punched away. Jeremy remember how in the fist quarter you kicked a cracking goal which travelled about 60 metres? Just thinking out a loud here but why not kick the goal?

Message to Our forward crumbers! Ok Cox had a dirty night I counted he dropped 128 marks (may not be accurate).... generally when you drop a mark it will finish front and center which you would say would be a good spot to be for a crumbing forward. There you go there is 128 goals (may not be accurate) I have gifted you!

I have wondered this for sometime.

So many times a handball was on or a short kick if only they looked around but oh no, they decided to kick to our one on three.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Our magic plan is to hope for Cox play with sticky fingers....

Credit to Bucks for the way he develops his forward gameplan over time. It's gone from kick it to Clokey, to kick it to Blairy, to kick it to Coxy. It must really keep the opposition coaches guessing.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

It won't matter if the media goes hard on the club. McGuire is more stubborn than Buckley and has lost all objectivity over 20 years in the job. Eddie has absolutely no idea:

a) That's there's deep seeded problems and
b) Where the problems lie

This "review" that took place was obviously nothing more than a smokescreen to help appease the unrest among the supporter base (as many of you noted at the time quite astutely).

 

[Leviathan Pie]

Article in Tomorrow's Age by Michael Gleeson

One game in, just one game, but it all felt so familiar. It felt like the same old Collingwood.
One game is not enough to draw a definitive conclusion but this felt like 101 games, not just the first of a new season. Their hope is that it was just a bad first-up game, but the one bad game had a lot of similar themes.

Jamie Elliott and Daniel Wells were not fit enough for the first game. Again. Jordan De Goey was suspended by the club and missing the first game. Again.
These things were true before the game. These things were true in the game: still they have too few players who can kick well. Still they have too few players with leg speed. Still there is no small crumbing pressure forward. Still they look impotent forward with Elliott out. Still they are unable to lock down on small forwards (Luke Breust enjoys playing Collingwood).

True, the arrival of Sam Murray on Saturday night offered one of the few bright notes for Collingwood, suggesting that they might have finally found one good small running defender, but against a Hawthorn forward line of Cyril, Breust, Puopolo and Impey the Magpies needed more than one Sam Murray. Collingwood’s last-round win last year now already feels like a dead cat bounce. That was the game that set up the idea that Mason Cox and Brodie Grundy could play in the same set up with Cox the target forward.

On Saturday night he was a target only for his own club’s fans. Cox played a terrible game. Initially he couldn’t hold marks amid a clatter of bodies, then he couldn’t hold marks when he was competing against himself. Buckley might be saved a decision on him by the high bump that could see him resting next week.

The problem Collingwood has is that Cox is structurally important to them, yet he is a player of uncertain ability and future. He remains a project player but one who is playing in one of their most critical positions in a side that has struggled in attack. Collingwood play a game that looks to deliver the ball into attack long and high, relying on Cox to mark it or force a free kick from panicky defenders chopping or holding on. Neither thing happened – Cox didn’t mark and Hawthorn didn’t panic. Ben Reid was mobile and threatening, but it was not enough to be damaging. Ben Crocker looked surprisingly good, but now he too is injured. The forward set-up to kick long to talls is remarkable for the fact that they have no genuine crumbing forward in the team to gather the spilt ball. Callum Brown is the most obvious candidate to develop into that role. Tim Broomhead is another who should be used exclusively there and cultivated to do the job.

Collingwood had their club review last year and made a host of low-profile changes and a couple of high profile ones. They got rid of the CEO and they kept the coach. Changes will take time to filter through, but first impressions are Collingwood presents as they did last year, as a team neither bad enough nor good enough to give hope. They looked desperately mediocre. The changes they made last year acknowledged that the problems were many and varied and not limited to coaching – the list for instance was over-rated. Still they have too many ordinary players and on Saturday even their better ones were poor.

Adam Treloar was traded for two first-round draft picks – both of them at seven. If he arrived and played like Josh Kelly he would be worth it, but he hasn’t.

Compare what Hawthorn did instead. They only needed pick 14 to get Tom Mitchell. In the last two games, Mitchell has had more than 100 possessions against Collingwood. This time there was no doubting Mitchell’s record number of touches hurt Collingwood.

For a side that expedited list changes and theoretically bottomed out, they are suffering acutely from the fact when they invested heavily in the draft they came up empty-handed. The Matt Scharenberg, Nathan Freeman year is a disaster that is still being felt. Yes, they used a pick from Freeman to bring in James Aish, but Aish has yet to perform as a top 10 quality player. When you invest in top ten talent you need a better return than Collingwood got.
Taylor Adams was brought in when they ushered Heath Shaw out. Adams is tough but not defensive enough, and he turns the ball over too often.

It is only round one, but it does not feel like a one-game sample, it feels like deja vu. And with a road ahead that reads GWS, Carlton, Adelaide away, Essendon and Richmond it could be a grim feel by round six.

The two No.7 draft picks for Treloar makes me ill.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

It won't matter if the media goes hard on the club. McGuire is more stubborn than Buckley and has lost all objectivity over 20 years in the job. Eddie has absolutely no idea:

a) That's there's deep seeded problems and
b) Where the problems lie

This "review" that took place was obviously nothing more than a smokescreen to help appease the unrest among the supporter base (as many of you noted at the time quite astutely).

Considering what we know about Eddie etc, I'm not sure how anyone else could come to another conclusion at the time?

 

[Somebody]

Only round 1, and I just don’t care any more. Furious that Eddie’s ego will ensure that this is the 7th wasted year of Buckley’s reign as coach. Used to like and respect Eddie. Now wish that he and Buckley would just stand down for the good of the club. Need a clean out and fresh start right from the top.

That could be a good move coz you'll have hope again for another 3 or 4 years!

 

[Roverjg]

The two No.7 draft picks for Treloar makes me ill.

At the time it was considered a masterstroke. He was considered top 5 in the AFL. Unfortunately he, like every other recruit that has come to us in recent years, has regressed....considerably

 

[loki04]

I think our problem is the intelligence of our players. I cant work out why in the last quarter Jeremy Howe was running into goal about 50 out and he chose to chip the kick to the goal square where Ben Reid had the ball punched away. Jeremy remember how in the fist quarter you kicked a cracking goal which travelled about 60 metres? Just thinking out a loud here but why not kick the goal?

Message to Our forward crumbers! Ok Cox had a dirty night I counted he dropped 128 marks (may not be accurate).... generally when you drop a mark it will finish front and center which you would say would be a good spot to be for a crumbing forward. There you go there is 128 goals (may not be accurate) I have gifted you!

Issue with Cox was on many occasions he didn't even compete or get his hands to it Hawk opponent pushed him under the ball and a 2nd hawk was often waiting behind to take easy mark!

 

[Finnishpie]

The two No.7 draft picks for Treloar makes me ill.

The comparison of what Hawthorn paid for Mitchell is painful.

 

[loki04]

At the time it was considered a masterstroke. He was considered top 5 in the AFL. Unfortunately he, like every other recruit that has come to us in recent years, has regressed....considerably

No it wasn't. It was considered a great pick up but a heavy price. The fact is if not for DAve Matthews and Richmonds collusion he would of cost us a first and 2nd round only, a fair trade price.
Gubby was almost signed off on it, but Dave Matthews stopped it (needed his signature to go through) and brought the AFL in because he wanted Treloar at his old team in Richmond; who at the same time upped the offer to their 2 firsts (despite knowing treloar didn't want to go there).


Dylan Shiel and Treloar used to do a lot of 1-2 bursts out of the centre they complimented each other as teams couldn't run with both, GWS used Treloar much more outside of the contests. He gets caught inside the packs and flat footed with us far too often.

 

[jackcass]

For a board to extend and then sack in the first year of a contract is harakiri

Not at all.

 

[loki04]

That could be a good move coz you'll have hope again for another 3 or 4 years!

If nothing else!

 

[Leviathan Pie]

At the time it was considered a masterstroke. He was considered top 5 in the AFL. Unfortunately he, like every other recruit that has come to us in recent years, has regressed....considerably

When was it considered a masterstroke......?

 

[Mongo Ming]

It unfortunately looks like more of the same. Hopefully I’m wrong and our magic game plan kicks in and away we go.

I think our current gameplan is to run around like chooks without heads until a Deus Ex Machina kicks in.

 

[MarkT2]

I wasn't on the board in 2005 when Collingwood was being flogged but I was certainly watching. We finished in 15th place with just 5 wins, fortunately ahead of Carlton. I can imagine the degree of frustration, disappointment and heartfelt anguish on these pages. Calls for Mick Malthouse to go would certainly be numerous. I don't wish to down play supporters disappointment at loosing on Saturday night but last year there were games when Collingwood looked coordinated, structured and even skilled. Games against GWS, Geelong, Adelaide and Melbourne were a few I recall easily. Sure we didn't win them all but they all showed the elements everyone wants to see.

I watched the 2005 team evolve into the 2010 team. Our list in 2010 contained 12 of the players that were pasted 5 years before (T Cloke, L Davis, A Didak , J Fraser, B Johnson, T Lockyer, H Lumumba, N Maxwell, S OBree, S Presigiacomo, H Shaw, D Swan), 8 of whom played in the GF. (Presti outed himself). My point is that there is a basis in the current list that the club is building on. In their wisdom, at the end of last year they chose to minimise the tinkering with that list. I've no idea what plans they have for the 2018 draft but I suspect one mega player wont do the job. One certainty is that players will go and strategic decisions will be made on who we need. No team always gets this right of course.

As disappointed as I was on Saturday night I'm not ready to burn the barn. There's a long way to go this season.

The 2004/5 down years were on the back of 2 grand finals with the coach taking over a wooden spoon side 2 years before making the GF. The coach had 2 flags to his name prior to that. I have never been a great MM fan but he had the credibility that success brings so sticking with him at that time could be justified. We are 6 years into the current coach's tenture and not one year has seen more wins than the last. The second year of his tenure we were in disarray and exited players as a result - instead of the coach. That required improvement to justify and that has not come.

IN any case, the 2005 team did not evolve into the 2010 team. We added the virtually the entire goal to goal line (Cloke was drafted 2004 and Reid, Brown & Dawes in 2006). We drafted Pendlebury & Thomas in 2005. We won the 2010 flag in the 2005 and 2006 drafts with some help from the 2009 recruitmet of Ball & Jolly.

The prioprity pick system won't land us a Pendlebury & Thomas combo again.

We are 3 good drafts off having a list that targetted recruiting can fill the holes in but unless we have a better talent spotting and coaching set up we are not in the ball game at all. Derek Hine's move from talent spoting to list management was a complete disaster on both fronts.

There has obvioulsy been plenty said about the coach. He was always going to be extended no matter what the results. Right now I can see a watershed moment building. The very patient natives are finally getting restless. The improvement won't come, not sufficiently anyway. The president's power base is being eroded and will be by the week as more people come to realise that ego's don't make appointements good one's and therefore aren't a reason to retain someone.

 

[soreplums]

We were second to the ball pretty much all night and then all our players got drawn to the ball carrier for them to give an easy handball to a team mate in space. Makes moving the ball and hitting targets much easier.

 

[TheBaron]

The 2004/5 down years were on the back of 2 grand finals with the coach taking over a wooden spoon side 2 years before making the GF. The coach had 2 flags to his name prior to that. I have never been a great MM fan but he had the credibility that success brings so sticking with him at that time could be justified. We are 6 years into the current coach's tenture and not one year has seen more wins than the last. The second year of his tenure we were in disarray and exited players as a result - instead of the coach. That required improvement to justify and that has not come.

IN any case, the 2005 team did not evolve into the 2010 team. We added the virtually the entire goal to goal line (Cloke was drafted 2004 and Reid, Brown & Dawes in 2006). We drafted Pendlebury & Thomas in 2005. We won the 2010 flag in the 2005 and 2006 drafts with some help from the 2009 recruitmet of Ball & Jolly.

The prioprity pick system won't land us a Pendlebury & Thomas combo again.

We are 3 good drafts off having a list that targetted recruiting can fill the holes in but unless we have a better talent spotting and coaching set up we are not in the ball game at all. Derek Hine's move from talent spoting to list management was a complete disaster on both fronts.

There has obvioulsy been plenty said about the coach. He was always going to be extended no matter what the results. Right now I can see a watershed moment building. The very patient natives are finally getting restless. The improvement won't come, not sufficiently anyway. The president's power base is being eroded and will be by the week as more people come to realise that ego's don't make appointements good one's and therefore aren't a reason to retain someone.

Yes, you're right, MM had two GF appearance behind him prior to the dulldrums of the 2000s. Whichever way you interpret the word evolve 8 members of the 15th placed 2005 list played in the 2010 final. So 14 new players were drafted in the intermediate years which was my point on list growth. We need to be very strategic with drafting and recruiting in the immediate future. I'm sure the Hine would say that's what they do every year. McCaffer, Maxwell, Lamumba and I think Wellingham started as rookies, Thomas and Pendlebury were certainly good gets. I believe it was Jolly and Ball in 2009 that gave the team what it needed.

Clearly you'd like sweeping change that may happen in time who knows. I'm not one of the revolutionaries. I just hope we both get the success we want.

 

[MagpieBat]

Considering what we know about Eddie etc, I'm not sure how anyone else could come to another conclusion at the time?

“A rule of government is never look into anything you don’t have to and never start an inquiry unless you know what its findings will be.”

 

[Somebody]

When was it considered a masterstroke......?

last year everyone including on this board was v happy with AT. I still think he's a v good player but so was buckley.
(I'm not saying he is as good as Bucks was but that's not my point)

 

[Somebody]

IT would be interesting if Bucks was swapped with a successful coach like Clarkson or chris scott and see how the 2 teams go in next 2 years. Will never happen of course.

 

[mike123]

No it wasn't. It was considered a great pick up but a heavy price. The fact is if not for DAve Matthews and Richmonds collusion he would of cost us a first and 2nd round only, a fair trade price.
Gubby was almost signed off on it, but Dave Matthews stopped it (needed his signature to go through) and brought the AFL in because he wanted Treloar at his old team in Richmond; who at the same time upped the offer to their 2 firsts (despite knowing treloar didn't want to go there).


Dylan Shiel and Treloar used to do a lot of 1-2 bursts out of the centre they complimented each other as teams couldn't run with both, GWS used Treloar much more outside of the contests. He gets caught inside the packs and flat footed with us far too often.

You'd think with all the inside mids we have on our list we'd be able to release Treloar on the outside.